Book Discussion: The Righteous Mind

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
08.Feb.2021

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing today?
Taimur
I'm doing okay, I'm a bit tired and a bit sort of mentally and emotionally drained. So you're gonna have to take the lead on this podcast.
Ali
Tell me more. This is music to my ears.
Taimur
Is it? Yeah, just this. I mean, it's kind of stupid. I think it's mostly external events have not really changed too much. It's more about like, internal story regarding those events. And my internal story regarding some events has been flip flopping over the past few days. It's been quite the roller coaster internally, even though externally like, it's so good.
Ali
What events are we talking about?
Taimur
I can't really go into it now. Maybe in a few weeks.
Ali
Are we talking like personal stuff? Or like business stuff?
Taimur
it's work stuff.
Ali
Hmm. Interesting.
Taimur
That's me. How about you?
Ali
So you've been flip flopping internally, Marcus Aurelius style.
Taimur
I didn't know he did that. But great minds, I guess.
Ali
Exactly. Exactly. No, I'm doing good. I had a moment a few days ago, where I was saying to Sheen that I felt a bit overwhelmed. That's not really a word that I use very often. But there were like, lots of things piling up. And lots of like, I say work things. But like, you know, YouTube type stuff piling up. And then part of me thinking, Oh, my God, the channel is getting stale. And these videos didn't perform very well. And I realize now piling up is in, we've got the system. But even with like the system, there was still a lot of like, the idea behind our system is that I only have to film like once or twice a month, and everything else is taken care of. But that is like an ideal that we almost never actually hit. And, you know, despite best intentions, we end up it ends up being a mad scramble to get videos out.
Taimur
But you need to make like, what, two videos a week or something? How hard can that be?
Ali
I mean, it's not that hard. And I filmed two earlier today. So that's all sorted out sorted for next week. But it's like because most, it's like these last few weeks, basically, all of my days have been taken up with back to back Zoom calls. And that plus the fact that I'm writing this book meant that I wasn't really making the time for YouTubing like an [...]
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And so it was nice having it kind of blocked out on the calendar today. It's been like, you know what, I'm gonna film these like four videos. So I film two, make some progress my third film some shorts. And you know, it's always sort of work in progress. But there was just that point where I think like back to back Zoom calls plus having to also plus also wanting time for creative work.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And like, I needed more time blocked in my schedule. I just went over the weekend. I did like a five hour...
Taimur
Tell me about the feeling of overwhelmed.
Ali
Feeling of overwhelmed was, I'm not sure if either one was the right word, but it was a feeling of I think similar to you, like, external events not really changed, but internal story was flip flopping.
Taimur
What was your internal story. Oh, I've got it so hard I need to make two videos this week. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make fun of it. What was the internal story?
Ali
It doesn't matter I don't talk about it. The internal story was channels getting stale, you know, I'm not becoming a relevance channel. [...] and it's gonna decline.
Taimur
I'd love to dig into that. Why do you think channels going stale? Like, how many subscribers you are now? Like, what numbers? What do you mean?
Ali
Yeah. So like, objectively is probably not going stale. It's just that the thing with YouTube is that when you when you log into the YouTube studio homepage, like, the numbers that you're confronted with is like your current subscribers and the change in the last 28 days. And then your view, you have any views in the last 28 days and watch time and revenue. And then next to it, you see a green or red up and down arrow where the percentage change days. And those have been like in the red for some time.
Taimur
Where it's like the sort of subscriber growth rate is going down or something or?
Ali
Yeah, so so for example, we've had 65,000 subscribers in the last 28 days, but in the previous 28 day batch, it was maybe like 72,000 subscribers.
Taimur
That's not that much difference.
Ali
Yeah, no, it's not, but it's just, you know, that's why objects..
Taimur
You see a red thing instead of a green thing.
Ali
Yeah, and also the way that that it works that, you know, it tells you how your most recent video is doing relative to your previous 10 and I put out a video called how writing online changed my life, which was doing 10 out of 10 ie, the 10th worst performing video out of the previous 10 and then, crucially, I changed the title to "How Writing Online Made Me A Millionaire" and immediately overnight that video started performing like ridiculously well because of a slight click baity title change so that was nice.
Taimur
That was nice.
Ali
Yeah, that was nice. It's not one like two out of 10 like it's it's absurd just how much it's clibmed just to that title change. But I think what was happening that now that we dropped down to two videos a week, part of me was thinking, Okay, let's try and make these two videos a banger every time. And therefore I switched away from my stoic mentality of I will only think about the things I can control and moved more into, oh, I want these videos to have high views and to be bangus. And when some of them went high views and bangers, I was like, you know, this is really annoying. And the drive slash even even having a goal having it as a goal that we want to put up banger videos was making me really procrastinate hard from actually filming these. Because I was like, oh, like, it just feels like such, it felt like not fun to try and have this external metric that I was aiming at. And yeah, I had a chat with one of my mates Noah Kagan, he came on to our Part-Time YouTuber inner circle to do an office hours. And his wife, his channel is very much that look, I'm aiming for every single video to be a banger and to be better than the last. And as I was talking to him, I kind of thought, okay, I'm pretty sure that's not how I want to approach YouTube. But he had some compelling reasons. And he was I got sort of caught up in his like, easily. He's very high energy and stuff. I was like, Oh, you know what? Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I could try every video to be a banger. Yeah, let's do it. And for about a week, I was like, yeah, everybody's gonna be a banger. And then the next three weeks, it was sort of more of a trough of this isn't really fun anymore. So now I'm kind of going more towards something that Sara Dietschy talks about, which is sort of one for me one for them where once a week, it'll be an attempted banger It'll be like a 10 Productivity Hacks. And once a week [...] Yeah, pandering versus like, for example, earlier today, I put out a video called "How I Play Piano and Sing at the Same Time" which is definitely one for me, like it was not gonna perform well, and is doing absolutely terribly. But you know what? It's okay. It's okay to have those sorts of videos. It's all good.
Taimur
That's interesting. So are the bangers always measured by like view count or something rather than? I don't know what you think is cool, then?
Ali
Yeah, basically.
Taimur
Is that what Noah Kagan is going for, as well?
Ali
Yeah, very much. So. Here's the weird thing that YouTube studio does when you log into it, if you have something that's 1 out of 10 and, and if it's a one out of 10 that is so outperforming it actually animates fireworks on the 1 out of 10. So you get that like, genuine like dopamine hits of these fireworks coming out? Let me screenshot it and send it to your friends.
Taimur
There's a really funny cartoon, which is often I mean, it's often posted on Twitter to sum up Twitter, but it's like a diagram from a from a science textbook. It'll say there's a there's a really funny Twitter account called Asides Diagrams that look like shit posts, where basically, they'll find like, obscure diagrams from like science textbooks that seem like this is you know, this is like a meme that someone's created into like caption or whatever. Anyway, there's a classic one of like, a diagram of a monkey sitting in front of a screen. And they see some stimulus on the screen. And then they press a button on the on some console and they get like a treat. That's always like post is like, this is Twitter, basically. And your fireworks things.
Ali
Whoever thought of that is an absolute genius. I was like it's weird because in like December around Christmas time, I had so many I had like three fireworks videos in a row. Firstly, there was like "How Much Money I Made in 2020" And then there was like a "My INSANELY Productive Christmas Day". And then there was like, "I WAS WRONG - How I Set Goals for the New Year" and all of those like 1 out of 10 with fireworks. And so I was like I was over the moon towards the end of 2020. I haven't had any 1 out of 10 for a while.
