Not Overthinking

Ali

My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.

Taimur

I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.

Ali

And you're listening to Not Overthinking.

Taimur

The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.

Ali

Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how you doing today?

Taimur

How am I doing today? Um, yeah, I think I'm doing pretty well actually. This week was a was an interesting week for the company. We just moved into our own apartment in London. So now we have a place where Lucas can live and I'll sort of live there. 50/50. And we'll kind of work there and yeah, Happy Days.

Ali

That's actually pretty cool. I'm quite excited for you. Have you added me to the guest list or something?

Taimur

No, I think we want to do up the place. And we'll probably have like a housewarming. And yeah, I think it's nice, because like anytime, any sort of friends or family or kind of in central London need a place to crash, you know, there we are.

Ali

Okay, but you haven't added me to the guest list.

Taimur

I'll add you to the, I will tell the concierge to let you in.

Ali

Oh, perfect. So it's not like a key that I have to.

Taimur

Not really, no. It's like, no, how's your week been?

Ali

It's been good man. I've been on call pretty much all day, every day. I mean, I leave the house at half past six in the morning, and I get home at like half past 10 at night. And then I go to sleep and then I repeat the process. And that was for like four days in a row. But then I had a whole day off on Friday to make up for this. And on Friday, I kind of I went into Cambridge Town Center. I did some coffee shop hopping and marked some essays, I did a supervision. I went to the Addenbrooke's Pantomime, which was excellent. So I had a pretty packed day on Friday, after these long hours, kind of 15 hour long days of being on call.

Taimur

Nice.

Ali

So before we get started with this episode. Taimur, what do you want to do in 2020?

Taimur

In 2020, what do I want to do? The top of my list is probably joining an online learning community that offers membership with meaning with much to explore. I am referring, of course to Skillshare, our sponsor for this episode. Skillshare, like I said is an online learning community with classes courses, what are we calling them?

Ali

We're calling them classes.

Taimur

Classes.

Ali

1000s of classes.

Taimur

1000s of classes on..

Ali

On a huge range of disciplines.

Taimur

basically, anything you can think of.

Ali

Basically anything you can think of. They've got illustration, graphic design, photography, UI design, that's user interface designer, creative writing, animation, fine art, music and video production, film and video Marketing, productivity, web development, all sorts of things like that.

Taimur

Yeah, I think the thing I think is really cool about Skillshare is is the sort of community aspect. And I've said this on the podcast a bunch of times, like, in the past, when I was trying to learn new things like learning to code or learning photography, the thing that actually let me do it was the fact that I had this one particular online forum, you know, where I could just ask questions and sort of, you know, hang out with other people who are also trying to learn this thing. And that makes a massive difference. And that's like, one of the best things about Skillshare is like, if you're doing this course, you also have this community of people who are doing this class, you also have this community of people who you can hang out with and kind of learn from.

Ali

Yeah, that's very true. And I've got my own class on Skillshare, about how to edit videos. It's called: "From Beginner to YouTuber" which I thought, you know, had a bit of a ring to it. But every day I get an email saying these are the discussions that are happening in your classes community page. And it's people asking questions, and other people replying to those questions. And occasionally, I go in and reply to questions as well. So it's actually genuinely quite a nice kind of community feeling.

Taimur

I think you should stop paying Not Overthinking for plugging your Skillshare course every single episode.

Ali

Class, Taimur. Not a course. But yeah, my Skillshare class is one of the sponsors of this podcast. There's another really good one that I like by my internet friend, Thomas Frank, which is all about how to develop a productivity system. And he's actually got a new one for 2020, which is actually really good. It's about how to, essentially habit forming, and like how to create good habits that stick over time. So I've been starting watching some of the videos on that, and I think them this is some pretty good stuff.

Taimur

So what should people do if they want to take a class on Skillshare?

Ali

Well, people can join Skillshare by going on skillshare.com/notoverthinking. That's skillshare.com/notoverthinking. And with that, you'll get a two month free trial. And then the annual premium subscription is less than $10 a month. So you know, for the price of like a lunch or like your Netflix subscription. You're getting 1000s of classes and all sorts of things to help you learn be a better person and learn more skills in 2020. Isn't that fun?

Taimur

It is indeed. What are we talking about this week?

Ali

So this week, we're going to be doing a book discussion, and you'll be very excited to know that we're talking about "The Courage To Be Disliked" which is one of the very few books that you've ever read.

Taimur

That's true. Yeah.

Ali

One of maybe five books that you've read.

Taimur

Yes, it's in the top five.

Ali

So the final two Harry Potter books are on this list. "The Courage To Be Disliked" is on this list. Is there any other book..

Taimur

I've read the whole Twilight series. That's what like? three books? four books? Maybe I've read like seven.

Ali

Okay, fantastic. What is "The Courage To Be Disliked" rank amongst the hierarchy of Twilight, the final two Harry Potter books and to that.

Taimur

I think it is actually like, I don't read that many non-fiction books as books, I read lots of articles and things. It is one of the few kind of non-fiction books that I have read and it was kind of glued to. Probably like the only one. And that had actually had like, a ton of novel ideas and concepts that I was like whoa, okay, let's hear this, you know, that kind of thing. Whereas usually with like a non-fiction book, it's like, you know, it's just like reframing stuff that you already have seen in some different form. Whereas this was actually like, quite novel and sort of daring stuff.

Ali

So the title of the book is: "The Courage To Be Disliked" subtitle how to free yourself, change your life and achieve real happiness, which sounds like an absolute formula for a self help book. I think it's a testament to the quality of the book the fact that you've read it and rave about it, even though your whole brand is based around being a self help hater.

Taimur

Right. I think I agree with that.

Ali

Anyway, can you give us a summary of what the book is actually about? And then we'll kind of dig into our kind of main points and highlights and personal reflections from it.

Taimur

Sure. So I might be forgetting a few details here. But essentially, the book is like an accessible overview of a lot of concepts, sort of psychology concepts, from this guy called Alfred Adler, who was a psychologist in the sort of early to mid 1900s, I think?

Ali

19th century so 1800s.

Taimur

Oh sorry, 1800s. Okay. And I think these two people, I found the names or the names of the authors.

