Book Discussion - The Tyranny of Merit

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
18.Jan.2021

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and youtuber
Taimur
I'm say Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking
Taimur
the weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, and welcome to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing on this fine day?
Taimur
I should be doing great. I think it's been a pretty solid week. We've had a Yeah, lots happened this week, I finished an audio book, which is really good. And we're gonna be talking about that during the episode. I've got a sofa for my room that arrived this week.
Ali
Oh, how was it?
Taimur
I really like it. Yeah, I've I've noticed that. Yeah. Sometimes if I'm, you know, trying to get some work done. I just won't be in the mood on my desk. But when I relocate to the sofa or the bed, then suddenly like it's a change of energy. And I'm like, yeah, this is actually much better, where it's just like being on the desk, like, sometimes not in the mood for that. So like just moving across the room somehow works. out the server's good. wills will soon be filming the podcast on the sofa. So looking forward to that, I usually get some art for the wall above it. I've ordered. I've ordered a painting. Well, the prints of a painting by my my favorite painter, Edvard Munch, I think that's how you pronounce his name. So that'll be arriving. And I might get a couple more of those. Yeah. So first, sofas. Very nice. What else has happened this week? Yeah, the audio book. I think things at Causal are looking pretty good. We closed a nice, big customer this week. so that's nice.
Ali
Can you talk more about that?
Taimur
Sure. The company in London, they're about 100 people. Yeah, paying us $500 a month, which is, you know, not a huge amount. But I think like, it's a good price point for us. And more crucially, it feels more repeatable, because plenty of other companies have 100, roughly 100 people in size will have similar problems and stuff. And so, you know, if these guys are getting a lot of value out of it, and they seem to be, then we should be able to get more people like that. I think the the struggle so far is always kind of been finding the right markets. You know, like, there's kind of two there's like two aspects to building a successful product. There's like, does your product solve, you know, some problems? And does it solve those problems for the right people or eat a market? And, you know, we think our product solves a bunch of problems. I think so far, we've kind of struggled to get a foothold in a good market where lots of people care about these problems and are willing to pay to solve these problems. But I think this sort of customer profile could be really good. So, you know, companies that are 100 ish people doing a few million in revenue, where they have a finance person who cares about making their lives easier. And so yeah, hopefully this will be a turning point. Yep, feedback seems promising from the other similar companies we've been demoing to. So I think this could be the market for us. I think this could be it.
Ali
that's quite exciting.
Taimur
Yeah, it's really cool. How's your week been?
Ali
It's been pretty good. The downward my week has been the fact that I've had a Stye on top of my eye, which is like this assist that's somewhat infected. And so for the last three days, I've had, like, you know, this painful swelling above my right eye, that kind of keeps my eye half closed. And Sheen has been making me a cups of black tea that I dip a T shirt into, and then put on my eye, because apparently black tea has a antibacterial properties and be the warm water helps reduce the swelling somehow. I don't know. It's, it's like, yeah, it's
Taimur
It's like pinkeye.
Ali
Some sort of infection. So that's, that's been going on. And I was actually using your Causal branded t shirt yesterday to soak my eye with, and I was thinking about you at the time. So I hope you've..
Taimur
Got a great use of the Causal brand.
Ali
Causal we'll be out here saving lives
Taimur
well that's good to hear. Oh, yeah. Before we get into the actual episode, there were a couple of other things that came up this week. I think I made a note of one of them in my, in my second brain in womb. So there was one small thing, which I Oh, yeah, I think the main big thing was that this week in our company social, we decided to play some four player chess, have you ever played four player chess?
Ali
No, I have not. But is that the one where you capture a piece? And then it goes to the other person?
Taimur
No, no, no, that that's a different kind of foreclosures, that's called a Bughouse. But this is just like a four player chess variants on chess.com. where essentially, like, you know how it in a normal chessboard, like, opposite sides of the board have pieces on them, right. And this, like four sides of the chessboard have pieces on them. And each person like takes a side and you kind of play it in pairs. So you and the person opposite you are on a team, and then the other person and the person opposite them are on a team. And it's just like so much fun. It's like so it's so much better than the normal chest and I think the best part is being good at normal chess does not really help you at all like none of the none of the tactics or strategies, none of the like, things that you're used to doing are very helpful in the slightest. It really is about kind of coordination and kind of ganging up on one of the other team. With both of your teammates. Yeah, it's just like a ton of fun. So we are we've made that the company social. Any, I think, I think was big hits, I'd highly recommend.
Ali
So do you? Do you communicate with your partner throughout or what?
Taimur
Yeah, I mean, we did it on like a [UNCLEAR] And like, on the on chess.com, you can also sort of draw arrows on the screen that only your partner can see. So if you're like planning an attack, you can sort of secretly communicate that way. It's just a ton of fun. And like, you just you basically just need to know the rules of chess to kind of be okay at it. Like, you know, having played lots of chess doesn't actually help. So I think like, it's a nice sort of even playing field. And yeah, it's just like, it's just fun. I think, like doing anything as a team is like, automatically more fun than doing it. So that right, it's like that.
Ali
Okay, so there's four of you in the company?
Taimur
Well, there's three of us. Plus, our friend Mac, who's a friend and longtime supporter, Causal, and this podcast.
Ali
Okay, so do you have company socials once a week?
Taimur
That's right. Yeah.
Ali
Okay. Yeah, cuz we're on the verge of hiring a new writer and potentially bringing on another editor as well. And so I'm thinking, should we have company socials? like once a week.
Taimur
Yeah, dude, of course. Yeah. Cuz like you don't see each other in real life, right? Yeah, I imagine like for the other people, it's probably, I mean, if you imagine it from that point of view, that kind of sitting in a room all day working remotely, for this random guy across, you know, on the internet with other random people on the internet. I think that's definitely something lost to not having the kind of social interaction with colleagues and things.
Ali
Okay. So what was it like? Is it like, once a week on a Wednesday night, you had to log on to chess.com at 7pm time?
Taimur
Yeah, we have a recurring calendar event once a week on a Wednesday night. And yeah, we kind of decided do you want to play some chess or Tetris or some League Of Legends or whatever. And then we just just vibe man, we just straight vibe.
Ali
Okay. That's interesting. I might do that. Wednesday Night. People can order a takeaway on the company, if they would like and then just chat or play some chess or whatever.
Taimur
Yeah, I think playing look, I think the whole just chat thing. I don't know. Yeah.
Ali
The just chat thing will feel very artificial, I think.
Taimur
Yeah. It's like, okay, kids, let's have some fun. You know, whereas I think, you know, if you're playing chess or Tetris, or you're gonna be chatting as well, but it just sort of keeps, keeps half of your mind occupied, which is what you want really. Yeah. four play play chess, game changer.
Ali
All right. Anything else we need to preamble about before we get into the meat of the podcast?
Taimur
I think that's all good. Oh, yeah. Today, in a few hours time, we have our first night overthinking members Zoom call. So that'll be fun. We have a nice slack group going about 60 people at the moment, again, hoping to expand soon. But yeah, one of the big things everyone said was that would be cool to do Zoom calls or various formats. And in today's Zoom call, where yeah, I think one format, which is quite good is kind of carving out time for things that are important, but not urgent. And so in this, in this Zoom call, we're going to all be doing a weekly review of our weeks and kind of talking about that. And yeah, I guess as the productivity guru, Ali, you'll be guiding that session.
Ali
Oh, gosh, okay, sure. I can give it a go. I have tried weekly reviews many times over the last several years, I've done them, I've done them about eight times in total.
Taimur
So weekly review is like, the legit productivity system.
Ali
It really is like, it's like one of the most important things you can be doing. It's just that he's got time to do weekly review.
Taimur
Yeah, there's this like, this is really funny cartoon of, it's kind of like, oh, some caveman people who are pushing, who are pushing a wheelbarrow with square wheels. And then there's a guy with circular wheels behind them, like trying to offer them the circular wheels. And they're like, no man, we don't have time for that we're too busy. Like, obviously, the circular wheels will make them faster. And then there's this other phrase, which I really love, which is something along the lines of "You can waste yours. If you're not happy to waste a few hours or something," something to that effect, and you can waste a lot of time. If you're not willing to waste a little bit of time, like focusing on important things.
Ali
Yeah, there's the one that I like is a weeks of work saves hours of planning. I tweeted, I tweeted that and I was dismayed by the amount of replies being like, isn't it supposed to be the other way around? And then the amount of people replied to those people being like, that's the point, mate. And it was quite, it's quite wholesome.
Taimur
That's nice. I see you have a great community going on your twitter.com All right, cool. Enough chitchat. Let's get to it. So I recently finished a book called The Tyranny of Merit.
Ali
sounds fantastic. Fantastic.
Taimur
The tagline is "what's become of the common good?" All right, so I listened to this as an audiobook, and I made lots of on Audible there's a feature where you can save clips, I made lots of clips on Audible. We've never tried this before. But I'm going to kind of go through those, and then try and find the corresponding passages in the Kindle version.
Ali
just play the audible clips through your microphone.
Taimur
I can, but like, I haven't got much context on it. Like when you read a Kindle, when you look at a Kindle highlight, you can sort of glance at it and see what it's about whether audio highlights, you have no idea what it's about, like, he's just gonna play a clip, trying to remember the context and stuff like that. So I think like, that just definitely needs to be a better way of kind of making notes from audio content. I use a podcast app called Air Audio, which lets you'd like triple tap your professional Airpods. And then it makes a clip of the past 15 seconds. Audible has a feature that lets you take clips, but again, like you can't scan an audio clip. So hopefully, it'll be weird for the two of us because there'll be lots of silences where I'm like playing a clip and reading something. But we'll cut out those silences in post. And so hopefully, for the listeners, it should be a very free flowing, you know, one after the other kind of discussion. So let's see how it goes. So I think Yeah, the book is broadly kind of taking a look at this idea of meritocracy. I think meritocracy is sort of one of the big, invisible ideas that underpins, you know, it's sort of like an implicit assumption in yeah, all sorts of things in society. If you listen to how politicians talk about things, it's very much through this angle of meritocracy where, you know. If you work hard and do the right things, you can succeed. You know, that kind of stuff. And I think this has mainly kind of come about in the past 100 or so years. And the book kind of take a look at it kind of looks at the history of this idea of meritocracy. And also kind of takes us sort of a philosophical view of like, is this legit? Like, where does this fold? Where does this idea fall down?