Taimur
That's funny. So before we go into the actual topic of today's episode, I wanted to chat briefly about a newish podcast that's taken the world by storm. Can you guess which one I'm talking about? It's called the All-In Podcast. It's now the number one I think they started in like October. It's now the number one tech podcast. It's now like number 11 podcast in the world or something like that. It's called the All-In Podcast featuring basically four very well known tech billionaires who are all like best mates. It's Chamath Palihapitiya, aka Chamath. David Sacks, who found he was part of the PayPal mafia and then founded Yammer, which then sold to Microsoft, and now does a lot of investing. Jason Calacanis, who is also investor, he doesn't stop going on about how he was the first investor in Uber. And then David Friedberg, who founded a company called The Climate Corporation, which got acquired for a lot of money, and now he also does investing in random stuff. Anyway, so these four billionaires, basically, they were like best mates for a while. And I think they basically have like, if you've heard Chamath on other people's podcasts, like The Knowledge Project, or Tim Ferriss, or whatever he taught, he's mentioned a few times a while ago that's you know, the thing I live for is that every Friday night, me and my buddies would get together and we play poker. And that's like, you know, always happens every Friday no matter what. So no matter what else is going on in our lives, where things are going like well or poorly, we're always going to hang out and play poker and it's going to be great. And I think this group is basically the the poker buddies that he's mentioned a few times. And, yeah, I think I think the podcast is just like completely exploded, I think, first of all, because, I mean, these guys are like, super well known, especially Chamath nowadays. And so you know, if four well known billionaire start podcast where they hang out a lot, of course, people are gonna listen. But II think the real reason is a similar reason I think why people enjoy this podcast and a similar reason I think, why people enjoy My First Million Podcast, which is that people enjoy basically authenticity. Like, it's not a it's not like an interview format podcast. It's four people who are really good friends, keeping it real, you know, joking around with each other, talking about stuff that they're interested in, all of that kind of stuff. And it's, it's certainly feels very authentic. And I think like, when I'm listening to it, I almost don't really care what they're talking about. I'm almost just, like, just listening for the vibes. I mean, it just so happens that it's generally stuff I'm interested in, like, latest going goings on in like, you know, tech or business or general like the world. But it's really just about soaking in the vibes. It's like, I think it's the same reason I, you know, people watch David Dobrik vlogs. You know, it's productized vibes. And I think the same goes for Not Overthinking for a lot of people where, you know, you and I know each other quite well, just kind of hanging out bantering, occasionally talking about maybe interesting stuff. But I think it's more about the vibes than about the actual topics and things like that. So I think that's been an interesting phenomenon. And I've been getting into it recently. It's really good.
Ali
I will check it out. And we will, of course, link that in the show notes. And I realized that what do you use? What do you use for your podcast these days?
Taimur
I use Air Audio, but it's so buggy, man. [...]
Ali
I know, it's really annoying. Like, I have this weird phenomenon where, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with it. It's like, I know that Air is the gold standard for listening to podcasts because then I can clip things from them. But it's so buggy to the point. It's so buggy that it makes listening to podcasts and actively unpleasant experience. Therefore, since discovering Air, I've actually listened to about five podcasts. Whereas before using this before discovering Air, I'd listened to about 500 podcasts that year. And it's like. I know that I feel bad listening to a podcast using something other than Air. Because the guys are cool and I'm you know, we've been chatting to them online but be because I know it's the gold standard. I shouldn't be being able to take notes from them, even though I've never once ever looked at my Air highlights from podcasts.
Taimur
I've never looked. (laughs)
Ali
[...] Apparently the founders are listeners to Not O.verthinking.
Taimur
Okay, yeah, I think we've DM on Twitter occasionally. I think we're Twitter mutual's.I want to support like a nice I've been coming product, the concept is killer. The triple click on the professional airports interaction is absolutely killer. I think every every audio app should copy that. I wish Amazon audible would literally just copy that interaction. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they came up with that interaction. But every now and then, a product comes up with something that is so good that it should actually just be copied. And that's a contribution to like stories on Snapchat. You know, everyone should just copy the the triple click to save the last 15 seconds. Anyway, why don't we get on to the actual episode? What are we talking about?
Ali
We are talking about a discussion about the book "The Righteous Mind". We were meant to do this last week, but we ended up just waffling about, I can't even remember what it was.
Taimur
Can you speak up by the way? Or like move your mic closer? Because I remember on last week's, at least on the YouTube video, your audio was a lot quieter than mine. I think it gets equalized on the podcast thing, but it doesn't on YouTube or something.
Ali
Oh, interesting.
Taimur
Okay, this is better.
Ali
Reminder to equalize audio for a YouTube video as well. Yeah. So we're talking about the righteous mind by Jonathan Haidt. And I listened to this on Audible. So I actually don't have my own personal notes on it. But I am actually using an app called shortform.com. And in fact, I'll put an affiliate link to shortform.com/ali, where you can get a free trial of this is actually sick. This is now like I've been I've been chatting to the guy who who, who made this, it's like so much better than Blinkist. And they just give you decent book summaries that are like so they give you like a one page summary, which is slightly more detailed than the Blinkers one would be. But then in addition to that, they also have like detailed chapter by chapter summaries, and they're all very well written and it's just like their like, aim is capturing 90% of the value of a book in less than 10% of the words, fewer than 10% of the words. So I'm going to be using the short form summary of "The Righteous Mind" as like a kicking off point for having having a chat about this. And I'll just read out kind of the overview for you. In fact, do you know what "The Righteous Mind" is about like what's your?
Taimur
I actually read "The Righteous Mind" a bunch of years ago. I remember really liking it, but I can't remember any of the details. And I did. I didn't have a second brain back then, so..
Ali
And now that you do you still can't. In "The Righteous Mind" moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt explains why liberals, conservatives and libertarians all have different understandings of right and wrong. He argues that moral judgments are emotional, not logical. They are based on stories rather than reason. Consequently, liberals and conservatives and lack a common language and reason based arguments about morality are ineffective. This leads to political polarization. "The Righteous Mind" builds this argument on thr e basic principles. One, morality is more intuitive than rational. Two, morali y is about more than fairness and harm, and three, morality binds and blinds s. And those are like the three sections of the book. So you know what, I'm just actually going to read this one page summary, we can just, you can just interrupt me at various points, and I will do so as well as we have thoughts. So principle one, morality is more intuitive than rational morality is origins. To understand why morality is primarily intuitive, we first need to understand how morality evolved. The question of where morality comes from has plagued scholars for centuries. One of the most common answers is that morality is innate. However, the truth is more complex. In fact, morality is culture dependent. For example, Westerners are unique in their prioritization of individual rights over the common good. The individualistic society in which Westerners live now is a product of the relatively recent enlightenment. In individualistic societies, the role of society is to serve the individual. However, most societies are subordinate to the needs of the individual to the needs of the group. They are socio centric, individualistic, and socio centric societies make different moral judgments. For example, in a socio centric society, it might be morally wrong to move away from your family to pursue a promotion, whereas this is expected in an individualistic society. This shows that contrary to what many people think morality isn't innate, it sort of reminds me of the like, often this is what would this is what a lot of the kids stuff comes down to. That is your morality individualistic? Or is it more socio centric?
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's always like attention. But I mean, I don't know if anyone would advocate, would advocate for, for like, the extreme position of morality, morality is entirely innate, or entirely, you know, socialized. The point about moving away from your parents. It's a fairly nuanced thing. Well, yeah. understandable, that is socialized, but for more fundamental things, like, you know, killing people and stuff like that. I think it's, you know, it's a little different, right, [...]