Ali

The names of the authors of this book are, Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga.

Taimur

Yeah, so Ichiro and Fumitake I think basically, kind of wanted to make Adlerian psychology sort of more accessible. And they kind of compiled this book. And it's a very interesting format. It's not like a traditional fiction, but the format is like a conversation between a student and a philosopher. And so that just to set the scene, basically, there's this sort of young, brash student who like goes to this philosophers house, you know, guns blazing, saying like, "Alright old man" you know, you think you're so enlightened. Let's hear what you have to say kind of thing. And then the, you know, the philosopher will say, you know, something like, "Yes, yes young one." that kind of thing. And then he'll say, like, something and the student be like, "What? No way!" like, you know, you're out of touch old man, you know? This stuff doesn't work in real life kind of thing. And so it's this sort of dialogue. I think it's meant to be modeled after the sort of socratic dialogue. That I don't know if Socrates kind of taught that way I think, I don't know. Something about Socrates.

Ali

Yeah, that's very good. So essentially, it's written as a dialogue, sort of like a script. So for example, if I were to read you the introduction, it says: "Youth - I want to ask you once again, you do believe that the world is in always a simple place." "Philosopher - Yes, this world is astonishingly simple, and life itself is too "Youth - So is this your idealistic argument? Or is it a workable theory? What I mean is, are you saying that any issues you or I face are simple too?" "Philosopher - Yes, of course." "Youth. All right, then. But first, let me explain why I've come to visit you today. Firstly, I want to debate this with you until I'm satisfied. And then if possible, I want to get you to retract this theory." "Philosopher - haha." And then Youth talks about this and Philosopher talks about that. So it's a sort of two way conversation sort of Youth saying something and then Philosopher saying something. And that's the format of the whole book. And I guess while reading it, the reader is supposed to think of themselves in the place of the youth kind of asking this old, wise, enlightened philosopher, these difficult questions and really trying to dismantle his arguments. But as we see over the course of the book, The Philosopher has some really, really good points to make. So do you want to kick us off, Taimur? With what kind of the key? Some of the key points in the book are? We're only going to touch on like a handful, because this is a long book. It's a really good read. So you should definitely read it. And in fact, we'll put an affiliate link in the podcast show notes. So if you buy it from that link, we'll make like, I don't know, I think three pennies per purchase or something like that

Taimur

Wow. Okay.

Ali

Yeah, it's incredible. So if enough people buy it, we might be able to buy a cup of coffee.

Taimur

That's amazing. Yeah, please do. Please do buy. I'll be curious as to how this whole Amazon affiliate stuff works. Okay, I think the first concepts that the book presents is the idea that there's actually no such thing as trauma. And this is obviously quite a controversial in your face idea. What does he say about this, Ali?

Ali

So essentially, the first chapter is called "Trauma Does Not Exist" and the argument basically goes as follows like, the Philosopher says that in an Adlerian philosophy, there is no such thing as trauma, i.e. cause and effect relationships about past life events really don't exist. So a simple example is, you might say, let's say you've got a cold with a fever. And you might think the cause of that cold is the fact that you went outside and you weren't wearing anything, therefore you caught a cold. What he's saying is that this does not apply it to that this sort of model basically doesn't exist. So for example, there is no such thing as trauma of past experiences.There is no such thing, it's not quite as as clear cause and effect. So in Adler's words, he says, "No experience is in itself a cause of a success or failure, we do not suffer from the shock of our experience the so called trauma. But instead we make out of them, whatever suits our purposes, we are not determined by our experiences, but the meaning we give them a self determining." And then the Youth says, "So, we make of them whatever suits our purposes?" Then the Philosopher says, exactly focus on the point Adler is making here when he refers to the self being determined not by our experiences, but by the meaning that we give them. Your life is not something someone gives you but something you choose yourself, and you're the one who decides how you live."

Taimur

Can you think of any examples of like day to day stuff, where our normal way of thinking would be different to the sort of Adler's approach? So like, let's say..

Ali

Okay, so here we go. Here's the example that they're using. So the Youth is giving an example of his friend who was abused by his parents when he was younger, and therefore he stays locked up in his room and feels socially anxious, and therefore can't go outside to talk to anyone.

Taimur

Okay.

Ali

So kind of reading from this chapter, the Youth says, "Okay, so you're saying that my friend has shot himself in his room, because he actually chooses to live this way. This is serious, believe me, it's not what he wants, if anything is something he was forced to choose, because of circumstances. He had no choice other than to become who he is now." Then the Philosopher says, "No, even supposing that your friend actually thinks I can't fit into society, because I was abused by my parents. It's still because it's his goal to think that way." Youth, "What sort of goal is that?" Philosopher, "the immediate thing would probably be the goal of not going out. He is creating anxiety and fear as his reasons to stay inside." So essentially, what the Philosopher is saying is that this friend who has been locked up in this house, and says that it's because my parents, you know, abused me, that's why I'm too scared to go outside. He's saying that's not what's going on. What's going on is the friend is scared to go outside. And he's using his parents as a kind of post hoc justification to that fact.

Taimur

Right.

Ali

And I think this is particularly like, this is an interesting argument to lead with this in this book. Because especially in the kind of special snowflake culture that we seem to live in according to certain people on Twitter. It seems like we're all very keen to explain away things as being due to some past trauma. And therefore, it's a very..

Taimur

It's a very, it's a very hot take. It's a very controversial framing of this.

Ali

Yeah.

Taimur

Because like, all of sort of the, yeah, the way that the entire sort of modern discussion around mental health is framed, is sort of, it's framed in a way that kind of takes agency away from the individual. And so it's kind of like, you know, if you are having some problems, it's because of, you know, certain things that happened to you that may have been out of your control, or you know, one thing a lot of people kind of immediately jump to is that, like, you know, these problems are chemical imbalances in the brain and things like that, and so that the framing is very much of like, the person doesn't have agency, whereas Adler's framing is completely the opposite end of the spectrum, Where it's like, the person has complete agency. I don't know, I don't know where like, no, I'm not a scientist or anything. I don't know where the science really stands on this. I feel like this whole discussion is the whole sort of topic is really about framing and how you look at I'm sure certain frames are more useful in certain contexts than others. I mean, you've kind of as a medic, is there any like consensus on things?