Ali
I need to be there because my professional AirPods Max, are not playing any audio. And I'm not sure if it's a problem on my end or a problem on yours, but I'm going to take them off. Okay, can you hear me?
Taimur
Yep.
Ali
Okay, perfect. Someone really needs to invent a better way of taking notes from audiobooks, and also some bluetooth headphones that actually just work reliably. But sorry, you was saying, meritocracy.
Taimur
Yeah. So the book is broadly about, you know, this concept of meritocracy that kind of, is pervasive everywhere you look. And I thought, I think this idea of meritocracy is a really important one to look into, because it's just kind of assumed, you know, it's one of the sort of invisible narratives that sort of shape modern times, I suppose. And I never really, I mean, I sort of actually I sort of thought about this stuff. And I always found it a little bit problematic. And actually, I've always felt that praise is actually problematic. I don't think we've talked about that on the podcast. But I'm a strong believer in praise being problematic. And in the Dominican Republic, we had like a long discussion about this, which concluded and everyone calling me an idiot. I don't think I was very convincing about why phrasesare problematic. But I think this, at its core, this idea of meritocracy is why I think praise is problematic. But okay, so I think that a lot of the book is centered around higher education. So the concept of higher education, and this is the way politicians talk about it and stuff as well, is that it's a way for anyone, regardless of, you know, your lot in life to kind of get ahead, you know, even if you're born, you know, without any special advantages, by working hard, and you know, doing well on tests and going to a good college, that is like the route to a good life, that's a route to success and all of that kind of business. And a bunch of stuff has happened in the past few years. That kind of peels back the curtain a little bit in 2019 there was this big scandal around in the US around parents paying for their kids to basically cheats to get into good universities like Yale and Stanford and stuff like that. Do you remember the study?
Ali
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taimur
And so you know, parents can sort of I mean there's like a back there's there's a what's called like the back door and then what's called the side door I think the side door is what a lot of people try and do which is you know, pay a bunch of money for like tutoring to do really well on the standardized tests and you know pay a bunch of money for your kid to go off on like a traveling the world kind of summer so that they have something to write about in their personal essay or whatever. And then there's the backdoor which is like straight up cheating and so a lot of you who are found to be doing the sort of straight up cheating thing where that like someone will, you know, fake a bunch of stuff to pretend like your kid is on the lacrosse. You know, on the lacrosse team or something like that, you know, this this kind of stuff is completely insane. Yeah, that was his big scandal. And I think broadly like trust in higher education is on the decline, particularly as a result of the internet and things like that. And especially because of Coronavirus and everything going online, like I think like the amount of faith people have in universities and higher education is really, really dwindling. And historically, higher education has kind of been this, you know, this bastion of meritocracy, where it represents this idea that no matter who you are, you can kind of get ahead, you can succeed all this kind of business. And so a lot of the book is sort of, yeah, it takes a look as hard at higher education as an example of like, what might be a little bit wrong with this?
Ali
Yeah, this reminds me a lot of one of my favorite podcast episodes of all time, which you and I actually listened to when we were on our Scotland road trip called The Myth of Meritocracy which is on Ezra Klein's Podcast, where he talks to the Yale Law professor who like feels strongly that this whole meritocracy thing is a total myth. And it's just like, it's really, really eye opening, because it it, it goes counter to a lot of the intuitions that we just just hold without, without even questioning.And even any time I've tried to think about this, I have always run into.. Oh, my God, this, just like, where do you even begin? Like all of our, basically all of society is built around, to an extent this idea of meritocracy, this idea of kind of just deserts, that you get what you work for type vibes. And it's so problematic.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this book basically tries to expand on that a little bit. I think that's the starting point for all of this needs to be like, you know, what is the role of people in society? Like, what is this? What is this society business about? I think the author of this book thinks the society business is about, you know, human flourishing, and the common good. The common good being like, you know, we should encourage things in society that kind of benefit everyone. And that's kind of almost like the goal. And we, and we want to promote human flourishing. So you know, we want to have a society where everyone can flourish, I won't go too much into the details of like. I mean, I don't have a good definition for this, he doesn't actually present a good definition for this. But I think, I think whatever your definition of human flourishing is, it actually doesn't really matter to most of this guy's argument, but human flourishing, and the common good, are the things that we want to promote in society. And I guess the question is, like, does meritocracy actually do that? The other sort of recent, events, rather than that he talks a lot about our first Brexit and second, Trump being President of the United States. And he thinks that both of these things are a result are sort of like an inevitable result of these meritocratic ideals. Where, you know, if you look at the people who voted for Trump, and who voted for Brexit, you know, if they hadn't, if you hadn't gone to university or something like that, I can remember the exact stat that he gives, you know, there's like a 70% chance you'll, you'll like, vote for Trump or Brexit, or something. And if you had gone to university, it's like, significantly lower something. So like, this sort of university thing, you know, really seems to have split the country, the country being the UK, or the US, and I'm sure applies to other countries as well, to split the country into and, you know, there are these narratives about like, Oh, you know, these people who vote for Trump, they're just like, racist or whatever. They're these people who voted for Brexit, just like racist or whatever. And he kind of says that, yeah, sure them racism as a part of it. But if you, if you only look at it through the lens of racism, you kind of miss out this completely, sort of separate thing, which is that large swathes of the population don't no longer, are no longer given any social esteem. And so he talks about this idea of social esteem quite a lot, which is linked to the idea of like, everyone having some amount of dignity and social status and stuff like that. And basically, if you haven't gone to university, because of like all this meritocracy stuff, you know, that is just kind of assumed, you know, if you've gone to university, especially a good university, you know, in sort of prestigious careers and stuff. You're doing alright, you get social esteem, people think you're a productive member of society. If you haven't gone to university, you don't get any social esteem, and you're kind of just kind of feels bad, basically. Right. And so you have like a ton of people who sort of feel forgotten. And like, he also talks about how the elites are people who went to university, good universities and stuff like that. There's just like, so much casual shitting on people who didn't, you know, in the US, there's a term called The Flyover States, which are like all the states kind of in the middle. Yeah, I guess. Yeah I guess the the implication is that that just like kind of irrelevant that the states that you fly over to get to New York or San Francisco, whatever the relevant cities are, right? And yet the phrases like trailer trash and all of this kind of stuff. And like that there's just like so much shitting on people who didn't go basically to go to university. And that that's kind of the double edged sword of meritocracy, which he digs into, which is, yeah, it's it's great if you're doing well. But, you know, the, it's kind of implied that if you're not doing well, then that's kind of on you for not, you know, not having done the right things or whatever. And this is all very much linked to like, yeah, like sort of morality. You know, like, if you're, you know, partly this idea of meritocracy is that, like, if you do well, you kind of deserve it. And it's sort of like, morally justified. And so if you don't do well, by the traditional metrics, or whatever, that that is also morally justified, and, you know, okay, so that's like, a bunch of me rambling, let me let me get to some of these clips. So I think the first, the first couple of chapters are kind of about the history of this stuff. Like, where does this idea kind of come from of, you know, if you do the things you are, you're a good person kind of thing.
Ali
I'm going to grab a coffee while you're finding the relevant highlight.
Taimur
All right, so he starts off by basically saying, look, this idea of meritocracy, it's certainly not crazy, right? Like, there's nothing wrong with hiring people based on merit. It's generally like the right thing to do. If you need a plumber to fix your toilets, you try and find the best plumber for the job, right? Like you want someone well qualified, who can who can do a good job. And so like, it makes sense as an idea for sure. And more than that, it also, you know, it seems kind of fair, right? Like, rewarding people based on their merits, doesn't discriminate on any kind of arbitrary basis, it just discriminates on the basis of like achievement, like how good you are at this And so, you know, on the face of it, this idea of merits, it seems fair, it kind thing. of makes sense in a lot of contexts. And it also sort of, is also a nice idea, like, you know, this idea of getting what we deserve, it kind of promotes human agency, it kind of makes us feel like, oh, we're in control of things, all this kind of business. So for various reasons, like, it's not a crazy idea. And he thinks that this idea, basically traces back to the Bible. You know, this notion that our fate reflects our merit. It's sort of just deeply held in what he says, the moral intuitions of Western culture. And apparently, I'm sure some Christians would disagree with this. But I think biblical theology teaches us that natural events happen for a reason. You know, if the weather is nice, and the harvest is bountiful, then that's like God rewarding us for good behavior. You know, when when a ship encounters stormy seas, people ask who on the crew had angered Gods for that punishment or whatever. And yeah, he says, you know, this idea of kind of God are rewarding or punishing humans based on the things that they do, essentially, based on their moral goodness, this is kind of the roots of meritocracy.
Ali
Okay, that seems very reasonable so far, but I sense there's a big bucks coming?