Ali
Yeah, we'll come on to the different moral taste receptors shortly. I think that was like the main thing that I took away from this, but I'm just kind of going through the summary of the summary. Anyway, intuition and rationality. If morality is largely a cultural construct, do intuition, or rationality play any part in moral decision making? Yes, but the roles may surprise you. The human mind functions, something like an elephant with a rider on top, the elephant, which represents intuition makes most of the decisions guiding itself and the rider in different directions in response to all of the stimuli it takes in. The rider or reason can occasionally affect the elephants path a bit. But it's mostly there to explain the decisions of the elephant after the elephant makes them. moral reasoning is thus not a search for any empirical truth. As much as it is a method by which we justify our moral decisions. We only change our minds, when people we respect talk to and appeal to our intuition, we'll listen to them because we are social creatures who are desperate for the approval of our peers. Essentially, we care more about others thinking we're doing the right thing than we do about actually doing the right thing. This is, this is something that you and I have figured out whenever we discuss incest with our friends, as I certainly like to do when I was a university.
Taimur
A common topic, yeah.
Ali
A common topic, yeah. Fantastic topic. It's like, why is incest bad? Oh, well, it is. And then like, we have this gut response to the idea of incest being bad. And then we try and post hoc rationalize it away. Andwhen you can meet those rationalizations with reasonable objections. The response is always Oh, I don't know why it's wrong. It just it just kind of is, you know, something's just wrong. And there's no way to kind of get past that. Beyond
Taimur
Yeah, but one thing I've come to sort of. So I think a few years without being like, ago, I'd walk away from that sort of feeling a bit triumphant, or whatever they are, they're just fighting whatever. But like, at its core, like any, yeah, at it's core. Everything comes down to like, moral intuitions, like at some point, if you if you unpack things long enough, regarding any moral issue, you will reach a point at which someone says, look, it just seems that way. Okay. You'll hit the bedrock of like, this is just someone's moral intuition. And that's perfectly reasonable like with all of your positions, if you unpack them enough, you will hit the bedrock of moral intuitions. Like, yeah, I guess on the incest thing you can maybe convince someone that is it's actually like, you know that their incest position is actually very inconsistent with a bunch of their other moral intuitions. And so maybe it's worth thinking about. But like, I think I think in the past, I used to think that there is some, you know, yeah, I think I sort of, over, over valued or over emphasized the role of like, reason, when actually like, all of this stuff eventually does just come down to intuitions.
Ali
Yes. To an extent. I mean, partly what this book is about in bulk is about defining these six different intuitions that we have about morality, and how the incesting will play into one of them more likely, or how, you know, various moral intuitions when you dig down into the reasoning with enough depth, you arrive at one of these six taste receptors that where that particular moral intuition takes.
Taimur
Oh, got it.
Ali
I think, I think it's still like, obviously, it still is useful to to question the, especially because a lot of us, like, unless we like routinely read stuff like this, we probably think that our moral intuitions are reasonably justified. And so for example, someone who thinks incest who'd like genuinely believe it, who believes that incest is bad it most people until they're questioned about it. We'll probably think that their hatred of incest is rational, rather than, you know, just a moral intuition. I'm sure you got to a point where it's more or less, but but you know, at some point, people thought it was just a moral intuition that black people were super like inferior to white people, like, you know, people would have used that in the past.
Taimur
Yeah, it's absolutely worth questioning these things. Yes. But yeah, I'm just trying to say that I'm, I'm more sympathetic to appeals to moral intuition than I used to be.
Ali
Exactly. Alright, moving on how we justify our moral decisions. The fact that we're social creatures is key to understanding why we make the moral decisions we do. We act morally, primarily because we fear the social ramifications of getting caught acting immorally we behave in ways we know we could justify to others if we had to. In this sense, the purpose of moral reasoning is to help us advance socially, whether by maintaining our reputations as moral individuals, or persuading others to take our side and conflict. Consequently, we think much more like a politician trying to win over constituents than a scientist looking for truth. Five examples prove this point. One, we are fascinated by polling data of ourselves. Experiments show that no matter how much someone says they don't care what others think of them, their self esteem will plummet when told that strangers don't like them, and will rise rapidly when told strangers do. On an unconscious level we're constantly measuring our social status. The elephant, part of the mind is concerned about what others think of us, even if the writer of the rational mind isn't. Two, we all have a press secretary constantly justifying everything. In other words, we all have confirmation bias and are constantly on the hunt like a press secretary for evidence that justifies our way of thinking. Simultaneously, we ignore anything that might challenge it. Research shows that people with higher IQs can generate more arguments to support a viewpoint, but only for their own side. As soon as the elephant leans in a direction the rider starts looking for reasons to explain it. This press actually stuff as well, l ike in the actual book, this was tough. I was like, Oh my god, this is so true.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah, I think this thing around like, yeah, being able, you know, being able to just like rationalize your own feelings. Someone told me this about a year and a half ago or something. I think he accused me of being in danger of just being very good at rationalizing my own sort of, you know, whatever decision I sort of actually want to make, be able to come up with a good rationalization to tell myself in order to make that decision. I think that's, that's a really big trap.
Ali
Three, we rationalize cheating and lying so well, that we can convince ourselves we're honest, like politicians when given the opportunity and plausible deniability. Most people will cheat, but still believe that they are virtuous, they cheat up to the point where they can no longer rationalize the cheating. In one study, when a cashier handed a subject more money than she was due, only 20% of the subjects corrected the mistake. Because they were passive participants in the transaction. They could reconcile keeping the extra money with the belief that they were honest people. However, when the cashier asked if the amount was correct, 60% of people corrected the cashiers mistake and gave the extra money back. In this case, it was harder to deny responsibility for the mistake, because the cashier directly asked them about it. Four, we can reason ourselves into any idea. If we want to believe in something we ask, can I believe it and look for reasons to believe as soon as we find a piece of evidence, even if it's weak, we stopped searching and feel justified in that belief. On the other hand, if we don't want to believe something, we ask must I believe it and look for reasons not to. If we find even one piece of counter evidence, we feel justified in not believing it. In some, unlike scientists who generally change their theories in response to the strongest evidence, most people believe what they want to believe.
Taimur
I 100% back this maybe I want to.