Ali

So, there is some extent of kind of actual chemical imbalance in the brain, as shown by the fact that antidepressants kind of change this chemical balance and imbalance and that seems to sort of help some people. But, kind of the whole basis of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, CBT is kind of goes back to what the stoics used to do back in the Ancient Greek days, which was this idea that, okay, I mean, yeah fine you've had this trauma in your past, but it's now your job to not allow that to dictate how you're going to live the rest of your life and to kind of actively move past it and realize that you are in control and you can control your response to that trauma.

Taimur

Yeah,.

Ali

That's ultimately the basis for CBT at least according to some articles that I read, kind of exploring the foundation to it. And that's sort of what Adler is saying, as well. He's saying for example that when we are angry, it's not that something has angered us, it's that we are choosing to be angry and it just so happens that thing is a decent justification for that.

Taimur

Right. Yeah, I think that's probably I think it's a very good hook at the start of the book. Because like, when you read it, it's like, "Whoa, okay" this is like the opposite of the stuff I usually hear in terms of how it sort of approaches.

Ali

Yeah, absolutely. And I think anyone reading this for the first time will immediately bring to mind so many examples that "Oh, what so you're saying my friend who suffered sexual and child abuse and this that and the other, you know, are you saying he's really making up all these reasons to kind of stay locked up in the house?" And that's not quite what it's saying but it's a very sort of interesting, nuanced argument. And I think this is a good as you said, it's a good hook. It's a good hot take to bring people in at the start.

Taimur

Yeah. So I guess it sort of brings us on to the second concept of the book, which is that we don't have emotions, our emotions don't happen as a result of things, we instead actually have emotions in order to serve our own goals. And so, you know, like you said, I can go like, if I'm feeling angry it's because, if I'm angry at someone, it's because I wanted to feel angry at them. And I found some reasonable justification, like you know, maybe they left a toilet seat up or something, I don't know. And I wanted to feel angry and so I sort of internally used that incident the toilet seat thing, to kind of create anger within myself because I wanted to be angry. I think this one was, I really liked this, because, again, it's kind of like, the discussion here is not really, it's not really about like, science, like I don't think that I'm relativity a lay person in this field. But I don't think they're like, this is not something that science has figured out like, this is why excellent, this is why people feel this way, blah, blah. I think all all of the sort of development in sort of in this kind of stuff is different ways of approaching, you know, how we feel and how we think about stuff different framings. And once again, set the framing of like, we have emotions to serve our goals rather than the the other way around is just really controversial and the opposite of like, the the framing that we hear generally.

Ali

So it's really interesting that we're talking about this week, because this week I listen to a podcast as part of Invisibilia. It's like done by NPR sort of exploring the invisible facts of everyday life or something along those lines. But there was a really really good episode of it entitled "Emotions" and it was like this absolutely riveting kind of like rollercoaster of a ride about exploring the topic of emotions and how emotions are created. And it kind of ends with an interview from this like famous psychologist who's been studying emotions for like 25 years and has sort of looked at all of the evidence available for it. And what she says is that basically there are only four true as in the only innate internal experiences our body has are pleasant and unpleasant. And arousal and calmness, arousal, meaning kind of paying attention to stuff and versus calmness or peace or like, calmness, yeah. Those are the only four emotions that are internal emotions that we're born with like, our body has this internal sensing mechanism that can sense when stuff is wrong, but it can only categorize..

Taimur

Is this true like, is this agreed upon by science?

Ali

Yeah, she's was like, written a book that summarizes the research on.

Taimur

Okay.

Ali

I would imagine she..

Taimur

This isn't a like, framework or anything, this is actually..

Ali

This is not a hot take, this is supposedly the summary of the last 25 years of research.

Taimur

Okay, great.

Ali

But, they then she then has gone on to research why we experience emotions like anger and sadness, and this whole podcast episode is framed in the context of how sad should you feel, if your child dies in a car crash.

Taimur

Okay.

Ali

That kind of explores the point of view of the mum of that child. And also the lorry driver who crashed into the car to kill the child.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

And about how he experiences the grief completely differently to how the mom experiences it. And the point they make is that all of these emotions that we suffer that, that traditional thinking has been had that you know, these are evolutionary based, like, for example, fear, you know, when, you know, if back in caveman days, you saw a tiger or a lion or something, you would feel that feeling of fear, and the adrenaline will get to you, and that's fear, and we will say that, okay, so fear has an evolutionary basis. She says that, that's kind of the wrong way of looking at it. It's more that we have these four internal experiences. And based on our kind of societal learning, we recognize certain things as being anger inducing, or fear inducing, or sadness inducing. And she's done research on societies that don't have specific words for specific emotions. And in those societies, people don't feel that emotion, because they haven't got the concept of it.

Taimur

Love it.

Ali

So if you were in a tribe where the concept of anger did not exist, you would not feel angry about anything at all, if someone would have punched you in the face, it would not be something that you would experience. And so it ends with like, everyone should listen to this, we'll link that in the show notes as well, sadly not an affiliate link. Everyone should listen to this. But it ends with this idea that this is a very, it's very liberating thought that all of the emotions, all of the negative things, even all the positive things that we feel in our life are basically a result of societal conditioning and the story that we are telling ourselves in order to manufacture that emotion of anger or loyalty or sadness or whatever. And so if we want to change that, we actually can't it's not evolutionarily hardwired.

Taimur

Yeah, yeah.