Taimur
No, I think he's just kind of giving a bit of a historical context. So yeah, like, on the one hand, there are plenty of ideas and religion around like, God punishing you, if you do bad things, and God rewarding you if you do good things. And that's basically this idea of merit. Like, if you're good, you'll be rewarded, you know, kind of justly according to what you did. And if you're bad, you will be punished according to what you did as well. It's sort of meritocracy a nutshell, right? But then that kind of, like, raises the question of, yeah, it's like a maybe a weird view of God, where the idea of God is that God is sort of spending most of his time responding to, you know, the things that humans have done. Like, oh, this person did good, I will reward them, this person did bad I will punish them or whatever. And, you know, he's doing this based on people's merits, not like arbitrary punishment, or anything like that. But, I guess, then in religion, there's also this idea of sort of salvation, you know, who can be saved. How are people, how can sort of God save us from our, from the human condition or whatever. Like, can we sort of can you earn your way into heaven? Or is it is it like, completely up to God to decide, you know, basically, who gets in, regardless of how you live your lives. Like, you know, is it a matter of, Oh, I did, like 100, good deeds and 95 bad deeds in my life, therefore, I'm good, and I'm going to heaven, or is there something more arbitrary about it? And so yeah, there's this question around like, Can we earn salvation? Or does it kind of, you know, does it sort of come from somewhere else? And this idea of earning salvation is obviously, you know, very much in line with the meritocratic ideal of everyone getting what they deserve. And if you, you know, if you take the opposite view of like, salvation being an unearned gift, like, you know, I can, I can do my best and live a good life or whatever. But ultimately, it's not really in my hands, whether I will be saved or not. Then, you know, he kind of
Ali
Make the incentives very misaligned.
Taimur
Yeah, the incentives are maybe weird, yeah. And then there's, you know, there's a bunch of other stuff with that, right, like, you know, if salvation is the sort of unearned gift, and you know, kind of firm's God's omnipotence and all this business, it kind of makes God responsible for everything in the world. And so God is also responsible for evil and suffering, and all this kind of stuff. And that might be weird, because I don't maybe want to think that God is just in some sense of the word just and maybe that's weird. And so like, this idea, the idea of like, free will kind of shift some of the blame onto humans essentially, right?Like, well, you know, the humans are doing bad things Okay, I guess he's kind of presenting this, this sort of spectrum, where on the one hand, you have, on the one hand, you have like, you know, he has this idea of like, human agency, and being able to, you know, earn, earn your rewards and things like that. And then on the other hand, you have, you know, the idea of sort of general gratitude and grace and all of this kind of stuff. And like, you know, if you, if you're very much on the human agency, everyone gets what they deserves kind of thing. There's a lot less reason to feel gratitude in life, you know, because, well, I have this thing, because I deserve it. And they have that thing, because they deserve it. Like, what's that to be grateful for. And so, yeah, that is kind of like two different views of how you might, yeah, how you might see sort of religion, and a bunch of people have sort of land on different ends of the spectrum. And yeah, I think the idea of self help also comes into this where, in the sort of meritocratic view, there's a big focus around, essentially self help. Whereas in the other view, it's like, you know, you can try doing whatever you want. But ultimately, it's, it's sort of in the hands of God. And so, you know, folks like Martin Luther, in the Protestant Reformation was very much in the, it's in the hands of God thing. And he kind of felt that you can, you can no more pray your way into heaven than you could try and buy your way into heaven. And salvation doesn't come from being a self made man in any way. But this is kind of weird, because it was the Protestant Reformation that kind of brought about the current, yeah, it kind of kicked off the current way that we view work as work being like a good thing and all this kind of business.
Ali
What's the deal with the Protestant Reformation?
Taimur
I don't know too much about it. I think like some folks had some beef with the Catholic Church, and they thought, some of this knowledge it's, you know, this is like, this is not what the Bible teaches or something, yeah basically.
Ali
So, because there is that phrase, the Protestant work ethic, like..
Taimur
Yeah, yeah.
Ali
Kike, where does that come from? Does this guy go into that at all?
Taimur
Yeah, so I think we're going into too much detail here. But I'll just run off this religion stuff. So I think broadly, the the Protestants, when they came about their theology, sort of held that salvation was a matter of God's grace, not desert, not determined by human merits, or deservingness. It's not really about that. And like, who will be saved, and who will be damned is sort of predestined can't really affect it, apparently, for that. And so yeah, if you kind of believe that all of this stuff is predestined, then you know, big question in your life is, you know, am I one of the people who is destined to be saved? And am I one of the elect, you know, one of the people who, who will be saved? And like, yeah, to some extent, that's like the only question that matters in your life. But apparently, it's this question that sort of led to the, what is called the Protestant Work Ethic. He says that, "Since every person is called to work in a vocation, working intensely in that calling is a sign of salvation." How does that work? He hasn't really explained that. Just a sec. Yeah. I think what he's kind of saying is that the idea was that look, you can't really, you can't really like work your way into heaven. You can't pray your way into heaven or anything like that. That's all predestined. But work, you know, work as a way to glorify God regardless. And so, if you believe in this stuff, you want to glorify God, you know, for its own sake, whether or not you will get anything out of it. So the point of such work is not to enjoy the wealth that produces but to glorify God. And if you're working in order to like, lavishly then consume stuff, that's sort of a distraction from, you know, the glorifying God business and it's kind of corrupt or whatever. And so the Protestant Work Ethic was kind of about, you know, working hard, but not working hard but not really consuming too much. And that sort of leads to wealth accumulation.
Ali
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of useful as a sort of common good narrative, that the reason you're working isn't for the fruits of that labor, it's for the work itself. And if everyone had that view, then society would be great. So what does all this have to do with meritocracy? I think we spent about 35 minutes talking about history right now.
Taimur
Yeah, I think we probably spent too long on history. Let's just round it off. Yeah. So this is significant because of the tension between merit and grace. Like, I think the the idea of this sort of working business was, it wasn't that like, if I work more, then I will be more likely to get into heaven. But it was rather a way of knowing whether you are already among the elects like the people who, you know, work to glorify God. That's like a sign of salvation. You know, like, if I'm one of the people that's like, that like work works really hard to glorify God for its own sake, the that might be a sign that I'm good that I was already one of the elect.
Ali
Seems a bit suspect. It's seems like a semantic kind of..
Taimur
Yeah, look, it's as it's it seems, it seems a bit suspect. And it's a very small step away from, I'm working in order to get into heaven. It's like very easy to mix the two [UNCLEAR]
Ali
Yeah, that's what make suspicious about it.
Taimur
Yeah, and apparently that's basically what happened. Like, it's a weird and difficult idea that like, this is all predestined, I'm gonna work my ass off in life, to glorify God, but it'll actually have no impact on anything. Right? Like, it's a weird idea. It's hard to accept, like, God won't take any notice of all the faithful work I'm doing to glorify Him. And so I think, yeah, basically, it's a small step from this idea of like, Oh, we should work hard to glorify God, to we should work hard to get into heaven, kind of thing. And I think that's kind of where the work hard is good, and means you're good and all this business, I think that's where the idea kind of comes from. Alright, so that's, that's the history lesson. Give me a sec. So I think this guy, the author is a sort of college professor for the past few decades. And he says in the next chapter, which is called the Rhetoric of Rising, he says that one thing he's noticed over the past few decades, are that students are becoming basically more entrenched in this idea of meritocracy like they're becoming more convinced that you know, the things that they get, as a result of their hard work and that they deserve them. Whereas, like, a few decades ago, that narrative was less strong. I thought that was weird, because maybe I'm just talking about like, the past few years, but I feel like the narrative is almost starting to head in the other direction, where, you know, there's all these discussions about privilege and stuff like this, and how actually, you know, it's not really that meritocratic. And there's like, all sorts of factors outside of our control, and luck and things like that right? It feels like we're past peak meritocracy.
Ali
Yeah, that was my instinct as well. I'm not sure if it's just a function of the the sort of social bubble that we live in. And the sort of people that we follow on Twitter that has that impression, but it's certainly the impression I get as well. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners will agree, I think, especially in tech, especially in America, the whole you have to go to college to live a good life thing has really been debunked. At least that's the impression I get from Twitter. [UNCLEAR]
Taimur
Twitter, yeah.
Ali
Entire population, so. That seems to be a lot more emphasis on things like actually acknowledging that the education system sucks that it's mostly a way of, you know, outsourcing childcare to the government, therefore, we should be homeschooling, and therefore we should be having these homeschool pods of between four to eight people. And we can bring in specialists to teach them the bad things that they want to learn about. Because the you know, the whole national curriculum thing is also a myth, because it was all about creating factory workers. And now we no longer need to create factory workers. All of this stuff seems to be moving away from fake meritocracy. Again, if Twitter has anything to go by.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. Okay and so, in this chapter, he basically talks about how a lot of our political rhetoric is around, you know, around meritocracy. It basically started with Ronald Reagan when he was president. He was sort of the first person to sort of make this meritocratic idea, a core part of, of like, his rhetoric basically, talking about how all Americans have the right to be judged on the sole basis of individual merits. And, you know, to go just as far as their dreams and hard work will take them. And he used this as an argument to sort of lower taxes because if you lower taxes, then this sort of like reduces the barriers for people to succeed. Because you know, you've worked really hard you can become really successful and there's no taxes holding you back kind of thing. And yeah, like, Bill Clinton also used it as well. It's this whole idea of the American dream, that if you work hard and play by the rules, you know, you'll be given a chance to go as far as your God given ability will take you George Bush, John Mccain, Marco Rubio all kind of had the same angle. But apparently with Obama, it was like way more strong than any of the previous presidents. And it was like the central theme of his presidency. Yeah, Obama, like, constantly talked about how, you know, higher education is about making sure that brights, most of his young people have the chance to go as far as their talents and their work ethic and their dreams can take them. And he sort of viewed a college education as the primary vehicle of upward mobility, basically, He says, "now, as a nation, we don't promise equal outcomes. But we were founded on the idea that everybody has an equal opportunity to succeed."
Ali
That's actually pretty good. A pretty good message.
Taimur
"No matter who you are, what you look like, where you come from, you can make it"
Ali
I love how you crack, cracking yourself up.