Ali
you want to 100% at? I think this just ties so much into the religion thing, like, anytime I try and or I feel like anytime anyone tries to take evidence based approach to religion, you run into this thing very quickly of to what extent do you actually want to believe the thing. And then once you've made that decision, you can find evidence for it one way or another. Finally, five, we believe any evidence that supports our team, this is why people don't vote based on their self interest. Rather, people care about the group's political, racial, regional, religious, and base their decisions on their participation in those groups. For example, when people are shown a hypocritical statements made by political leaders in their chosen party, they start squirming and looking for justification. On the other hand, when they see the same hypocrisy from an opponent, they delight in it and don't attempt to justify it. Furthermore, when they're shown a statement that releases their candidate from something that looked hypocritical, they get a hit of dopamine in the brain of the partisan starts to need that dopamine, being a partisan person is literally addictive. And obviously, this is a summary of a summary. So in the actual book, they expand on this a lot. I thought this was interesting, because until I read this, in the book, I didn't quite appreciate this thing of people not voting based on their own self interest. And certainly the people, a lot of the people that I knew when I think in 2016, when Brexit happened, when the conservatives got elected in the UK. A lot of my friends were absolutely baffled as to how this could happen, and how it was predominantly working class people in the north who were also voting conservative, saying that, but this this, like literally goes, it goes against your own self interest, like, you know, if anything lately, you know, to simplify a large amount f nuance, Labour Party support to the poor, and it's a little bit more socialist, and therefore, you actually, you're actually better off if you vote labour as a working class person, then you're if you vote conservatives, we're conservative here, which is historically the party of the wealthy, equally with the whole Trump stuff, like, why is it that white working class people in Middle America voted for Trump? Why are some, like ethnic minorities also voting for Trump? It's because of the group identity rather than individual self interest. And yeah, there was so many bits of Oh, boy, I was just like nodding my head vigorously. I was like, Oh, my God, this makes this finally makes sense. Yeah, in response to this thing, where I've always been a bit like hmm about it for a while. These rationalizations don't lead or create our morality. Rather, rationalizations happen after we make decisions in order to justify our intuition, and to convince others and ourselves that we're moral beings. All right. Now, here's where we start get interesting. So, principles, we've done kind of the first third of the book, Principle number two, morality is more than fairness and harm. Even once we know that morality is both intuitive and socially constructed, it's natural to believe that everyone's morality is at least based on the shared principles of not harming others and ensuring fairness, our ego example of well, when it comes to killing people, you know, that's kind of universally morally bad. This section proves that actually groups around the world operate according to different moral frameworks, and that we need to consider these differences when thinking about how to get along better with one another. Now, as an aside, there is have you come across this concept of weird morality like weird.
Taimur
Rings a bell. Western, something something?
Ali
Yeah, exactly. So people who grew up in places that are Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic, or weird, are significant statistical outliers. However, they are the subjects of the Grand majority of social science research. This means that research gives us a narrow and inaccurate understanding of human nature, causing us to believe that weird morality is the normal or right morality. So again, Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic, which would probably describe most people who listened to this podcast if our analytics or anything to go by Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic. I suspect most people who listened to this podcast could not imagine voting Republican. And so when, yeah, like we are the perfect demographic that a lot of the social science studies are based around. But, you know, obviously, this combination of things is actually a significant statistical outlier in the grand scheme of the human past.
Taimur
Sorry, I don't think it means democratic in the sense of Democrats versus Republicans. I think it literally means democratic in the sense of you live in a country which is on the face of it a democracy. I don't think it means democrats versus republicans that yeah, I'm 99% sure of that.
Ali
Well, that's odd. I read that as..
Taimur
Dude come on, just thinking of that.
Ali
Okay, you might be right. I need to read real issen to this bit of the book because I read that I heard that as being okay, Democrats at the time, but maybe that was my confirmation bias be. Okay, for well educated secular Westerners ethics centers around the harm principle introduced by John Stuart Mill in 19 1859. The only reason anyone should exercise power in a civilized society is to prevent harm. However, if you're living in a non weird place, your morality is likely to be more expensive than just preventing harm and ensuring fairness. In weird societies, morality also sometimes extends beyond the harm principles. But it's more foundational in non weird places, rather than just to the harm principle.Morality actually centers around three types of ethics. One, the ethic of autonomy, this is the concept that people are individuals have their own autonomous wants and needs, societies developed rights, like the right to liberty and justice, in order to allow people to pursue their own individual wishes. This is the dominant ethic as you might expect in an individualistic society. Along with the harm principle, the ethic of autonomy is the foundation of morality in weird societies. But there are two other ethics that are strong around the world. Two, the ethic of community. This is the idea that people are first part of a group, a family, nation, team, company, and so on. These entities are important beyond the people who make them up. Moral concepts like duty, respect, and hierarchy are essential to this ethic. The idea that people should design their own lives is actively dangerous to the group and will weaken the social fabric, and three, the ethic of divinity. This is the idea that people are simply vessels of a divine soul, they are God's creations, and the intent of honoring God should guide their behavior. According to this ethic, sex with a dead chicken is morally wrong, not because it hurts the community or the individual, but because of dishonor is the creator and violate the universe, the concepts of purity, sanctity, pollution, degradation, and elevation, are particularly important in this ethic, people who believe in this ethic view in the people who believe in this ethic view the personal liberties in Western nations an libertinism, because they often conflict with more Orthodox religious teachings. This is another one that is interesting, because I've come across this having sex with a dead chicken experiment before and I could never quite square in many contexts, I could never quite figure out with the terminology I had before I listened to this book. Why this was, like, morally bad. Yeah. Because it's like, well, it's not harming anyone and like, the chickens dead. So like, what's the matter? It's like, if all you have is the Care Harm Foundation, like, you know, Thou shalt not harm others. It's very, very difficult to justify why that feels really, really, really weird. But the ethic of divinity is like, okay, I was like, I don't have the vocabulary to explain why this is a thing.
Taimur
I mean, sorry, what? Like the ethic, the ethic of divinity doesn't explain anything. It's just saying that, no, just saying but like things that we don't like things like having sex with dead chickens.
Ali
The ethic of divinity is saying that there is a strand of morality away like that, that is actively separate from the care harm principle, which involves purity, sanctity, pollution, and degradation. And those are the things that people are appealing to. Those are our moral. Those are, those are the building blocks of our moral intuition about why having sex with a with a dead chicken is wrong. Whereas before, before having that mental model slash terminology, I would have struggled to explain it. Because all I had was like, well, it's not really harming others, therefore, like, why is it bad?
Taimur
Okay, got it.
Ali
The western attempt to [...] society and just one principle, like preventing harm leads to societies that are both unsatisfying, and potentially inhumane because they ignore so many other moral principles. Additionally, it's hard to accept that any that another morality is possible or moral. For example, a weird resident traveling to a non weird place might have trouble understanding the ethic of divinity. This is part of what makes it difficult for us to understand one another. All right, here we go, is [...] moralities taste receptors. Another reason people from different backgrounds have so much trouble understanding each other's values is that in addition to the three types of ethics, the righteous mind has six taste receptors, like a tongue. These receptors are the foundation of our personal moralities people respond to these foundations in different ways. Just like people's tongues respond to food differently. Here are the foundations. Number one, the Care Harm Foundation, the Care Harm Foundation, prioritizes the values of kindness and nurturing. Humans have innate feelings of protectiveness, and understanding of distress or suffering. This helps children to survive because their parents or even strangers feel the need to take care of them, and makes groups more tight knit brought together by caring for one another. In the US, liberals rely much more on the Care Harm foundation than conservatives, for instance, for instance, a liberal might have a bumper sticker with a message like saved or for or peace or even save the planet. The Care Harm Foundation is part of the conservative morality as well, but it's not as foundational. For example, conservatives might have a bumper sticker that reads "Wounded Warrior" when which asks that we care for people who have sacrificed for the larger group. I remember when I was listening to this book like that, on that weekend, I went on a date with someone who I met on Hinge. This was like a, like, probably a year to 18 months ago at this point. And we were kind of chatting about this stuff. And I brought up the six maltase receptors because I was curious about this. And she was like, oh my god like that, that first one like 100% describes everything I care about in the world. For someone who had like she was working for like a charity. And she cared a lot about like, helping the suffering of like working class women in the UK and kind of women of color and all this sort of stuff. And she was like, Oh, my God, yeah, that is like, that isn't the reason why I care about about this. So this is sort of the foundational thing amongst liberals slash lefties, whereas conservatives slash righties care, they care about it, but it's like, you know, one of six as opposed to one of one for them.