Ali

And I think that's kind of the point that Adlerian psychology makes about things like anger and things like any emotion.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

The example that they give in this book is the Youth saying that you know, the other day I was reading a book in a coffee shop, or a way to pass by and spilled some coffee on my jacket. I yelled at him at the top of my lungs. I'm not normally the person to sort of person who speaks loudly in public places. But you know, I flew into a rage and forgot what I was doing, and you know, that what the Youth is saying that the cause is the waiter spilling coffee on his new jacket and the effect is him getting angry, and the Philosopher's saying that wait so you saying that this was an unavoidable occurrence and you couldn't do anything about it? And then the Youth says yes, because it happened so suddenly, the words just came out of my mouth before I had time to think. The philosopher says, then just suppose you happen to have a knife on you yesterday, and when you blew up he just got carried away and stabbed him, would you still be able to justify that by saying it was an unavoidable occurrence and I couldn't do anything about it. And the Youth says he says, "Come on, that's an extreme argument." The Philosopher says, "It's not an extreme argument at all. If we proceed with your reasoning, any offence committed in anger can be blamed on anger, and will no longer be the responsibility of the person. Because essentially, you're saying that people cannot control their emotions." And then the Youth says, "How do you explain my anger then? and the Philosopher says, "That's easy. You did not fly into a rage, and then start shouting, it is solely that you got angry so that you could shout. In other words, in order to fulfill the goal of shouting, you created the emotion of anger. The goal of shouting came before anything else. That is to say, by shouting, you wanted to make the waiter submit to you and listen to what you had to say, as a means to do that you fabricated the emotion of anger." I think that's really interesting, I think this also applies to being upset about things. Like when we're upset about things, it's not the it's not the thing itself that's have made us upset. It's A the story, we're telling yourself about the thing, and we're essentially manufacturing the tears and the tantrum and whatever in order to make a wider point. Our goal is being upset. Our goal is not reacting to the thing.

Taimur

Yeah. This is just like, it's just like the polar opposite of everything, I don't know, just like what we consider to be like, the normal way of thinking about things, which is things happen and we have emotional reactions to them.

Ali

Yeah, cause and Effect.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

But there is no such thing as cause and effect, there was no such thing as trauma. Emotions are manufactured because we choose to experience those emotions.

Taimur

It's amazing. I love it. All right, so I think the next concept is kind of related, it's the idea that unhappiness is something that we choose for ourselves. Do you have any Kindle highlights on this one, Ali?

Ali

I think in this what the Philosopher and what Adler is saying is that, when we're unhappy, it's because we want our circumstances to be different to what they actually are, and we are using our circumstances as a justification that you know my circumstances are bad therefore I'm unhappy. But the way that Adler says and the way the Philosopher says in this book is that, at some stage in your life, you chose being unhappy, It's not because you were born into unhappy circumstances or ended up in an unhappy situation, it's that you judged the state of being unhappy to be good for you and by good, he means beneficial, that you know, the story that you're telling yourself that you're unhappy, it's benefiting you in some way, which is why you are continuing to choose that particular framing of it. And I think, sort of just riffing on this point, like this is often like, one of the things that the whole self help stuff says about negative emotions, like unhappiness and sadness, and sort of fear and whatever is. Think about how someone else in that exact situation might feel and if you can bring to mind an example of anyone you know, who given the same circumstances would react in a different way. That means it's really not the circumstances themselves that are making you unhappy, it's that you're choosing to be unhappy, and you're using the circumstances to kind of justify that.

Taimur

Yeah. On the topic of choosing to be unhappy, I found a good quote, I highlighted it on my Kindle yesterday.

Ali

Not from the book or from elsewhere?

Taimur

No, a different book. How do I see my Kindle highlights?

Ali

On the Kindle app?

Taimur

Kindle.

Ali

Then use the hamburger menu. So you've got to actually open the book.

Taimur

Oh yeah here it is. It's the phrase, yeah actually said, this is a different book, I was reading also related to this kind of stuff. And it's in reference to sort of the idea of trauma, and the past kind of affecting our sort I think, you know, drinking the cheap wine of tragedy, oh, is a really nice way of outlook on things. And the quote is pretty out of context, but I think it's very nice, very colorful quotes. Though it may be putting it harshly, it could of putting because like, look, the thing is. I didn't know I can only speak for be said that one is getting drunk on the cheap wine of tragedy, and trying to forget the bitterness of an unfortunate now. myself, but certainly, I think whenever when I'm feeling like, you know, negative emotions in general, whether it's like sadness, or whatever. There is, I mean, it's, it is on the whole negative. But there's something..

Ali

Something nice about it.

Taimur

Again, nice is the wrong word. This, it's like a negative thing, but you kind of get off on it in a weird way, you know?

Ali

Sort of like the enjoyment of the enjoyment in backbiting about other people and hearing the drama.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

You know it's negative thing but you're sort of getting off on it.

Taimur

Yeah. And I think like, I think that's what I didn't get drinking the cheap wine of tragedy is a nice phrase I think. That kind of points to this concept.

Ali

Yeah. So I was always intrigued when my friends would say that they've got like different playlists for when they're feeling sad. And initially I thought, oh, so you know, you've got playlist that makes you feel happy. And they were like, "What? No. I've got a playlist that makes me even sadder." And as if this was a totally normal thing.

Taimur

Yeah. Yeah.

Ali

And sort of unquestioning them further, on questioning them further they all kind of admitted that, you know, sometimes it's nice when you're sad to continue to wallow in

Taimur

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm totally on board with that, there's definitely like a sort of catharsis to kind of, yeah, just like, dialing it up. Alright, the next and this might be my favorite concept from this book is the idea that all problems are interpersonal relationship problems. So there's the idea that like, any problem that you think you have in your life, it comes from the fact that you have relationships with other people. And so it always like if no one else in the world existed, you actually wouldn't have any problems. If you had like some food and some water and some shelter. And yeah I think I really liked this because suddenly internally, whenever I feel like I have a problem. I always kind of do this sort of, I try and dig into it, I always ask, okay, like, why is this a problem? And I keep asking why. And inevitably, if you have, if you think you have a problem, and you keep asking why this is a problem, what you will get to is something around like, yeah, some interpersonal ratio, I'm worried what surgeons that will think of me, I'm worried how my friends about yeah. Everything will eventually come down to it being a relationships issue.