Taimur
"Where you start should not determine where you end up. And so I'm glad everybody wants to go to college." Yeah, he's basically like big on, big on that thing. He talks about how his wife, Michelle, you know, they weren't especially privileged, but higher education was kind of their roots into, you know, success and all this kind of business. So Obama was really big on this Rhetoric of Rising. And then this idea, this kind of Rhetoric of Rising and this focus on higher education stuff kind of became the big divide between, I guess the Republicans and the Democrats in the US. And so like, when it was Hillary running against Trump, Hillary's campaign was, you know, very much like classic Rhetoric of Rising type stuff. You know, this stuff, similar stuff to what Obama was saying. But Trump's campaign wasn't actually about that, at all. It wasn't about like upward mobility, or believing that anyone can like rise with hard work and stuff like that. It seems like Trump actually never used any such slogan during his campaign, or during his presidency. He said things, he said like really blunt things about winners and losers and making America great again. But his yeah, the vision that if he has a vision, it's certainly doesn't seem to be anything around meritocracy, like definitely nowhere near as focused on meritocracy as say, Obama or Hillary would have been. He then basically talks about how, you know, the the populist antipathy towards meritocratic elites played a big part in Trump's election, big part in the Brexit vote, where essentially, you know, lots and lots of sort of working class people resent meritocratic elites, and, you know, the professional classes, who reap all the benefits of globalization. Whereas, you know, if you didn't do so well, in the meritocratic world, then you, you sort of a little bit screwed by all of it. And it's easy to kind of, you know, jump to Xenophobia, or racism and stuff like that. And yeah, that was definitely a part of it. But he says that a big part of it was the sense that those who were at the bottom of the hierarchy of merit were kind of looked down upon with disdain by the other people. And, you know, this is, this is definitely true. I think. So like the Yeah, this rhetoric of rising it's it, you know, for, for folks who have a good shot at it. It can seem very, like optimistic and promising of like, oh, yeah, I can do stuff and work hard. But for those kind of at the bottom, who are sort of struggling to stay afloat. This rRhetoric of Rising is not like a good promise. It's more of like a taunt of like, haha, screw you, you know, you kind of deserve this.
Ali
So to summarize what we've discussed so far, we've said, the meritocracy, this idea of meritocracy, i.e. you get what you deserve. And if you work hard, then you will be salvated, salvated, say, you'll achieve achieve salvation. This sort of extends way back to the Bible. Then a couple of 100 years, several, several 100 years ago, a Protestant Reformation happened that tried to sort of say that it's not really about that, guys. But that's kind of a hard idea to get your head around. And now we are all, society is massively entrenched in this idea of the meritocracy. This idea that if you work hard, then you will succeed. And if you don't succeed, it's because you didn't work hard enough. And obviously, this is somewhat problematic, because there are, you know, large amounts of factors on either side of the equation. And this idea of the Rhetoric of Rising, that again, if you work hard, you will succeed. And the only thing that's stopping you from succeeding is through your lack of hard work. That is one of the stark divides between, for example, Republicans and Democrats or people who vote for Trump versus people who don't or people who vote for Brexit versus people who don't. And it's too easy and intellectually dishonest to say that if you vote for Trump, you are a racist. And if you voted Brexit You are a racist. Like it's so much more complicated than that. And meritocracy, this rhetoric of rising is one factor. For the record, it's not the only factor. We're saying it is one, one factor.
Taimur
Yeah and look, you know, this, if we then take a step back, and I guess America is definitely one of the most sort of entrenched in this idea of meritocracy. And, you know, by comparison, most of Europe is a bit a lot more sort of socialist. If you look at the actual facts of like, okay, America is super into this idea, does it actually lead to more upward mobility, and does actually lead to more people getting out of poverty and becoming, you know, more affluent and things like that. But if you look at the actual numbers, America fares much worse than, you know, almost every other country, I think. Yes, there's, you know, there's a bunch of numbers that are interesting to go into. But yeah, essentially, there's much less economic mobility in the United States than many other countries. You know, most of Europe, for example, even Canada. And apparently there was a New York Times article recently, that basically posed the following scenario, they said, "imagine you have to make a bet. There are 218 year olds, one in China, the other in the United States, both poor and short on prospects, you have to pick the one with a better chance of upward mobility, which would you choose?" And not long ago, the answer would have probably been simple. You know, America, obviously, the American dream, like promises that this poor kid can like work their way up to success. But the answer today is very much. You know, China, like China has risen so quickly that your chances of improving your station in life there are vastly exceed those in the United States. And so, you know, if it were the case that okay, this meritocracy thing, it might have its problems, but actually does work and like for like tons of people, this meritocratic ideal does actually lead to them having a better lives and things. Yeah, if that were the case, then it's like, okay, you might put your hands up and think, alright, yeah, it's not ideal, but it actually does work. And so maybe we should keep it. But it doesn't seem like it's actually working. And so this is a real problem. So the next chapter is on.
Ali
I guess, in sort of classically meritocratic societies, it is the people at the top who benefit most from the meritocracy. And the rhetoric might be that actually, this, actually guys this merging meritocracy thing is good, because the people at the bottom can also benefit from it just as much as the people at the top but that is not what happens and the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. The divide widens, thanks to meritocracy, rather than shrinking, which is sort of what the democrat agenda would have you believe that meritocracy is a proven good. Is that sort of what this guy saying.
Taimur
I don't think he'd used the term Democratic Agenda. (laughs)
Ali
By Democratic Agenda, I mean, Obama and Hillary with which you said that was a big part of their campaign relative to their Republican counterpart.
Taimur
Yeah, I think the next chapter is pretty interesting. It's about Credentialism, which the author describes as "the last acceptable prejudice." And it's about how like, yeah, if you look at what, again, the stuff politician says, is interesting, because it kind of represents the stuff that people would find convincing. And it kind of represents the narrow the narratives that society sort of subscribes to, if you look at the kind of stuff that politicians talk about, it's becoming increasingly around being smart. You know, like, you know, previously, it might have been around, this is the right thing to do, or whatever. Now, it's about this is the smart thing to do. And if you want to convince people to know that something should be done. You try and convince them by saying that it's the smart thing to do. And this concept of smartness, intelligence or whatever, again, very much linked to the sort of the worship of credentials and higher education and all this kind of business. So I think Trump didn't have a great academic record. And the various points he tried to like make it seem like Obama didn't have a good academic record as well. So he insisted that Obama make his academic records public. And he's like, "I heard he was, he was a terrible student." (laughs) You know, how does a bad student go to Columbia and then Harvard, let him show his academic records. And obviously, Trump didn't want to show his own academic records. College credentials have kind of been sort of weaponized a little bit, yeah, just like this thing about like, are you smart or not? The smartness is now like one of the battlefields and obviously, like, every, you know, Trump is seen by lots of people to not be very smart. And so he you know, he has many times tried to sort of, yeah, like people call him like a moron and stuff like that publicly like with other public figures. And so he sort of has to try and insist that he's a smart person, a very stable genius. And, you know, he said things, he had to say things like, I was speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good grade. I have a lot, I've said a lot of things. My primary consultant is myself. He's, often assertive he has a high IQ. And his critics have low IQs. You know, he's talked about how his uncle had been a professor at MIT, who he described as an academic genius, and that's evidence that Trump has good genes, very good genes. You know, after he appointed his first cabinet, he said, you know, we have by far the highest IQ of any cabinet ever assembled. He was giving like a speech to the CIA shortly after his inauguration, in which he said, trust me, I'm like, a smart person. Like, this thing about being smart is now like, the main thing that people kind of care about. Whereas historically, it might have been around like, you know, being virtuous being right, or something like that. It's now shifted towards, towards being smart.
Ali
I'm often very uneasy by this idea of smart like, anytime I see someone on Twitter saying, "Oh, my God, Twitter's amazing, because you get to meet so many smart people" or "I want to connect with smart people." That kinds of word feels very uneasy.
Taimur
Yeah, smart is now this sort of the North Star for what you want to be kind of.
Ali
Just do morally good or virtuous or white, for example, it's now "Hey, I want to be friends with you because you're smart."
Taimur
Right, and yeah, like education has kind of been put, had been sort of put forward by lots of people as the the solution to inequality, you know, Bill Clinton, sort of, wait just a second, we got the Kindle open on my iPad, my professional iPad, just run out of battery. Yeah, I think this is ended up being a long and rambly episode. And that you really need written highlights, it doesn't make sense of a book.
Ali
You know, this whole note taking thing, there's got to be an efficient way of solving it. An idea that I had was that the exploiting the audible highlights, transcribing them using Author or Descript or something, and then cross referencing them with like, the Kindle edition, but it's just, it's just so much effort. And there's just nothing quite like being able to highlight something on Kindle and then glanced through it. It's actually basically all of the books that I've read on, I've listened to an Audible and thought this is a really good book I have then reread it on Kindle while highlighting it. And obviously kind of doing it more like a cursorily but it's just been so helpful.
Taimur
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I think place where we left off, was that a lot of the political rhetoric has kind of been around education being the answer to inequality. Bill Clinton had a nice phrase, he'd always say, which was, "what you can earn depends on what you can learn." And, you know, in an era of globalization and stuff like that, you know, you need to be able to essentially compete in the global market, and what you can earn depends on what you learn. Obama also kind of said very similar things. You know, he said, you know, back in the day, if you were willing to work hard, you didn't necessarily need a great education. If you're just going to high school, you might get a job that sort of allows you to own your wages and, you know, live an okay life, but those days are over and those days are not coming back. He said, we live in a 21st century global economy. And in this economy, jobs can go anywhere, and companies are looking for the best educated people wherever they live. And so this idea of like, credentialism, higher education being like the most important thing. The author says that the credential is prejudice is a symptom of meritocratic hubris. And, yeah, elites basically fell into the habit of looking down on people who didn't rise, and the the constant call for working people to improve their condition by getting a college degree. However, well intentioned, eventually valorizes credentialism, and undermine social recognition and esteem for those who lack the credentials and that the system rewards. Yeah, I think it really all comes down to this idea of social esteem. And I think this is, this is basically why I've long felt that praise is problematic. Okay, I think we should do a part two on the book discussion next week after I've, you know, gone through things that are a bit more of a structured way. But let's just talk about this praise thing. Like the reason. The reason I've long thought that praise is problematic is that you know, what does it mean? When you praise someone so for, do you do praise people a lot, Ali?