Taimur
How did this come up on the date?
Ali
I think we're talking about books that we were reading something like that. I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm listening to this thing called "The Righteous Mind" is really good. I talked about this and that and it tied in because her work was all like charity. So I was I was actually curious about what she thinks of like, like, you know, do these six moral taste buds resonate with you?
Taimur
Okay, nice.
Ali
Okay, number two. So we talked about one the Care Harm Foundation. Two, the Fairness Cheating Foundation, the Fairness Cheating Foundation, prioritizes, the values of rights and justice, the left and the right, are both concerned about fairness in American society, but in different ways. The left is often angry that the rich don't pay their fair share. The right argues that Democrats are trying to take money from Americans who work hard and give it to lazy people or illegal immigrants. Fairness is utter equality on the left, but proportionality on the right, ie people are rewarded for their contributions to society.And that was an interesting one, this one I ran past this girl as well and she was like, yeah, that's that sounds very much like her whole vibe was. Yes, of course, you want to, you know, take from the rich and distribute it to the, to the less deserving people in society and how can you possibly think doing so doing otherwise is moral? Whereas I think sometimes when we spoken to Mimi about this, her morality leans somewhat towards proportionality, which is that look, people who work hard should be rewarded for their working hard, and people who don't shouldn't necessarily, you know, shouldn't be rewarded from the people who actually do work hard. And so, again, Fairness Cheating Foundation. That's very interesting. Yeah. Okay, so those were two of the six. The third one is the Loyalty Betrayal Foundation. The Loyalty Betrayal Foundation prioritizes, the values of self sacrifice for the good of the group, and patriotism. For thousands of years, humans created groups in order to fend off rival groups. This creates an intense and innate sense of loyalty within all of us. However, the left has much more trouble using the loyalty foundation to their advantage, because they often disparage nationalism, and sometimes American foreign policy, because they admonish American policy. Some conservatives see liberals as disloyal. Like it makes sense. I don't know many people at all, who are pro American followed for foreign policy, but I'm sure I'm sure they exist. Okay. Yeah, so those are three. Number four is the Authority Suberversion Foundation. The Authority Suberversion Foundation, prioritizes, the values of leadership, deference and tradition, cultures vary significantly, and how much authority and hierarchy they demand. Authority comes with responsibility. People in a hierarchy have mutual expectations of each other, those at the top are expected to protect those at the bottom, while those at the bottom are expected to serve those at the top. Again, it's easier for the right to adopt this foundation than the left, because the left defines itself against hierarchy and the inequality and power structures that result.
Taimur
Yeah, this one's pretty good. I have a we actually have a mutual friend who I think one of the biggest differences between him and me is that he is he's all about, like, submitting to authority. And yeah, I think that was like, what, you can pretty much predict what things we disagree on, because it always comes down to that.
Ali
Okay, like, for example?
Taimur
Like,I think his general view is very skeptical towards like, you know, 21 year olds who decide to start their own company, rather than, you know, getting 10 years of experience working in a corporation, then, you know, once they know some stuff, then like, you're doing their own thing, or all this kind of stuff. And, yeah, just generally like very, very trusting of just like, generally conservative and trusting in that the old the traditional ways of doing things by default, and being very hesitant to question those or go against those.
Ali
Sounds a lot like Mimi as well.
Taimur
Yeah, maybe
Ali
Like in terms of having in terms of large amounts of respect for institutional things. For example, like, you know, if you want to do this thing, you should get the appropriate qualification from a degree from the appropriate institution of higher education.And then you can do the thing as opposed to the more modern lefty way of doing it, which is I'm just gonna do the thing. And I'll figure it out along the way. But that sort of comes to the Authority Suberversion Foundation. So that was number four, two more to go. Number five, the Sanctity Degradation Foundation, the Sanctity Degradation Foundation prioritizes, the values of purity and sanctity. This foundation is based on the idea that unlike mere animals, we have a soul. Sacredness helps us build communities around a shared principle, often that humans have a creator or creators who asked them to perform specific rituals to honor them and their creations. certain cultures are more likely to believe immigrants will bring disease or dishonor to their society than others. Certain actions are untouchable because they are too dirty, like drinking straight from the Hudson River in New York City, apparently, and others are untouchable because they are too sacred, like a cross for Christians or even the principle of liberty. American conservatives talk about the sanctity of marriage or the sanctity of life, much more than liberals, religious conservatives are more likely to have this foundation as they are likely to view the body as housing a soul. Yeah, I think this is one that like basically every, almost every religious person I know. I, you know, with caveat, I don't like the word religious, but almost every religious person I know views like Western liberalism as being, quote bad. Because of this kind of, you know, they're, they're acting like animals, they're like having sex with whoever they want. Like, this is not how humans were meant to live, like we have, you know, there is sanctity, and like the human soul, human life, blah, blah, blah. We don't want to do what the animals do kind of vibe, which kind of speaks to the Sanctity Degradation Foundation. But again, something that liberals slash lefties don't really use very much. And therefore often find it difficult to understand.
Taimur
Why you dont like the word religious?
Ali
I don't like the word religious, because I think mostly because when, if people ask me, are you religious? It's like, well, how do you want me to answer that? I used to get this a fair amount when I was at university, and it's like, well, I guess so in some respects. I mean, I, you know, I do this and that, but like, I mean, I know a lot of people are more religious than I am. And I'm not sure to what extent I actually believe this stuff in my heart versus I'm just going along with it. Like there's a lot of baggage associated with religious or not.
Taimur
So you just don't like being ask are you religious.
Ali
Yeah. And I think it's a, like, there's a lot of compression that goes into the phrase, I am religious. And whereas in reality, there's a large amount of nuance associated with that. And religious people would probably not want to, would probably cringe slightly at the thought of identifying as quick religious. For all of those reasons that well, you know, who am I to identify as like that? Anyway, the final one, number six is the Liberty Oppression Foundation, the Liberty Oppression Foundation, prioritizes, the value of and right to liberty, we recognize legitimate authority, but we want our authority figures to earn our trust. We are resistant to control without purpose, which can lead to a reactance. When an authority figure tells you to do something, and you decide to do the opposite, people band together to stop widespread domination, and they may even and they may resist, or even sometimes kill the oppressor. Biologically, people who couldn't recognize this kind of oppression coming, we're less likely to thought that we're less likely to thrive, oppression concerns both liberals and conservatives. Liberals are more worried about large systems of oppression that are helpful to the 1%. But keep the poor without opportunity. Conservatives are more worried about the oppression of their own groups. They say don't tread on me with high taxes, my business with regulations, or my nation, with the UN international treaties, I thought this one was was also very, very interesting because as a staunch lefty, obviously, it's like, my, my default mode of operation was like, like, why the hell does the US not sign these UN international treaties? Like what the hell is wrong with them? Or like, you know, how can anyone object to an extent before I became a business owner was like, how can anyone object to high taxes to help the poor? Whereas, yeah, liberals are more worried about large systems of oppression that are helpful to the 1%. But keep the poor without opportunity. Conservatives are more worried about the oppression of their own groups. And this section, the second section three ends with conservatives have an advantage in persuasive arguments, because they can tap into all six of these foundations. They can talk to people with each of these taste receptors, whereas liberals concentrate significantly on the Care Harm and Liberty Oppression foundations, along with the Fairness Cheating Foundation to a lesser extent, their arguments of this limited to a smaller group of people. And I thought this insight was like very interesting as well, because in the book, he goes into like, a lot about like, you know, this is what Obama said in his was about this is what Obama said in his speeches to rally the Democrats. This is what McCain was saying in his speech to rally the republicans etc, etc. Obama was really only speaking to Care Harm and Liberty Oppression, because those are the only two and to an extent Fairness Cheating, value, like moral values that liberals hold, adhere to them. Whereas if you look at the conservative and the republican speeches, they sort of do a scattergun approach to all of them. And so there are many more touch points for people to think oh my god, yeah, he's me. And you know, that stuff. You know, Trump would appeal to sanctity, Sanctity Degradation, Trump would appeal to Loyalty Betrayal, Trump would appeal to Authority Subversion, which are very much things that conservatives think Oh, yeah, yeah, he's talking about like, yeah, whereas like, you know, on the left, we only have really two foundations to appeal to. So I thought that was very, very interesting.