Ali

And Adler apparently takes us a step further and says that specifically, it specifically the the interpersonal relationship issue that all problems are a result or a result of his invading the invasion of tasks. And this is a great concept in this book that actually kind of changed the way I think when I first read it. Which is the idea that we each have our own tasks, like it is our task to do the thing, for example, to I don't know, take our exam, whatever. But it's someone else's task. It's someone else's task to kind of grade that performance or to be approving or disapproving of that task. So for example, in having arguments with our parents, that is always a result of either someone intruding on someone else's tasks, or someone having their own tasks intruded upon. And the example he talks about is when a parent gets annoyed at a child for not doing their homework, doing the homework is the child's task. And if the parent gets annoyed at it, then they're, you know, and tries to forcibly make the child do the homework, they are invading on the child's task, and therefore that's going to cause an interpersonal relationship problem, which is therefore going to be a problem overall. Whereas, the parents were to accept, okay, you know, I can lead the horse to water, but I can't force it to drink, you know, I can create the conditions, you can like, I can have a nice clean table for my kid to sit out and say, you know, here's your work. The parent can do that task of creating that condition, but it's ultimately the child's task to do the thing. And child's gonna get annoyed if the parent is infringing on that. Parents gonna be annoyed in trying to infringe on the child's task. And so every single problem in our lives is a result of infringing on someone else's tasks, or having our own tasks infringed upon.

Taimur

Yeah, I love this as well. It's just. Look, the genius of this, this book and this like, sort of this, this guy's sort of, you know, like the theories, it's just so daring. Like, very rarely, I feel like nowadays, very rarely do you hear anyone try and peddle a stance. That is like, completely lack nuance, or like, you know, conditions or like. Everything we hear normally is like, "Oh, you know, you might believe x, y, z under these following conditions. And of course, there are these exceptions that you know, all this kind of stuff like. I just, it's so rare to hear someone actually take a strong opinionated stance, like, holy.

Ali

Yeah, that every single problem is a result of task infringement.

Taimur

Yeah,

Ali

"Wait a minute, that can't be right. I've definitely got problems that aren't a result of tasks, hold on."

Taimur

It's so cool, man, it's so. Look, my life goal is to come up with a completely like un-nuanced theory. Obviously, like, the bar is very high. If you want to have this like really, this theory or this proposition that lacks sort of any conditions or nuance. I think it's a hard thing to do. I'm pretty convinced the ones that this book comes up with. So yeah, I mean, every problem is an interpersonal ratio problem. If you are listening to this, and if you think you have a problem, that is not an interpersonal relationship problem, tweet us at @noverthinking, or you can like DM us to keep it confidential, whatever. I'd be very interested to hear this. In the next podcast, we'll like read these out if anyone can actually think of it.

Ali

Okay, wait. So I'm curious if someone were to message us and say, "My problem is that I can't afford an iPad Pro and I want an iPad Pro."

Taimur

Okay.

Ali

How was that an interpersonal relationship problem?

Taimur

Okay, I guess this is kind of hard because then it requires a sort of asking of why. So you get to the ratio. Okay. Yeah, I've tactically you say "I want an iPad Pro." I can be like, why do you want an iPad Pro?

Ali

Because it'll make me more productive in school.

Taimur

Why do you want to be more productive in school?

Ali

Because then I'll pass my exams.

Taimur

Why do you want to pass your exam? Yeah. Eventually you'll get to, because I want like, I want parents approve of me I want like society to think I'm, yeah. Don't you think?

Ali

I feel like there has to be some nuance with this idea.

Taimur

Okay, I think the nuances is this. That nuance is, if you're truly in a position where your basic human needs, I'm talking like, really basic human needs of food and water and shelter, if they're not being satisfied, then fine. If you're literally starving to death.

Ali

And while listening to this podcast.

Taimur

Yeah, while listening to this podcast. It's a good way to go by the way. I will accept that you are not in interpersonal relationship problem with them at that moment. But yeah, I think everything else basically, it's, and I love to share an otherwise, so do write in. As we just talked about how every problem is a interpersonal relationship problem. And that every interpersonal relationship problem comes from either someone else intruding on a task that is ours, or from us intruding on someone else's task. The next concept which I mentioned, I think in last episode, just says before this..

Ali

Oh, actually, I've got a few highlights, I've actually highlighted on this. When I first read it. So, the chapter is called: "How To Rid Yourself Of Interpersonal Relationship Problems" and it says that all you can do with regard to your own life is to choose the best path that you believe in. On the other hand, what kind of judgment do other people pass on that choice? That is the task of other people, and it's not a matter you can do anything about. And then the Youth says stuff like, oh, but wait, so you're saying it's not my job to please my parents and the Philosopher saying is correct, it is not your job to please your parents, it's your job to do what you think is best. And whether or not your parents are pleased or displeased by that is entirely their job.

Taimur

It's their task.

Ali

And so all you can do is live in the way that you think is, you know, intentional, best of whatever you're doing without worrying about them approving of it or disapproving of it.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

And then there's another one. Remember the words of the grandmother, you're the only one who's worried about how you look. Her remark drives right to the heart of the separation of tasks, what other people think when they see your face, that is the task of other people, and is not something you have any control over. Anyway, yeah. That I think ties up quite nicely. Well, what was the next one?

Taimur

The next concept is this, I talked about this in the last episode, the idea of viewing other other people as your comrades and stopping. I think like nowadays, like, implicitly, we all just have this framework of like, comparison and competition between us and our fellow man. And this book has a chapter or two talking exactly about this about how like, we need to get outside get out of this mindset of seeing other people as competition and comparing, basically comparing human beings. And get into the mindset of seeing other people as our comrades. And that one, you know, once we get to the point of like, you know, like, you look at a sort of complete stranger and you feel a sense of camaraderie with them, that sort of opens up, essentially a whole new way of living.