Ali
No, I don't. I often feel a bit uneasy about it. And it's sort of related to I think, I think it's a similar sense of unease when people say, what were you most proud of? proud of last year or? Oh, you must be really proud of what you've done. I just like it just, yes. Something about it feels like very wrong, and I've never quite been able to, the only thing on my head why I don't feel proud of the things that I've done is because of the you know, privileged, deck stacked in my favor, I was dealt a good hand and I didn't squander that hand and I just sort of played it reasonably, I think.
Taimur
We don't need any of this virtue signaling.
Ali
It feels like it feels like there's nothing to be proud of there, and I think to an extent, with the praising of others, I am like, like, for example, if Sheen would get a job, I'll be like, "Oh, my God, you know, that's fantastic. Congratulations." well, actually. And so I think I think there's something there with this unease around pride and praise. I've never been quite able to explain it. But also, you know, to quote [UNCLEAR], I've never actually thought about it for five minutes at a time.
Taimur
Okay, right. So like, when, you know, for example, you know, if your friend gets a new job, would you like say, oh, congratulations, well done, you know, something like that.
Ali
I will take congratulations. I won't say well done, just because it feels a bit more like a bit patronizing to say well done.
Taimur
Do you have a sense for what you what you mean, when you say congratulations? Or is it it purely just like a social etiquette thing? Where it would be weird if you didn't say congratulations? Like, what could that possibly mean?
Ali
Okay, so yeah, there is a an aspect of social etiquette..
Taimur
Ignoring the social etiquette, what else could it mean?
Ali
What I might be saying is that this thing was, was competitive, and you competed well to get the thing, so well done for that.
Taimur
If someone has a baby, I mean, you say congratulations, it's not particularly competitive, I mean..
Ali
I don't know about that (laughter) been trying for many years. (laughter)
Taimur
You get what I'm saying, right? Like, you also congratulate people for stuff that isn't related to beating other people to competition.
Ali
Something nice has happened in your life. Congratulations. You know, Happy anniversary, congratulations. Somewhat competitive, depending on who you ask. what do we say congratulations, you got into university, congratulations. That's a case of beating other people. You ran a marathon in a certain amount of time whether or not you're competing with other people. Congratulations. So you did something that was hard and that deserves praise.
Taimur
Deserves praise. Okay, actually, maybe this is an interesting angle. I mean, presumably that I think that was some years at university for you where you got a first or like, did well, in your exams versus other years, right? Now, in the years where you did well, on your exams, did friends, like praised you? Like they say, Oh, well done. Congratulations, kind of thing. Yeah, like when you're getting your results? How did that make you feel?
Ali
Kind of good. Not gonna lie.
Taimur
Why is that? Like, what's going on there?
Ali
What's Okay, what's going on there? Is that, okay, all right I've got it. It's that it was hard. And therefore, when people acknowledge the hardness of the work, then the praise feels sweeter. Whereas, for example, congratulations on getting a million subscribers, did not make me feel anything at all. Whereas congratulations for getting a first did. I think because on the million subscriber thing, it's like, you kind of know it's happening. And you know that, whereas on the first thing is like, it actually could go either way. And you've studied really hard on this thing and it's an unknown until results day. Oh, my God. Yes. So that is like a, you know, a sense of relief of like, you know, this works. And I think the more, the longer that journey, the longer or harder that journey is, the more the praise feels good.
Taimur
Why does the praise from other people feel like you know, I can understand why you'd feel good in yourself. Like, you know, you worked hard for something. There's this like, catharsis of like, you know, this sort of emotional release of like, a build up and then a conclusion. Fine. That's great. Good stuff. What's going on when someone else acknowledges that like, what, why does that feel good?
Ali
Okay, I'm trying to think back because it was a long time ago that I actually did well on an exam.
Taimur
[UNCLEAR] Made videos about doing was [UNCLEAR]
Ali
I think 2015 was the last time I actually did well in an exam. And yeah, yeah, the personal feeling of achievement was far greater than the sort of acknowledgement from friends. The acknowledgment friends did feel a bit like, yeah, maybe I think when I said it felt good. I was conflating it with the sort of feeling of personal achievement rather than the fact that other people were saying it to me. So when my friend said congratulations for getting first. It was more like a social etiquette thing we're like, Oh, thank you. You know, I wouldn't have actually kind of felt anything. When my senior tutor said, congratulations for getting a first I was like, Oh, yeah.
Taimur
Why is that?
Ali
Oh, because obviously I was seeking his approval in general. And he's sort of a figure of authority. And I was like, Oh, you know, this is nice. And, you know, now he thinks higher of me.
Taimur
Okay, this idea of someone sort of thinking higher of you, this idea of like, you know, someone's estimation of you increasing as a result of a thing.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
I think I think that that kind of hits at why I find praise problematic, because if I'm praising someone, okay fine, there's a social ethic aspect of it as well. But if there is any, any part of it, that isn't just a social etiquette thing, it feels like the implication is kind of ah I now think, you know, my estimation of view has now increased, you know, that's kind of what I'm saying. I don't like that idea.
Ali
We all really true. We all do that anyway, right? Like, also, can you put your phone in silent.
Taimur
Sorry, I get lots of messages.
Ali
You're very popular. My estimation of you just increased. I got an email from a guy or I got in touch with this guy who is a professional magician. And he wanted to be like my magic mentor in return for me being his YouTube mentor. And I sort of come across the name before. And then I found out that like, Damn, this guy has won The Magic Circle Close-up Magician of the year, three years, and for three years in a row like that is a huge deal. Like, that's like a big, big deal. And obviously, that meant my estimation have increased and I was far more likely to be like, Okay, let me take this guy, to take this guy seriously. Hell, yes, I want him to be my magic mentor, and I will mentor him in whatever YouTubing he wants to get mentorship from that sort of person. Whereas if it had been a case of I googled his name, and I find that he's, you know, has not got any of these credentials. Like, you know, in, in that sense, it's like, you know, but that's like [UNCLEAR] like the plumber action.
Taimur
Yeah. It's like hiring a plumber. Yeah. (laughter)
Ali
But, as in like, my point is my my estimation of him increased. And we kind of all do that anyway.
Taimur
Right, your estimation of him as a magician increased?
Ali
Yes. But also my respect for him as a human probably increased as well. I've got to be honest, man.
Taimur
I appreciate the honesty, the honesty,
Ali
If you don't know someone, you know, then credentials, like in particular credentials that you know, are sort of like mean something, is a reasonable way of is a reasonable proxy for you know, how seriously, should I take this person. It's not ideal.
Taimur
I agree. I can get on board with that in when it's domain specific. Like if if someone's, you know, really good magician, and I'm having a children's party. I'm kidding. I respect magic as a craft. I
Ali
I am a huge fan of magic.
Taimur
It's not tricks, their illusions, Michael. That's a reference.
Ali
I've used that reference a few times in the last couple of weeks. And like only one person that ever got it.
Taimur
Really?
Ali
I think it was Molly. Molly, I think was watch Arrested Development. Okay. I think she got it. Yeah. But anyway, you're saying? Children's party?
Taimur
Yeah, look, I think it's fine. If someone's a good magician for you to think they're a good magician. Right. But for example, I think I've mentioned this before on the podcast. But one of the things I really wasn't a fan of at university, was that, yeah, it's sort of this idea of human top Trumps, which again, we've mentioned, we've mentioned before, as well of, you know, when I think yeah, it was a classic thing at university when someone would introduce someone else, they'd kind of, sort of list off their achievements slash accolades. To try and justify why. [UNCLEAR] Yeah, why they were friends or why this person is like, worthy or something. And we all, someone so is my friend who is like captain of the football team. And you know, who came top on the year and his exam, whatever. Like, they were just like, such a common refrain for people to talk in that way. And I'm, yeah, I think the plumber thing is domain specific. Like, if I'm hiring a plumber, I want a good plumber, if I want a magic mentor, then I want them to be good. But I think and this is where the meritocracy stuff comes in as well. I think it's a very, it's a very small step from that to like, Ah, this person has this credential. Therefore, they are a better person, therefore, they are worthy of more respect and more social esteem and all this kind of stuff. It's like a very small step. And this is the issue with meritocracy, is that we don't seem to be able to separate the two things anymore. You know, It's like the higher education thing. Like that's now. Yeah, like you kind of get more you, you sort of you get more respect as a human being because of this, like, random thing. And that's the issue, right. And that's not good. And I feel like praise kind of, you know, if someone, okay, again, outside of social etiquette, if someone is like praising you for something I'm not sure they could possibly mean, apart from my estimation of you is now increased.
Ali
I mean, they could be praising you in a domain specific fashion, like, congratulations for winning best plumber of the year.
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
They could be praising you in a domain specific fashion like, congratulations, you won best plumber of the year or best realtor 2019 or whatever.
Taimur
Yeah, but what does the praise mean? Like, I really don't understand what it means. And look, I think it's worth saying that with a lot of like, language and communication and stuff like that, you know, what does Hello mean? Right? Like, a lot of this stuff, you know, is not stuff that you can easily articulate, like, what does it mean? And, you know, to an extent, you know, praising someone, you know, if for example, if your friend just opened their exam results, and they did well, or I guess, yeah, I guess if they did well, then you might kind of, you know, saying congratulations, it sort of lets you sort of elongate that moment with them and kind of let them, lets them sort of, I don't know.