Taimur
That is pretty interesting.
Ali
Anyway, Principle number three, so three or three morality binds and blinds. At this point, you might be viewing morality, cynically believing that humans are inherently selfish, and that morality is primarily self serving and blinds us to reality. We make decisions with our guts, and then rationalize them so well, that we think we made them using reason we cheat when we think we won't get caught, and then convince ourselves we're honest, we care more about other thinking we're doing the right thing than we do about actually doing the right thing. But this portrayal of morality based solely on self interest isn't complete. In addition to being selfish people are also group-ish. We love to join groups, teams, clubs, political parties, religions, and so on. We are happy to work with lots of others towards a common goal that we must be built for teamwork. We can't fully understand morality until we understand the origin and the implications of our group-ish behavior, and how our morality is and bind us together, as well as blind us. Group-ish behavior, how did we become group-ish, Darwin argued that there are multiple reasons human first banded together, you know, social instincts, reciprocity, the principle of reciprocity, if you help others, they help you in return. And you know, this. Third, and most importantly, we developed a desire for social approval. People are concerned with what other people think of them and are eager to find praise and avoid blame. People who lack these three were selected against because they couldn't find mates or even friends. Thus, evolution selects for people who act for the good of the group. Since Darwin's time, researchers have found further evidence that humans do have group-ish tendencies and loads of stuff about evolution. And this ends with this, this idea that, remember that while a group-ish thinking is part of our evolution, we are still mostly selfish and individual. We're about 90% chimp who is self interested and only 10% be who is group interested. When you talked a little bit about flipping the switch, and how, you know, we, humans have the ability to flip a switch from being that self interested chimp to working like a group interested be. We're only hive creatures in certain surroundings. There are probably times in your own life when you flip the switch from chimp mode to be mode. Maybe when you're walking alone in nature, and you feel removed from the temporal worries and connected to the universe. Or perhaps you experienced the flip switch while you were at a rave, dancing with others together and feeling a shared exaltation. Lots of highs behavior, like dancing together, comes naturally to humans and serves to break down social class and a difference. There are appeals to the high of all over. Successful corporations will make their employees jobs specific and also make them feel as if they're contributing to the output of the company, thereby reinforcing a feeling of togetherness. Politicians also frequently employed the hive. Think about JFK's "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." The most successful nations are ones with lots of little hives that cross over within each other with each other, sometimes can be part of a family unit, a workplace, a sports team, sorry, someone can be part of a family unit, a workplace, a sports team, outside of work, and so on and on. In contrast, nations with no hives or those with huge hives, with one huge hive are much more likely to break down. He talks about kind of pros and cons of group-ish behavior. And here we go. There's some good stuff here about like, political arguments. Despite their beliefs, our moral frameworks are, despite their benefits. Our moral frameworks are increasingly making us more blind to how others understand the world, largely because of gaps in moral foundations. There's significant evidence that America is polarizing rapidly, with the gap widening between political opinions on the left and the right. For example, liberals and conservatives in America have different foundational stories about the country. Liberals argue that there used to be dictatorial, oppressive regimes that governed the world, which virtuous people through time and effort over through, they even they then found the democracies and started fighting for equal rights for all creating laws and government programs that could lift all boats. That's the liberal approach to the American origin story. Conservatives since the Reagan era say that America used to be a beacon of liberty, but liberals have attempted to ruin it by creating bureaucracy and tax burdens that stunt growth while also opposing faith and God. They took money from good hardworking people and gave it to lazy people living on welfare while lionizing evil promiscuity and a quote "gay lifestyle" there is significant value to the liberal understanding. It promotes a narrative of heroic triumph over the powerful through the weak bind the banding together. In doing so, it often is in a better position to secure rights and material gains for the less fortunate in society. Nevertheless, liberals have trouble understanding the concept of moral capital, defined as the resources that are necessary to sustain and grow a moral community. Conservatives argue that people need outside constraints to behave properly and thrive. Without them, people will cheat and social capital or trust will begin to decline. Moral capital is what promotes these constraints. If we don't promote constraints, like laws, traditions and religions, society will come apart at the seams, a lot of left wing policies fail because they don't seriously consider these constraints and the quick changes to them that the legislation brings. As a nation, we must find a way to understand moral capital, while also promoting ideas and laws that benefit all sectors of society. This will only happen if we can productively talk across party lines. And then there's like lots of specific stuff about, you know, changes that he would recommend for improving bipartisan collaboration in government, which I didn't personally find particularly interesting. But I think this thing of this is similar to, wasn't the constraint constrained theory of man that you talked about at one point?
Taimur
Yeah, yeah.
Ali
What was the deal with that?
Taimur
I think this was Thomas Sowell, sort of framework for why liberals and conservatives differ. Yeah, I think broadly, the constraint theory of man is that maybe I'll just like, look it up. I don't want to misstate anything.
Ali
Like my understanding of constraint theory of man was that it was that man will only do what's morally right if he is forced to by laws and traditions and stuff, which is like a conservative viewpoint, whereas the liberal viewpoint is the unconstrained theory of man, which is that people will act in good ways because people are inherently good and don't need the oppression, the oppressive laws and, you know, traditions and religions that we sometimes have today to govern their behavior.
Taimur
Which one did you think was which?
Ali
I thought constrained was conservative and unconstrained was liberal where it's like, but it's like systematic at that point was my rough definition legit?
Taimur
Wait, so you thought the constrained one was Liberals?
Ali
No Conservatives.
Taimur
Okay. On the Wikipedia page for this book, conflict of visions, it says that Jonathan Haidt references this in his book "The Righteous Mind" so the unconstrained vision of man relies heavily on the belief that human nature is essentially good. Those with an unconstrained vision, distrust, decentralized processes that are impatient with large institutions and systemic processes that constrain human action. They believe that there is an ideal solution to every problem, and that compromise is never acceptable. Ultimately, they believe that man is morally perfectible. And so they think that some people are further along the path of moral development and have overcome self interest. And it can therefore act as surrogate decision makers for the rest of society. So that sounds like liberals. And the constraint vision relies on the belief that human nature is essentially unchanging. And that man is naturally inherently self interested, regardless of the best intentions. So people who have this constraint division prefer the systematic processes of the rule of law and tradition. And they kind of see compromises being essential. Because there's no ideal solutions or trade offs. Ultimately, the constraint vision demands, checks and balances and refuses to accept that all people could put aside their innate self interest. I don't think either of these sort of, yeah, I never I didn't end up finishing the book. Yeah, it seems like the unconstrained vision is definitely a bit more liberal. But I don't think it like perfectly maps on to either of these. Steven Pinker, in his book, "The Blank Slate" thinks that Sowell's explanation is the best theory to date about these differences between people.