Ali

Yeah, so there's a quote here from the Philosopher's that says, it does not matter if one is trying to walk in front of others or walk behind them. It is as if we are moving through a flat space that has no vertical access. We do not walk in order to compete with someone it is in trying to progress past who one is now that there is value. And then the Youth says, Have you become free from all forms of competition? The Philosopher says, of course, I do not think about gaining status or honor. And I live my life as an outside philosopher without any connection whatsoever to worldly competition. Youth, does that mean you've dropped out of competition that you somehow accept defeat? Philosopher, No, I withdrew from places that are preoccupied with winning and losing. When one is trying to be oneself competition will inevitably get in the way. I think it's very important like, this is one that occasionally it comes across on what comes up on my Readwise, you know, that daily email that I get with five highlights, And I always think, damn, this is something I need to work on. Because, like, I don't actually care about competition within medicine. But when it comes to kind of the YouTubing thing, I very occasionally find myself drawn into kind of like, sort of having this kind of internal competition, like finding other people who are similar size to me and thinking, Oh, he's growing at a higher rate, or she's growing at a slower rate. Oh, that's a great thing I'm doing well. And I start to think of it as if it's a competition, but it's really, really not. So anytime that thought comes, you know, this book is one of the sort of part of the symphony of voices behind me trying to override this idea of competition. And even within medicine, which is inherently competitive, and you know, where you're all kind of, a lot of people are applying for the same job or same set of jobs. There is a competition for you know, places and you get like a score and stuff like that. I still try my best to view it as a competition like a game that I'm playing with myself, as opposed to a competition where other people are taking part. And sort of on this note, I've been thinking of kind of unrelated, somewhat related. I really like the the framing of exams like you know, school and University exams as being a game. Like a game that you play with yourself, I can single play a game that doesn't have other people competing in it. Because then you don't need to worry about how well did that person do? How well am I doing relative to them and so on. But there is still an aspect of friendly competition within doing exams that I think is fine and is actually healthy. And so I've been thinking of a way to kind of frame this and..

Taimur

Yeah, how do you summarize that thought?

Ali

And so the thing I came up with was, it's sort of like doing a raid in World of Warcraft. So, if you're not familiar with World of Warcraft, it basically is a game, right? And ...

Taimur

everyone has turned off podcast.

Ali

That's fine. That means I can explain it. Basically, World of Warcraft is an online game role playing game where you create like a warlock or something and you level up the warlock. Taimur and I used to play World of Warcraft, back in the day. I even clocked about 118 days of game time on it, which over a four year period was on average about three and a half hours a day. Between year 8, and year 12, or between year 9 and year 13, or something like that. So this was my productivity guru back in the day, I was playing three and a half hours a day of World of Warcraft, four years, that's a very, very long time anyway. In World of Warcraft, when you get to the kind of like the final level, like level 80, or whatever it is. You then get the endgame content. And in that you form these raids, perhaps yeah, I think that's the thing in Pokemon GO as well. But in World of Warcraft, you form these raids, where you get a group of 20 people together, and you will work together to take down a particular monster. And within these raids, like you're all working together, so you're taking on the monster and everyone like progresses as a team. But within that there is a friendly competition amongst the damage dealers to see who can deal the most damage to the boss. Like, you know, "Oh, I got 8000 DPS damage per second. And this guy got 7000." And you have this sort of friendly competition with one another while you're on the same team trying to take down the boss, just to see who's got the highest damage. Equally alongside the damage dealing roles, you have like the tank role, whose job is to kind of take the hits so that he supports everyone else. And you also have the healer roles whose job is to purely heal everyone else up. And not do any damage to the boss, but to heal everyone else up and may help the whole team get through. And I think this is a good way of thinking about exams at university. Because like, you know, we've got me, my friend Jake, my friend Paul, like, whatever . We all consider ourselves the damage dealers of the group. And therefore we will compete against one another, in that friendly small way to see who can do the most damage. You can get a slightly higher score. But equally, we've got friends who are more like support roles, and their aim is not to get the highest score at all. That's not what they're about. What they're about is, you know, being nice and friendly and making sure everyone gets through the exams and sharing the notes and doing it like a really nice and open way, and as long as they pass the exam that makes them completely happy. I think it's totally fine. And that's like, I think a good framing of dealing with this idea of exams, being sort of competitive, but also not thinking about the competition.

Taimur

Yeah, I think that's a nice framing. And just to keep with the World of Warcraft analogy, I think it also extends outside of your own raid groups. So you know, people that have organized themselves into different guilds, you know? Basically like little clubs that you can join with other people. And each guild will like try and beat the boss, you know, before the other guilds and stuff. And again, it's like a very friendly competition thing, where each guild wants to be the first guild on the server to kill the Lich King or whatever it was back in the day, right? And so everyone's like, trying to do that, and you sort of competing with other guilds for that. But for example, if another guild did kill, if they got the, you know, world first killing the Lich King achievement, your reaction wouldn't be like, "Ah, damn, screw these guys." You're gonna be like, "Oh, whoa, that's sick." you know? Just like within a raid, if like, if like your best thing was like 8000 DPS or something. And someone else managed to somehow get like 12K DPS, your action would be like, you'd have lost the competition or whatever. But your action would be like, "Whoa, that's awesome." you know?

Ali

Yeah, absolutely.

Taimur

That's like friendly competition I'd say.

Ali

And then to continue that analogy even further, as like, as soon as a guild has done the world first kill. And as soon as the second one has come about, they will release their video explaining the strategy and explaining the fight for everyone else to follow.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

To follow from that point. It's not a case of we're gonna hold this to us. Once that competition for spot one and two is gone. They're more than happy to share absolutely everything they know, you can look at their logs, which they make public to see exactly what they get through this fight. So that everyone gets through it together. And I think that's a nice way of thinking about these sorts of exams as well, and that's why, you know, like, sure, you know, obviously like sharing resources amongst each other and stuff like that.

Taimur

Yeah. I think that's a nice analogy for comradeship. And yeah, I said the same thing. On the previous episode, we talked about this. Which is like, you know, we've all been in sort of scenarios or environments where we're sort of with a group of like, close friends, which you know, feels like a safe and safe space and whatever. And you sort of feel very comfortable in it. You're sort of vibing essentially, I think vibing sums it up. I've been told that overuse the word vibe on the podcast, but I think it's actually very helpful.

Ali

Who's told you that?

Taimur

One of my friends who listened.

Ali

You've got friends who listen to the podcast?

Taimur

Yeah. (laughter)

Ali

So I've also got a surprising number of friends who listen to the podcast. Like, they don't care about the videos at all. But they are like, I actually listen to the podcast. I was like, "What? You actually listened to the podcast?" I was so surprised that anyone does.

Taimur

Yeah, that was nice.

Ali

Anyway,

Taimur

But yeah, we've all been scenarios where like, you're with a group of people and you're just vibing, and it's like, you know, you feel the sense of camaraderie, right? And I said this on previous episode, imagine if you could always have that, imagine if like you're on this like cramped tube with other people. And you know, one like framing of that, it's like, oh, this sucks. I'm like really cramped, whatever. Imagine if your framing of all these situations would be like, Yeah, man. I'm just vibing with vibing with humanity, you know, kind of thing.