Ali
Let them bask in the glory a bit longer.
Taimur
Bask in the glory a bit longer. I mean, so once, so when we were talking about this stuff in the Dominican Republic, one thing which we arrived at was that some things a group activities, or sorry, I think group projects was, something that group projects. And in a group project, it's justifiable to praise someone, for example, if someone like cooks you dinner or something, you know, they're cooking you dinner for you, like, they want you to enjoy the dinner, right? Like, it's your estimation of the dinner is kind of important. And so for you to then see for you to praise the cooking, and praise the meal is different. And like, yeah, if you work in a company or whatever, and an employee is doing a good job or something, praising them for that is like, it's this group projects, like you're all there to kind of get better, you're all there to, you know, to do better together, right? And so in the context of group projects, I think praise is justifiable. But something like an exam results.
Ali
Is having a baby a group project?
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
Is having a baby a group project?
Taimur
Depends what you're into. (laughs) But like, yeah, do you get what I mean?
Ali
Yes, I mean, my initial thought was that company employee example is not so different from students together in the same college studying a subject and in this experience together. And so therefore, when one member of the group does well, it's like, oh, congratulations, like this is awesome. Or if, for example, the senior tutor what to praise you that's like the boss praising the employee, in a way for doing a good job on the test that everyone is measured against.
Taimur
I don't know like the exam thing seems a lot less group projecty. Yeah, sure you all kind of do your own different exams, in the same geographical space or whatever, in the same community. But, like, what, yeah, so I think it's justifiable. If what you mean by congratulations is, I'm happy that you're happy. And we've talked about this relating to pride, I think it's fine to tell someone that you're happy that they're happy.
Ali
Yeah, I feel like that is usually what we what we what we mean by congratulations. It's, I'm happy that you're happy. And I know that this was hard for you and there and you did it. Like, no one's gonna be congratulate this oh, hang on, this might be partly why, you know, congratulations for just taking part is often like, thrown under the bus as being like, you know, a thing that we shouldn't do. And hey, you know, they're awarding participation certificates now, kind of vibe, that just because you showed up, that is an act worthy of praise. That phenomenon, and the backlash against that phenomenon, I think relates to this meritocracy thing that you should, you're only deserving of praise if you win something in the competition, as opposed to if you just show up. But I think these are two separate things, I think, sort of congratulating someone, there's so much entangled up, entangled in that, and it's not itself problematic, the thing that's problematic is potentially problematic is if you're, if your estimation of that person as a human being increases. with their achievements. And it sort of does for a lot of us. Like I don't know anyone for whom that that's not the case. And I agree, like the whole if you were, if you were in I don't know, spiritual Nirvana or whatever, and you would treat every human being as equal, etc, etc, then you wouldn't be doing that. But it feels like kind of an ideal to aspire to rather than a yeah, that's kind of like the stoic sages that isn't ideal to aspire to where nothing affects your tranquility and you're just sort of serene and Zen and living through the world in Sage mode. Whereas in reality, you know, you can have that as like, okay, in an ideal world. I wouldn't think any to higher of this person because they went to Harvard, but in reality, I do kind of think slightly higher of them. Once I found out that they went to Harvard.
Taimur
I don't know, I think like, it's obviously an ideal to aspire to. But I think like, it's a lot. It's a lot more. Yeah, it's a lot closer than achieving Nirvana of being in the state of like, spiritual is that all the time. Like, I don't think it's actually that. I don't think it's that unachievable. I think like, yeah, I like I really don't think it's that unachievable. I think it's, it's, it takes something like, first just like thinking about the issue, and then kind of noticing when you do it. And yeah, like, for example, I've, you know, again, this is not me trying to virtue signal that I'm not trying to, like, blow my own trumpet here. But I think over the past few years, I've like, made a very deliberate effort to try and get this mindset out of me. I think, like, honestly, I don't think I redo it anymore. And I don't think it's that hard to, like, undo it.
Ali
I'm suspicious.
Taimur
Really?
Ali
Yeah, I think you're BS-ing yourself here. I think, Okay, I think probably, probably the way you you are thinking of it is if you're having a chat with someone related to Causal, or if you're talking at a party with a friend, you wouldn't really care how much money they've raised for their startup, or what university they went to, etc, etc. Because you're like, you know, I've made it a thing not to care about that. But if, for example, you were sitting on train, and someone who looked, who looked homeless came and sat next to you, you'd be a lot less likely to talk to them, then for example, if you were sitting on the train, and someone that you felt was either more attractive. Or was wearing something to signal that they, for example, went to Oxford, or you know, something like that would make you more likely to talk to that person. And you might say, Oh, well, it's, you know, we're likely to have more commonalities. But I think the underlying incentive, the underlying intention there is that you do see these people as being different on the surface, and therefore you're more likely to give one your time and not the other. Like, if you give money to a homeless man on the street, you're not going to sit down and have a chat with him, which is sort of what you would do if this was if you were actually in this mode of not, you know, credentialing people, I think, do correct me if I'm wrong.
Taimur
I don't know. I don't think that's that convincing, like, sitting on the sitting on the train thing. I feel like whether you strike up a conversation with someone in like a public space, it depends completely just on like, on like, the context, for example, like the last time I had, you know, a few months ago, I was on a train, I just gotten like my, like scuba diving certificate or something. And I was like, talking to a friend about that with me on the train. And and then turned out the lady opposite us was just like, you know, has been doing scuba diving for a few decades or something. And like, she overheard the conversation, and we had a discussion about that. Like, I don't think there was any greater respect that I gave her or that she gave me, it was simply a fact of like, oh, there's this thing that we have in common that we can talk about, like, I think those kinds of interactions, you know, really are that simple, you know, like, and then the homeless person thing. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I, you know, I'd have as much of a chat with the homeless person, as I would with any other random stranger who I might have interacted with. Which is like, Oh, hey, you know, have a good evening, Oh, how's your evening going? You know, kind of thing. Like, just, I don't know, I think what you're saying is true that like, yes, you are more likely to strike up conversation with someone who obviously has, you know, something in common with me that we can talk about. But I don't think that's what the respect stuff really gets up.
Ali
Okay, let me rephrase this, so..
Taimur
Okay, look, you might you might be right, that I'm just, I'm just bullshitting myself. But, yeah, go on.
Ali
Let's say..
Taimur
Let me tell you, actually, let me tell you why I feel like it's not that difficult. I feel like it's not that difficult. Because if you actually look at, you know, the data points in your life of, you know, people who you get on with, and you know, who you're friends with, and stuff like that, I think it's completely uncorrelated with credentials. And so, it also just doesn't really make sense.
Ali
I mean, I wouldn't say it's completely uncorrelated with credentials, like, you probably aren't friends with people who didn't go to university.
Taimur
That's true. But like..
Ali
So it's not completely uncorrelated with credentials, maybe, maybe it's uncorrelated with whether they go to first at university or not. But there's certainly a case of you are not friends with anyone who didn't go to university.
Taimur
Anyone, really?
Ali
Until you can kid yourself or you like that. Yeah, sure. You're because you've reached Nirvana of not caring what class of degree someone got. But your social circle does not reflect this theoretical attitude of, "Hey, man, I don't care about credentials."
Taimur
Dude, my social circle is a function of the people who I have met in my life and obviously You know, a lot of those people will have gone to the same university as me, for example, and be like friends of friends who also went to, you know, went to university and stuff like that. But again, it doesn't get at this idea of like giving someone more respect for more social esteem. I don't think it gets to like that dude.
Ali
Okay, so let me see if I can think of an example from my life for this. So, for example, so okay, so if we, if we get back to the starting point, our starting point is that, in an ideal world, we wouldn't be giving anyone more social esteem if they hold a particular accolade, or achievement or credential.
Taimur
Yep.
Ali
Okay. So in my, in, in my, it's like, let's say someone DMs me on Instagram. And let's say that person has zero posts, their username has some numbers in it. And they have like, they follow like, for 400 people, and they DM me asking a question about x, or whatever. Let's say someone else DMs me, who has 100,000 followers on Instagram, who's got a blue tick, who, you know, post on Instagram, and asks the same question. I am far more likely to reply to one than to the other.
Taimur
The person with no followers, right? Of course, yeah.
Ali
Yeah. Because I believe in, you know, I'm a socialist at heart. And so, I don't think that is a quote, "bad thing." And, like, okay, in the, in the absence of knowing anything else about the person, the fact that someone has 100,000 Instagram followers automatically increases my sort of social esteem of them, if we can use that word social esteem, and I am more likely to reply to them, because I think okay, you know, this person is in the arena, as it were.
Taimur
What do you mean by "in the arena" just, like more likely to be cool? Or more likely to benefit you in some way?
Ali
Yeah, more likely to be cool and more likely to benefit me in some way and we're more likely to get on and I can probably get something from them. And, you know, I feel like, I don't know, if this is just the case for me, I feel it's a case for almost everyone, in a lot of the friendships that we have, it is a case of okay, you know, the selfish part of me, the elephant in the brain wants to be friends with this person, because I feel like being friends with this person will be useful for me further down the line, as opposed to just because, you know, we get on and stuff and yeah, sure we get on stuff is obviously a requirement to be friends with someone. But if we get on and stuff, and also, they have these credentials, which I think might be useful to be a collaborator further down the line, as opposed to we get on and stuff and they live across the other side of the world. And they're like, I don't know, have no credentials that I can actively make use of, I'm far more likely to be friends with the person whose credentials I can make use of. And in a way, that probably means I hold that person in higher social esteem than someone who doesn't set credentials. And I think we all do this. And maybe it's not ideal, but I don't think there's really a getting around it given that. Given that we, that yeah, there's no way of getting around it, given that we don't have other information about these people. And we therefore need to make snap judgments about people to decide where we should be investing our time and energy.