Ali
Nice. Cool. That's all I had on this front. That was "The Righteous Mind" by Jonathan Haidt. And, yeah, I thought that was interesting, because it's like, you know, the first time I've come across this idea of there being these six moral taste receptors, and thought is kind of cool.
Taimur
It makes me uneasy when you say, the idea of there being these six moral taste receptors.
Ali
As opposed to?
Taimur
That seems like an almost scientific claim, when this guy has just come up with an interesting framework.
Ali
I mean, he's a social scientist, and he's done like, sort of, he cites like, literally hundreds of studies in the book that where I mean, like, the, the point of social science is to come up with these sorts of theories. And then find like, create studies that confirm or reject them. And the way that the way he described it was like, initially, from his research of like, 20 years, he thought there were five principles. But then they had led sort of after another decade of research, they added a sixth one, because they realized there was actually this thing that wasn't quite explained by the other five and therefore, six. So it's like, you know, the standard scientific approach assigned, quote, quote, "scientific method" where you come up with a theory and then you find evidence to support that theory. And you change the theory depending on the evidence.
Taimur
New model taste perception drops.
Ali
Exactly. And given that it You know, it is social science that to an extent, it's not it's like gravity but like,
Taimur
Yeah, okay, fine, fine. So you listened to this a while ago? What has it changed about sort of the way you live your life on?
Ali
Taimur, every book doesn't have to be a self help book, God. It hasn't really changed the way I live my life. [...]
Taimur
It feel like it made more sense of the world or something.
Ali
Yeah, definitely. Like I could feel like as I was listening to it, similar to elephant in the brain actually. I can feel that while while listening to it, I was like, Oh, wow. You know, I'm, like, these sort of seeing connections between things that I didn't previously. And I was like, Oh, of course, that makes sense. Like, this is why this person acts like this. And this why this person and acts like that. And like, you know, obviously, there is some level of nuance here. And it doesn't fully explain all human behavior. But it goes, you'd like the six small taste receptors go a long way towards explaining why me and my lefty friends have certain moral intuitions and we can't fathom how people on the right could have certain moral intuitions. Whereas this was more like, okay, that's why people on the right think that, you know, respect for authority and the sanctity of marriage, the sanctity of life and the sanctity of the church and the institutions. And, you know, it'll kind of make sense. Whereas when you're operating from a, you know, the only morality that makes sense is care harm and liberty oppression, like you really see absolutely no way in which those people could be talking anything other than BS. Atleast that was how I thought of it before reading this.
Taimur
Yeah, I think just like, creating vocabulary for things is actually quite helpful.
Ali
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Anyway, if you guys are interested in reading more books and summaries like that, check out shortform.com/ali, I've linked it in the show notes, and you'll get an extended free trial or something like that. It's actually really good. The guy who made this website, actually, he and I got on quite well, because he dropped out of medical school. He was at he was at Harvard Medical School of doing like, the integrated Ph. D. program within the medical degree. And after a few years of it, he was like, You know what, I think the thing that really interests me is startups. And so he dropped out much to his parents dismay. So we had a bit of a chat about that. Yeah, he's cool. He's been helping me out on the book, because he reads a lot about like, productivity and meaning and all this sort of stuff as well.
Taimur
That's good. Though this has been a dry episode, you've kind of just like, read out a bunch of you've read out a summary. Book. That hasn't been too much commentary or anything.
Ali
Yeah, I feel like it would have been better if I had actual notes that I took. But in the absence of that, I don't know you guys what do you reckon, drops an email, message us on our slack community, if you're part of that, about what you thought about this sort of thing. And one thing I'd generally be more interested in doing is, like, for example, taking a random book that I haven't read, like, I don't know, antifragile. And then we just sort of go through the summary, like, blind almost and be like, Okay, cool. This kind of makes sense? I think that would be I think that could be interesting. Especially on a week where we don't, we haven't rocked up with something specific to discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, that could be worth a go. Yeah.
Ali
Equally like for like, for example, is find a blog post on less wrong and just kind of read through it on the podcast.
Taimur
Yeah, I think there's, there's lots of interesting stuff there that I haven't gotten around to.
Ali
Cool. Should we call it a day? Any insights of the week, if you like, it's been a while since we've done that?
Taimur
Oh, yeah, we haven't done insights for the week for a while. I guess I gave a little insight about the All-In podcasts, I'd really recommend the All-un podcast, anyone listening to check it out.
Ali
Nice. My insight is that so I've recently realized the power of just doodling on my iPad on Procreate, which is this drawing app for the iPad with the Apple Pencil. And so now, like, last night, Sheen and I were watching the final two episodes of Chernobyl, fantastic TV show, if you haven't seen it, it was the first three like two days ago. And I find that when I'm watching TV, maybe this is just my neuroses speaking but like, I find it very hard to like not to do something concurrently.
Taimur
[...] unproductive
Ali
I don't think is that I just feel I always have, I always have excess energy, where it's like, if I'm just sitting on the couch, watching a TV show, it just sort of feels like a large chunk of my I don't know, energy is just being wasted away.
Taimur
That's how usually productivity thing if you're saying the word wasting.
Ali
I mean, I don't think a productivity thing is necessarily bad. But like I've had this for years, it's like, you know, in school when I'd be watching TV shows on my laptop, you know, every day after school, I'd be shuffling a deck of cards, or like doing a coin twirl or trying to try to do stuff like that. Even now, when I'm watching like YouTube videos on my desk, I'll often be kind of flicking a pen in between my fingers. And maybe I should just learn to in fact, I'm doing like a 30 days of meditation experiment as I reflect today, where I should just learn to sit still. But given that I'm now I'm all about kind of being myself and not being shackled by what society tells me to do. I realized the power of doodling on my iPad Pro while while watching TV is great because because like when you're learning art, as I've been doing since January, I'm not I'm having less than three times a week, but it's like when when trying to draw when doing finger drawing or life drawing, like drawing pictures of people, there's a lot of like, you know, like, the standard poses that you get is like a bunch of like butt naked people in like various poses with like, like the arms in different poses or holding a sword or holding a gun.
Taimur
Where can I see them?
Ali
I'll send you I'll send you a zip file. So this was how I was practicing. But what I realized is that a.. I don't know if I'm, if I'm admitting something here that I shouldn't be admitting. But what I realized is that I could just go on the models subreddit and find models in like bikinis and use them as like my references for drawing sketches. Rather than, you know, these like fully butt naked art poses that you get on like an art course.com. That's actually that's been a surprising amount of fun.
Taimur
This is an incredible amount of rationalization. (laughs) Yeah, so I actually I'm trying to learn. I'm having lessons three times a week. And I think the best the best approach is to go on the models subreddit, look at bikini models.
Ali
It's actually great. I love it. And I did about 10 of them yesterday. sketches that is, and yeah, it was good while watching Chernobyl. So I would recommend, it's also very, I think, it's also very easy to think to do when you're on a phone call with someone. So I've had a phone call my friend Chris yesterday for about an hour after just kind of sitting there doodling on the iPad and did like two or three sketches in that time. I was just sort of something nice to be doing while I was talking to him on the AirPods.
Taimur
Yeah, that does sound nice. I quite like doodling while doing other things like pen and paper. I'll just kind of be doodling. I used to get told off for that university, but whatevs on the topic of TV shows. Have you heard of a show called "Life's Too Short"?
Ali
No.