Ali

Totally cool, man.

Taimur

Yeah. That would be awesome. And so like, yeah, I'm not there

Ali

Since you actually mentioned this on the podcast last week. And definitely. But that's what this book is trying to get you to a point of because I've been on calling the evenings in the hospital, I'm often kind of like walking down a deserted corridor, and someone turns the corner and walks

Taimur

Yeah. past me. And in my head, I've been thinking, I've been kind of doing a little nod and thinking that's my comrade over there.

Ali

In my head I think "hey, comrades" and therefore that just puts a smile on my face and I kind of know to be like, hey, morning, evening, whatever. And just that that switch of, you know, not comrade.

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

It's just quite nice.

Taimur

Yeah, I was thinking it today, like we were, we were coming from Covent Garden to Kings Cross and there's like a long tunnel. Yeah, there's a lot of walking Kings Cross Station, right? And, yeah, just bunch of people walking in this tunnel. There are like some of youths who are like, kind of running sort of chasing each other kind of yelling at each other kind of thing. And I just sort of thought thought to myself, "these are all my comrades." And we're all like comrades in this tunnel together. We're all like walking. And I felt better. It's great.

Ali

All right. So that was comrade. What's the next point from the book?

Taimur

I think this sort of brings us to the final concept, which is that ultimately, happiness is a feeling of contribution to something.

Ali

Oh, yeah. This was actually revolutionary. Because, you know, being a self help kind of junkie, I've found so many different definitions for happiness and meaning and stuff. But this was the first time where I've really come across it kind of stated in an explicit way. Because everyone kind of says, "Oh, well, happiness, you know, it's one of those things that you can't chase. And it's really hard to define anytime you're trying to find it in kind of evades you. But this guy literally straight up says, "Happiness is the feeling of contribution" as though like, if you feel like you were useful to someone else, or something else, then you're happy. And the sort of the pursuit of that feeling of contribution is what the pursuit of happiness is. I just thought, "damn, that's really good."

Taimur

Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's a nice concept. I think it's not as daring, I think it's not as like profound is like the some of the other positions that philosophers taken in this because like, happiness is such a fuzzy concept that like, yeah, you can say happiness is a feeling of contribution. And if you sort of squint, you can kind of see why that might be true. So I've heard people say things like, you know, happiness is love. And yeah, if you squint your eyes, you can see why that might be true. So I don't think that's as profound as something like, every problem is an interpersonal problem, or that kind of thing. But I think it's nice, it's nice.

Ali

And then I suppose kind of the final, the reason the book is called the courage to be disliked is that ultimately, the point that he's so sort of getting to is that, in order to be free, you need to have the courage to be disliked. He says, "The courage to be happy also includes the courage to be disliked. When you have gained that courage, your interpersonal relationships will all at once change into things of lightness." and kind of the point that he's making is that it's fine to not want to be disliked. But inevitably, we're all going to be disliked in some way or another. And it's the way that we respond to that, that dictates how free we are, like if you have the courage to be disliked, then you don't really care if people dislike you. You will do what you can, you'll do your task to kind of make sure you're not, you know, actively being addict to someone. But beyond that it is someone else's task, like but beyond that it's someone else's task to judge how they feel about you, if that makes sense. And so that's sort of the crux of his all of the stuff that he's kind of talking about. And then they go on to talk more about how to kind of live in the moment, live earnestly in the here and now and I know this sort of stuff. But that is sort of why the book is called: "The Courge to be Disliked".

Taimur

I don't think the title actually, it's the title sounds really clickbaity and I think I didn't feel like most of the book actually was relevant. Like, if you read this title, how the hell do you title a book like this? I get it. But yeah, the title isn't that relevant to it. But I guess it's, yeah, this is how it is relevant.

Ali

How do you feel about about being disliked?

Taimur

Me?

Ali

Yeah.

Taimur

It's hard to say. I think I'm a lot more okay with it now than before. And I think like over the past, yeah I think like a lot of my sort of personal development over the past few years. One way of kind of tracking it is to kind of see how willing and happy are to be disliked by other people. And I think I'm definitely getting better at it. Yeah, I can't give you like a number, I'm a four. I can articulate it. But, getting better I think, I think like, I think, yeah, having the courage to be disliked is kind of also the idea of like, you know, people say phrases like being secure in yourself. And I guess like insecurity is sort of not having the courage to be disliked, and kind of needing validation for other people and that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think it's a framing of something, that's lots of people saying lots of different ways. What about you? You three?

Ali

Yeah, I think three, the courage to be disliked, no. So obviously, I don't like being disliked. But I know that it's going to be inevitable. I don't think anyone likes being disliked. I think the way that I think about it is that if I'm being, if someone dislikes me for something wrong that I have done to them, then I would like to correct that wrong if it's if it was unintentional, because I don't like unintentionally causing harm to people. If it was intentional, and then I'm you know, I made the decision at the time and I thought it was the right decision then. But if people dislike me, which I'm sure plenty of people do, you know, the idea of haters and stuff. On that there was a good Paul Graham article about this, I don't know if you read it.

Taimur

Yeah, I've read it. It's this idea of.. I'm a tech bro, dude, of course I've read the Paul Graham essay.

Ali

Of course you've read it. It's an essay, not an article, gosh. What he says in this is that a hater is basically sort of like a fanboy and like he defines fanboys being someone who is uncritically admiring of your work and just thinks that everything you do is fantastic. Whereas a hater sort of like that exact kind of mindset, except all of it is in the negative. And he says that, by definition, a hater must consider you a fraud in some way. Like, as soon as you achieve any level of fame or notoriety or anything at all, then the haters are gonna develop. And the haters can't deny your fame. But they can, the story they tell themselves is "Oh, that person is a fraud. That's why he's so famous, and no one else can see it." and that's kind of like, their reason for disliking you. The point he makes is that, yeah, as soon as you have any level of success or fame, you're gonna get haters, and you have to become okay with dealing with it. So for example, anytime I see kind of Tim Ferriss or Gary Vaynerchuk haters in comments on YouTube, it's always about them being a fraud. They're always like, "Oh, this person selling snake oil, he doesn't really think that he's a fraud." and then this that or the other. So I think sort of being disliked at scale like that, I'm completely okay with. But being disliked in sort of a one to one interpersonal interaction, or I unintentionally cause someone harm, I would not be okay with that at all.