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's reasonable. And yeah, I think I definitely do that too. Like, yeah, I think everyone does that. Like, you know, if you get a cold email or a DM from someone, or who you know, someone who you like have heard of before or someone with a bunch of mutual's or, yeah, someone who looks to be, you know, doing similar things. And so you might be able to collaborate in some way. I think, I think that's fine. I again, I don't think that I think it's possible to do that, and not hold the other person in higher social esteem. But I think I might be a danger here of just like reducing the definition of social esteem basically, down to nothing.
Ali
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's a problem here. Because, you know, the elephant in the brain, part of me wants to is very tempted to say that this is what social esteem means, to think that I'm more likely to get on with this person and to think this, but I'm more likely to get something from this person to think I'm more likely to benefit this person in some or possibly not. To mean that we're, we're more likely going to be able to connect on a more even playing field than for example, you know, again, in the absence of any other information, someone who has no Instagram followers and does not post on the internet, relative to someone with 100,000 of them who post regularly on the internet. Like, isn't that what social esteem is? For some of us?
Taimur
Yeah, I think a lot of what's being talked about here is like, you know, having a preference for people who, you know, you have stuff in common with, right? Like that's, it's, it seems like that's, that's a lot of what's going on. And that seems fine to me. Like, it's, it seems like the thing about you replying to the person with 100,000 Instagram followers, is more about you know, choosing to take a shot on people who you have more in common with, right?
Ali
Yes. which Some might say is what social esteem is. Okay, so if we take the I have something in common with them. Let's say we have someone who plays World of Warcraft for 18 hours a day and is you know, you know, still effectively a noob versus someone who plays World of Warcraft 18 hours a day and is ranked one in the UK I would be tempted to give one of those people more social esteem than the other.
Taimur
How would that manifest itself?
Ali
It would manifest itself in that if I found out that someone's hobby was playing World of Warcraft, 18 hours a day, I'd be interested to see what their quote like, what their credentials are from.
Taimur
How good they are. You want to size them up.
Ali
I want to size them up. Yeah, I want to right click them. I want to click inspect. I want to I want to see if they have a legendary stuff.
Taimur
I bet you do.
Ali
You know, if they're got epic ones, that would be nice as well.
Taimur
Why do you want to size them up?
Ali
Because the credentials are interesting. Like if someone is ranked one in the UK versus someone is unranked. That's kind of interesting. I'm more likely to want to get to know the person who's ranked one in the UK than the person who's unranked.
Taimur
Okay, why is that?
Ali
Because I hold them in higher social esteem, because the getting ranked one in the UK is difficult.
Taimur
Somehow better people that better as a person, right? Basically it's kind of moral judgment based on this thing. Right?
Ali
I don't think it's a moral judgment, I think it's more or less. This is someone who I would you know, again, in the, in the absence of other information, this is someone who will be more interesting to speak to because they have achieved this credential relative to someone who has not.
Taimur
Wanted to speak to about World of Warcraft.
Ali
Sure, potentially, potentially. Yeah. But also about like general, like, performance and productivity and competition and high stress situations. And you know, there's more that goes into being a number one pro gamer than just being good at the game. Is that social esteem? Yeah, maybe it is. Question for you is like, if one has reached the state of Nirvana, whereby you don't give people a higher social esteem based on credentials, what would that look like in practice? What behaviors would you be doing that would be a marker that, hey, this is my internal thought process. And by that, I mean, for example, it's very easy to say I value my health and really take my physical health seriously. But if you look out of shape, chances are you probably don't take your physical health very seriously. And you're not walking, you know, walking the walk. And so for you to say that you don't increase your social esteem based on credentials. What would that like? If that were true? What would it look like in practice?
Taimur
Yeah, I think maybe one, one tangible difference is that I really don't like this idea of trying to size someone up. And I think it's really obvious when someone's trying to do it to you, I think, like, you know, when you sort of, you know, if you're in this sort of startup sphere, there are various things that people will try and do to sort of size you up, like, you know, if you tell somebody, you know, sort of run this company, or whatever, you know, they'll, their next question will typically be to try and size you up, it'll be like, Oh, cool. Like, how big are you guys are? Like, how much did you raise? And who did you raise? Who did you raise money from, you know, stuff like this, like, very transparently sizing up kind of questions. And I really don't like that. And probably the tangible difference of not actually holding people in higher social esteem because of things like this, is that I genuinely, look, again, I don't want this to come across as like[UNCLEAR] here, but I actually don't make any effort to size anyone up. If anything I make I make an active efforts to, to show that I [UNCLEAR]
Ali
You don't care about how much money they've raised?
Taimur
Yeah, like, I feel like if, you know, if I'm interacting with someone, there's no sizing up going on. I'm not making any attempt to size them up, you know, I might occasionally in my head, you know, be curious about, you know, sizing them up, but like, I think that's bad or something
Ali
Okay. So why would okay, because that's fine, so you're making the so if you and I were having a conversation, absolutely. Oh, yeah. I'm working on my own startup. And you'd be like, you know, rather than Hey, so have you ever raised money? Your next question might be Oh, what are you working on, which is a non sizey uptight question. But if later on, you found out or we exchanged Twitter thing is, and you found out that I was being followed by, you know, 100 people that you follow on Twitter, and like Paul Graham, and like these people and had like, I don't know, 50,000 followers or maybe not, because that's a negative thing for you. But you know, if you found out about some credentials, and you realize that, Oh, my God, this is actually like a $500 million valuation company. Are you honestly saying it wouldn't increase your kind of social esteem of me relative to if, for example, when I said I'm working on a startup, it was I've just learned how to code and I'm trying to build a T shirt company. I think it would and I think yeah, it's it's very good and admirable in virtue virtuous of you to not to actively not seek out those questions. But if you were to find out that information or the fact that in your head you are intrigued like it is different. We all want to put people in boxes. And it's a very different box when someone is founder of a billion dollar company than if someone is founder of their I don't knowlimited that's just learned how to use Python and on brilliant.org/not overthinking. And it's gone on Skillshare to learn how to set up a business. It is a different kettle of fish.
Taimur
Yeah, of course, it's a different kettle of fish. And like..
Ali
You're more likely to want to be friends with the big guys than the little guy. And I think internally it is going to increase especially, it's going to be like, Oh, interesting. If you find out about their credentials, it would not be a completely neutral, like would not affect your respect to them.
Taimur
Yeah, of course, like, the reaction wouldn't be completely neutral. I'm just trying to like, I'm just trying to think like, what would my, what my judgement of them be domain specific? Or would it actually creep into like I'd rather be friends with this person.
Ali
But I think it's difficult to disentangle those right? Given that you're in the startup industry, and therefore, you know, you are more likely to get on with someone who has been in it for a while, you're more likely to want to be friends with people that, you know, if we're being honest with yourself, can give you something further down the line. If you met someone who was the founder of 100 person plus company, and he was the finance guy, it could be like, hell, yes. I want to be friends with you.
Taimur
We're gonna be best friends. So yeah, okay, look, I agree. I think I would, I would be more likely to, like, want to be friends with him or whatever. But I think that comes from like the transactional, it comes from sort of, it comes from a transactional elements, rather than comes from me actually respecting them more as a person elements.
Ali
What is it? What is respecting them more as a person even mean then? Like, where? Where all of these things are somewhat? I don't know. And I don't know if it's just me where I'm like, more happy to admit that. Yes, I would respect you more as a person if you won big accolades, which, which I knew, I knew were difficult versus if you didn't, or if you were to, but you're just sort of using a different definition of respect to the person.
Taimur
it's tricky. Because it's like, I think it's a hard, it's a hard thing to articulate. And a lot of it is mostly intangible. But I think the intangible stuff does add up, you know, like..
Ali
More likely to make an effort to keep in touch with them. Okay, more likely to invite them to something, okay, more likely to make an effort to follow up with them. More likely to follow them back on Instagram. All of these things are instrumental and transactional to an extent. But the sum of all those things, someone looking on the outside might well say that you probably respect this person, more than you respect that person, based on your behavior around them.
Taimur
Yeah, I think this idea of like, respecting a person, it's outside of this realm of transactional benefits that you might get from them. Like, I think that there is something outside of that realm. And, you know, I think what you're saying is, is perfectly fair and true, as any true of me that, you know, I might, you know, I might make sort of, if there are clear transactional benefits to be gained from, you know, being friends with someone or collaborating with them, or whatever, I would probably be more likely to make an effort there, all else being equal than if there were, you know, no transactional benefits to be gained from it. But I think the idea of respect comes from something else, like, for example, like going back to the book, like, for example, why do you think, you know, if you're someone who lives in a, quote unquote, "flyover state", and hasn't gone to university, and, you know, hasn't done any of the things that the elites think are worthy and good things. Like, why why might you feel like society looks down upon you? I think, I think they're, I mean, yeah, I guess I didn't read it. Maybe that's not, it's not useful to try and try and go down that route. But like, yeah, I mean, I think in that case, there's, there's like a bunch of tangible stuff, right?
Ali
I think the problem here is that it's very easy to say that I respect every human being equally. But when it comes to our behavior, it's obviously not true that we treat every human being equally and so yeah, it's like a thought process of versus a sort of a set of actions. And, for example, if john@stripe.com were to email you versus if john84@hotmail.co.uk were to email you, you know, you would have a very different response internally to those and it would affect your external behavior. And then what's the difference between you saying all as being equal, you respect someone with email john@stripe.com, far more than you respect someone with john84@hotmail.co.uk and that's the place where i have difficulty because unless we can find, unless you can find a behavioral correlate with the thought process. It's, I'm not sure you can make the I'm not sure it's okay. I would be uncomfortable for me to say that I, I treat and respect every human being equally. And if anyone hears that line and wants to email us be like, Oh my God, Ali's the worst thing ever. Like, please, I would love for you to point to a way in which if you genuinely think you treat and respect every human being equally,in what way is your behavior, in what way is your behavior matching that thought process?