Taimur
I watched it this week. It's a Ricky Gervais thing. is from like 2011 It stars Warwick Davis, you know Warwick Davis?
Ali
Oh, yeah.
Taimur
Yeah, so Warwick is the main character Warwick was an Ewok in some in some Star Wars films. And he was Professor flitwick. In Harry Potter. I feel like he would he might have also been some of the goblins.
Ali
I think he was some of the goblins as well.
Taimur
like the green Gods guy or whatever and stuff. Anyway, Warwick Davis sort of is a dwarf British actor. And the show is just ridiculously funny. Like it is. It is unbelievable. I think I discovered it because I that there's this clip some clips on YouTube. And there's there's a few like famous guest stars and some of the episodes like there's there's a clip with Liam Neeson in it. Which is like, ridiculously funny. There's another sort of clip with Helena Bonham Carter in it, which is also ridiculous. If I think I sent you that. Did you watch it?
Ali
I did, yes. It was all right.
Taimur
No, you've got to try the show. It's seven episodes. I think the only annoying thing about Ricky Gervais things is that there's never enough episodes. Like Derrick was an absolute masterpiece. There's a two seasons. This has one season of seven episodes. And he's just like, the funniest thing. Like, I think I've had longer laughs in this than anything else like there'll be a joke where then like, have to pause the thing just to laugh for like 20 seconds straight, because it's just so funny. And yeah, I can't remember the last show that was quite as like mega funny in terms of magnitude. But it's also kind of depressing. It's depressing in the same way that the office is depressing when you think about it. My mom and I are watching The Office with dinner these days. And I think she just we find it funny, but I think she just gets really sad. Because like, yeah, Michaels plates is just very, very sad. And in the same way, like the whole show is centered around Warwick. It could be like, a washed up sort of no longer celebrity that no one's ever heard of. He's He's still trying to like hold on to the fact that he was a couple of films and there's like a running joke that, you know, he was in Harry Potter and he was in Star Wars but his face wasn't actually showed there was it was it was covered in like a costume. And he's always yeah, he's trying to like, he's trying to yeah, act like he's some big man, Hollywood star. And he's still got it and all this stuff. But actually, like, no one knows who he is anymore. And his wife is divorcing him and he's lost all his money. Yeah, it's like it's depressing. It's cool, but, but is very, very funny. Anyway, "Life's Too Short" Check it out. You can buy season one on YouTube for tenner. That's what I did. Be able to link to a couple of the clips.
Ali
Alrighty. Life's too short.
Taimur
Dude, just buy season on YouTube for tenner and watch it with Sheen, it's just so good. It's half an hour and episodes. There's seven episodes. It's like, just watch. watch an episode tonight. Come on.
Ali
Alright, fine. We'll watch an episode tonight. Sheen wasn't a fan of Helena Bonham Carter clip for the record, but we'll give it a shot.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Cool. Do you wanna read that review and we'll call it a day.
Taimur
All right. This is an interesting review. It's a five star review. But the title is "Seen Better Days." All right. And now just I'm not reading out this review just to like dunk on you. I just I'm genuinely curious to hear your thoughts. It's from Yasmin A in Great Britain. Yasmin says Taimur is the main reason I still occasionally listen to this podcast. Sometimes it makes it seem like this is an extension of his YouTube channel, which isn't the content I expected to find here. The podcast was so much better at the beginning, there was more balance, which made for a really interesting listen. Now, not so much unfortunately, I do wish Ali would try and find some sort of distinction between the content here and his other work projects to avoid overlap. What do you think about that?
Ali
Yeah, fair play. What I actually think about that? I mean, I analytics show that things like, you know, repurposing a deep dive with Austin Kleon and Noah Kagan gets more downloads and more plays than a random episode of you and me. And that's very much like, more my YouTube style content, I think, hmm. I feel like it's, it's, it's a tricky one. Because it's like, the, the stuff I do on YouTube is basically an extension of me. And that's what I show up to with the podcast. Like, that's who I show up to the podcast as, and I have no real interest in satellite or slash. I don't really have a desire to, I don't know, buckets myself in a way that okay, on YouTube, I'm only going to talk about productivity. And on the podcast, I'm only going to talk about social interaction. Like, both are very much areas that I'm interested in. And I think that's like one of the it's one of the nice things, but also one of the annoying things about doing this sort of internet guru, personal brand type stuff, where some people will be annoyed when you're not sticking to your lane. And some people will be like, Oh, my God, please don't stick to your lane, please just kind of, you know, talk about whatever you like, because it's interesting. And that's something that all YouTubers have to struggle with. It's like, Well, I know that the more I define my nice, the more I stick to my lane, the more my channel will grow. Because that's just how the algorithm works. That's not really what I want to do. So, I mean, yeah, I take the point that there's not much of a separation between who I am on my channel and who I am on the podcast. I would say the reason for that, is that because it's just me, and I tried to be my authentic self in both both domains. But hey, that's fine. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Taimur
I wonder if that's why I'm actually not I'm not too sure what she's getting at like she might be getting at the fact that occasionally we miss a week and we just upload one of your YouTube interview type things with some other online...
Ali
That's not what she's getting at.
Taimur
You don't think that's what she's getting at?
Ali
No, she's saying that the content like she listens to the podcast for you. Like the content on it seems to be..
Taimur
If we look at recent episodes, that we if you look at recent episodes, like I don't think they've been to productivity guru, to be honest, I mean, if that is actually like, your, your brand or something. Let's look at the list of recent episodes, open Air Audio and have it not work on me.
Ali
I mean, I'm just getting using Spotify to be honest.
Taimur
Alright, so we had an episode recently. Should we be trying to build online audience? I think that was fine, too. Because
Ali
I guess should we be building an online audience? If you looked at it looked at the title, you'd be like, oh, Ali's content.
Taimur
No, no, she actually left the review before we publish that episode. Like, okay, I guess there was the one with Neel about optimizing for meaningful life. Maybe that sort of I thought probing questions to reflect on 2020. Maybe, what do we want from life extension? How authentic are we? I don't know, I think apart from..
Ali
In the case I thought all of these are reasonable episodes.
Taimur
Yeah. Apart from the in between says, I don't think these are like, No, I'm pretty I'm pretty sensitive to like, you know, the creative vision here. And yeah, I think in between episodes definitely go against the creative vision of the of the podcast, at least for me. I don't think the recent episodes have too much. Yeah, I don't know, Yasmin, if you're listening, drop us an email. I'm curious to hear what you think. Because Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think the creative vision I have in mind for the podcast is quite different to sort of productivity guru type stuff. So I'm curious if that's actually how things are coming across me. Thanks for listening. Sorry, this is a bit of a dry episode. Yeah, send us your feedback. Don't leave a bad review, though. send it via email, if it's bad. Send it in the app store if it's good.
Ali
Exactly, or Tweet to us [...] Slack.
Taimur
[...]
Ali
Do you guys actually think that this was a dry episode? Because I think often we're not the best judges for what is a good episode and what isn't?
Taimur
Yeah, I think the nice thing about uploading the episodes to YouTube now is that they're actually comments. And like, there's no, there's no real way to engage to like post comments and engage with podcasts. Like as podcasts you can leave a review on the store. But that's it, you can do that once. Whereas I do I check the YouTube comments every couple of days, and I do quite like it. Search for us on YouTube. And leave a comment there. If you have like feedback about specific episodes and stuff. I think that'd be great.
Ali
Cool. All right. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Taimur
Goodbye.
Ali
That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter please.