Taimur

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good point. And I surprised you took the hater turn, because I thought you were going somewhere else with that. Which is that, yeah, I think being this, I've had a few situations in the past where I think other people have disliked me for what I would consider to be a misunderstanding. Like, if something, you know, if someone dislikes me for..

Ali

For example, which I was going to..

Taimur

It's not that interesting and I have to like, think about it.

Ali

Okay, fair enough.

Taimur

I know there have been examples of this. And that I always find that quite upsetting, when I feel like the other person actually has it wrong. And like that, yeah, I don't hold the positions they think I hold or like, I didn't mean something in a certain way. I think I find I always find that upsetting. But if for example, someone dislikes me, you know, for things that I would say are accurate, like, you know, you know, positions that I do actually hold.

Ali

For example, that trauma doesn't exist.

Taimur

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a framing rather than sort of objective facts. But yeah, if someone sort of disliked me for things that I'm like, yeah, if someone's like, I dislike you for x, y, z reasons. And it looks x, y, z, and they were actually things that were true about me and that I was sort of on board with, you know, decisions I'd made or whatever. Yeah, cool. That's fine, I would actually be okay with that I think. But I think the sort of dislike that comes from things like miscommunication and misunderstanding that kind of stuff. That's a, I think there's a bit of a tragedy.

Ali

Yeah, I know what you mean, yeah. Like, I wouldn't want someone to dislike me for being like, you know. All Ali cares about is being famous or something like that, because that's not my position. And if they understood my position, they wouldn't think that way. But if you know, if they take the position that only cares a lot about kind of, you know, being famous in some capacity having a certain level of financial independence and is willing to put himself out there in a way that's not standard for the medical procedure to do that, and therefore I dislike that. I really can't do anything about that.

Taimur

So I think that brings us to the end of our summary of "The Courage to be Disliked". This is a groundbreaking book, you should all definitely read it, If you haven't, we will have a link, an Amazon affiliate link in the podcast description. So if you do want to buy it, please buy it from there. And we'll get some some money. Fantastic.

Ali

And also if you're feeling very generous, and you want to really support our channel, then please sign up at skillshare.com/notoverthinking that really helps support the podcast. Plus, it's also actually like really good. I pay for Skillshare, even though they sponsor my videos and they sponsor this podcast, and it's, you know, a good amount of money that I spend every month, like, I'm not sad to spend that money, I do get a lot of value out of Skillshare. And you can sign up to my own course as well. Anyway, we're gonna end with like reading a review and like a interesting insight or insight of the week.

Taimur

Oh, this is a great review. This review entitled "measure over magnitude" from Robsue1 from the United States of America. The review is "You guys are addressing topics with high measure, while many other podcasts tend to focus on magnitude. Things that impact the day to day much more frequently, but not as sexy to talk about, love the low key unscripted conversation format." What a great review.

Ali

Oh.

Taimur

That's exactly what I want this podcasts to be.

Ali

Fantastic, rather than "Oh, it's such easy listening."

Taimur

Yeah.

Ali

I think it's fine if it's easy listening.

Taimur

Thank you to Robsu1, for leaving that review.

Ali

Right, insight of the week, what's you're insight of the week. I've got one while you think.

Taimur

All right.

Ali

My insight of the week comes from some blog posts that I probably read a few weeks ago, which was entitled, "Do what you're going to do" or something like that. And it and it was the idea that when we're doing stuff, we should do the thing, you know? And for example, when we're ironing our clothes, we should focus on ironing our clothes. When washing the dishes, we should focus on washing the dishes. And previously, like before coming across this I would have thought washing the dishes and ironing clothes and stuff is menial time wasted that I should be listening to a podcast at double speed instead or listening to a song listen to..

Taimur

Being productive, yeah.

Ali

Or at least thinking about my business in some capacity or another. But earlier today, I was reminded of this, and then I actively took out my Air Pods from listening to a podcast while ironing my, the clothing that I'm currently wearing. And I just thought, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna iron this. And I kind of gave it my full attention. And it was quite nice. And equally whenever I do this with the dishes, like I actually quite enjoy for washing the dishes when I focus on it. Whereas if I'm washing the dishes while listening to something, I feel like washing the dishes and not annoyance I'd have to put up with. Listen to the thing is what I really want to do. So that's something I'm trying to kind of do a bit more of, do the thing that I'm doing.

Taimur

That's awesome, yeah. Yeah, I've had a similar feeling around washing hands, brushing teeth in the past. Brushing teeth is really good, when you get a new toothbrush, try and notice the new sensation of the way like the shape of the new toothbrush kind of massages your gums. It's amazing. It's so cool.

Ali

Is that your insight?

Taimur

My insight comes from a tweet I did, a tweet that I done a tweet what I done, I believe is the correct phrasing. Which is that a couple of days ago, I bought a, I bought an egg tart for me and Lucas. I went out to buy our lunch. And I thought okay, let's have a little dessert thing, I bought like two egg tarts. And so I had the lunch. And I was thinking Ooh, a coffee and an egg tart, I wouldn't mind that right now. But then I thought no, I'm just eating some food. I'm basically full, I just kind of would be having this extra food for the sake of it. If I wait one to two hours, the coffee and egg tart will taste much nicer. And so I actually did and it tasted phenomenal. And it's just like being, I feel like I mentioned this in a tweet as it's sort of like living in a permanent marshmallow test, you know? Where like, you're sort of just thinking about like the delayed gratification reward in general. I think about that a lot with regards to food now.

Ali

Mate, I have this dilemma every single day is like whenever I stop at McDonald's on the way home for the drive thru, I think, right? Do I want to eat this in the car where there's the risk of it kind of slobbering down my top or do I want to wait 11 minutes until I get home where I can sit myself and really enjoy this. And I always eat it in the car.

Taimur

Smashed it.

Ali

Exactly, so I need to kind of swap my marshmallow test life out.

Book Discussion - The Courage to be Disliked