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's a fair point. To be clear. I'm not I'm not saying that I treat and respects every human being. I'm saying, I'm trying to say that it's actually a lot more within reach than the spiritual Nirvana that we've talked about in other realms.
Ali
Okay, sure.
Taimur
But yeah, I agree like that, you know, I should be able to point to something, some concrete behavioral difference.
Ali
Yeah, I think I think it's good that you, I think it's good that you actively make an effort to seem as if you're not sizing people up. But I think your internal thought process also really wants to size them up. And it's sort of like, you really want to know what someone does for a living. But when you're actively trying to play that game, where you're not being the first person to ask, so what do you do? Yeah, you're, you're playing a game there. You're actually not being authentic. I think you you turn around so I can plug in harder.
Taimur
Look, I definitely feel like the Yeah, they're definitely instances where I feel the urge to, you know, curiosity about like sizing someone up, for sure. But I think those have decreased with the active efforts, and, like, none of these things happen, like overnight, like one day, you don't respect everyone equally, and you don't even have the urge to like, try and sell. Right. Like, there's a transition. And I'd certainly in myself, like, again, I think it's probably Yeah, I think in myself, I have definitely felt the urge decreased significantly, through active efforts over just, you know, three to four years. And so, yeah, the point I'm making is that I felt the urge decrease like fine, maybe, maybe, maybe this my, you know, maybe externally my actions are broadly the same. Maybe externally, my actions are sometimes inauthentic, because I'm really curious, you know, what someone does for a living, but I make an effort not to ask them, but certainly internally, I don't feel the urge as much. And I think that's I think that's meaningful. I think that is, I think that's a difference. Like, for example, wouldn't you agree that if you internally stopped feeling the urge, you might, you might be able to more confidently say that I sort of respect people more equally now, Like if you didn't feel the urge as much?
Ali
Yeah, sure. I guess, kind of my, my original point, which is, is that it's not like you read, I don't know, "Happy" by Derren brown and suddenly become a stoic sage. It's like, you have the stoic sage as your ideal, the sort of person who respects everyone equally, and you're just sort of over time you try and bring your actions generally in line with that. And, yeah, it's a work in progress. I think we're we're all agreed on that front.
Taimur
But I'd like to reiterate that this is this is like a achievable work in Progress over a short timeframe, like a few years, whereas the stoic Sage thing is like, a life. You know, it seems like a lifelong quest.
Ali
I mean, I think it's I think it's also, I don't know, I think it is also a lifelong quest to actually get to the point where you do treat and value every human being equally. And sure, you can certainly make take steps towards it.
Taimur
Okay, okay, let me put it this way. I think I've made a lot more progress in this area than the general lifelong quest of enlightenment. I think it's an easier and easier thing to do that the general quote.
Ali
I'm not saying the stone stoic sages particularly lightened, I'm saying, you know, there, there are definitely, there's definitely progress that can be made towards this ideal goal of being in a general state of tranquility, and not letting your and not letting external factors influence your emotions, etc, etc. And certainly people have made I've made a lot, a lot of progress in that regard over the last three or four years. But I still view it as like, you know, if I could actually get to that point where nothing would affect my tranquility, that would be the lifelong quest. Equally, I strongly believe that you know, that there is there is this steep learning curve, and then you get diminishing returns, like you've probably made more headway than I have by actively thinking about this in terms of valuing, and treating human beings differently. But the endpoint of that is my is like the lifelong questwhere that is what you're actually doing. That's what I'm saying.
Taimur
I think we're in agreement. Yeah. Yeah. Great.
Ali
We've been going for an hour, 54 minutes now, as long time I think we should.
Taimur
Yeah, let's wrap up
Ali
Wrap things up here.
Taimur
So let's read out to people review.
Ali
Also on the reviews front. One thing that I don't like is when people can leave a one star review on the basis of a single episode, but like, I've been listening to our podcast for the last 200 episodes, but this episode in particular, I couldn't I could not. I could not listen to it for more than 20 minutes because of your ramping and therefore I'm going to give the whole podcast a one star review. That seems a bit sneaky. I don't know like why don't even four star review. Like if you if you've actually enjoyed the last few 200 episodes, and we've made some missteps what you know, once or twice, I feel like that's not really worthy of a one star review, but you know, call me old fashioned.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah, I get what you mean. I do think that's a little harsh. All right. Look, there's there's a bunch of interesting reviews over the past couple of the past week or so. Okay, the first is kind of nicely done. Okay, a nice find
Ali
Yeah, whatever, it's easier to read out there.
Taimur
Look, well, maybe we'll read out some bad ones. And then a nice one, because I think the bad ones are related to the misogyny stuff. And I think it's the rest of the show. So this is a this is a review entitled, "um" it's a it's a four star review. So they've done I think, what you would want them to do, which is they do with the podcast, they feel this episode is really bad as they're giving it a four star review,
Ali
Thank you. Thank you for that.
Taimur
This is from someone whose username is ProtecttheNHSandsavelives in Great Britain. So they said been listening since the first episode. I love this podcast, it's added real value to my life. But your last episode, yikes. The guest came on to hold you both accountable for how you come off as misogynistic in brackets, which you do. Yet, you both ganged up on her as a guest. It's quite difficult to hold your own in that situation. You should have had two female guests to balance it out. I don't think you two have ever interrupted a male guest this much. Yeah, I think I think the ganging up is a fair point. I think we should have like, foreseen that. That's what the dynamic might have been. And, yeah, I think that's like, a bad situation all around and I think we should have, we should probably thought about it a bit more. that like, yeah, what's gonna happen.
Ali
Yeah, I think given, so I was I was talking to Sheen about this. And she said that she didn't feel ganged up on during the podcast, because she knows us both very well. And it's like, right, sort of just having having a chat with friends. But it would have appeared externally to it would have appeared externally as if we were ganging up on her.
Taimur
Right, yeah
Ali
On that note, we're definitely planning an episode where we have two female guests to talk about similar topics.
Taimur
Yep. This was also mentioned that they didn't think we've interrupted a male guest this much.
Ali
I'm honestly not sure where this interrupting, interrupting thing comes from?
Taimur
I feel I think we certainly interrupt each other.
Ali
We do it fairly regularly.
Taimur
I guess male guests, we've had Mac on a few times. I can't remember to be honest. Maybe it's true. Yeah. I'm not sure.
Ali
But I feel, I feel I feel like the male guests we've had on haven't made points that we substantially disagree with. And therefore, you know, for example, if you were to say something that I blatantly disagreed with, I would be like, Oh, hold on, what's your definition of x? Just make sure we're on the way we're on the right page. Right, right, which would be seen as interrupting, whereas, you know, we wouldn't have needed to do that with Mac, given the sorts of things we were discussing. Okay, fair point, something worth keeping in mind.
Taimur
So bear in mind. We then had a one star review about episodes 89 and 90. The two most recent episodes. I won't read that out. I think it's a bit rude
Ali
To us or to our guests.
Taimur
Both.
Ali
Let's not read it out.
Taimur
We can handle it a good one. So this is a review entitled love the two brothers. It's a five star review from cheap labor in Australia. They say seriously, these guys seem like the most real and down to earth men there are, their banter and sometimes very philosophical debate on the human condition and not only food for thought, but also pretty reassuring for me as I feel like I'm not the only one that is overthinking. Also, this is pretty, pretty good. Also, the two guys are husband material speaking as a girl, would totally marry either of them, since they demonstrate themselves to be upstanding, thoughtful young men. Taimur is a babe though, and then a blushing face.
Ali
That's a nice review.
Taimur
We can do with more reviews like that, that wouldn't hurt. Thanks. Thanks for the reviews good and bad. Yeah, I'll think about the interrupting stuff. And yeah, we will address the misogyny topic again, with more balance with two female guests. At some point in the next few weeks, probably.
Ali
Yeah, and thank you, thank you to everyone who's because like in the, in the in that review, I think you said, Oh, whoever the the reviewer said, addressing the top coming across as misogynistic, which you do is that which you do a bit which is which is very interesting. Like it's the sort of thing we don't intend to do. And therefore if you can, like if you email us or tweet us, and you can point to specific examples where we have done it, then that will kind of help us be like, okay, we shouldn't we shouldn't do that. But just a general vibe of you guys come across as misogynistic is very difficult to actually action. And given that we don't want to come across as misogynistic. And yes, you could argue it's not your job to educate us on body blood like okay, fine, but if you would like to, then you're more than welcome to email us with with examples and we'll do our best not to come across as misogynistic
Taimur
Probably part of it's got to be like, the, the sort of vaguely sexual jokes or like, laughing at things like that. That's got to be part of it.
Ali
Well, so for me if I said I don't know like a warlock with a legendary staff. Yeah. I mean if that's like..
Taimur
I think like..
Ali
Like making any kind of joke and then kind of chuckling at it. Is that misogynistic?
Taimur
I think it might come across that way.
Ali
Okay. Because we've also had a lot of emails from people being like, I don't know how anyone has ever read has read this. This type of thing is being misogynistic.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah.
Ali
Like, you know..
Taimur
Yeah. I don't know man. It's tricky. A work in progress, a lifelong quest,
Ali
Lifelong quest for enlightenment and, yeah.
Taimur
All right, we will. We'll leave things there. Thank you for listening to this long episode, we'll do a hopefully more structured part to what we properly sort of dig into and summarize the Tyranny of Marriage next week. Hope you have a great week. Bye. Bye.
Ali
That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter please.