How can we treat children morally? (Part 1)

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
16.Aug.2020

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing today?
Taimur
Actually pretty.., mate. It's been a long day. We had a little lunch party, which extended into the evening, but we had some guests which just left.
Ali
Yeah, I feel like I timed my arrival pretty well.
Taimur
You did. You didn't do any of the house cleaning.
Ali
I got here at I think it was 1PM. And the guests were arriving by 2PM. Which was a real blow to me when I arrived because I assumed they'd arrive at 1PM, and I'd arrive --
Taimur
Just as dinner was being served.
Ali
Yeah, I was gonna swoop in with the lemons and the creme fresh that you'd messaged me to bring over. So I was feeling pretty smug.
Taimur
We had to do about an hour of cleaning
Ali
Exactly, yeah (laughter). How was the morning?
Taimur
It was rough mate. I'm not gonna lie to you. Did I do some groceries? I did some groceries yesterday. And then I had to do some more groceries today and had to do some cleaning. Yeah, it was fine. You know? All in a day's work. How are you doing? You've had your first full week of unemployment. Is that right?
Ali
First full week of unemployment. It's been supremely unproductive.
Taimur
Really? I'd love to dig into this. You did a good tweet. I can't remember the exact phraseology. But it was something along the lines of you're actually less productive on the YouTube stuff now than you were when you had a full time job distracting you from it.
Ali
Yeah, exactly. Okay, I feel like there's been a bit of a confounding factor because I've been quite ill this week. So since like Tuesday of this week, I've had like a really bad cough. And I was feeling feverish, probably associated with the fact that on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, it was like super, super hot as well. But I was convinced that I might have Coronavirus and so I got myself tested on like Friday, and you know, that came back negative. So it's all good.
Taimur
You were kind of disappointed that it came back negative, weren't
Ali
Mate, I had filmed the whole testing procedure. You know, this would you? have a good video. I was planning the thumbnail already just like me looking absolutely destitute. So we'd like, I was gonna Photoshop fake, some like sort of, I don't know, like my face to look more like flushed and erythematous than it usually isn't. I've been planning all this out for the thumbnail. And then the frickin test comes back negative.
Taimur
It's like how the day before like election results. All the newspapers, they like prepare both versions of the next morning's front page like for who wins (laughs)
Ali
Exactly that. Just in case. So it came back negative. So I've lost that piece of content, as potential.
Taimur
Aside from the content, were you kind of hoping for it just for a bit of like, excitement, or drama or something?
Ali
No, I wasn't really at all. I think had it come back positive, I would have felt better about the entirely unproductive way I spent that week, because I just like, couldn't really bring myself to do anything. workwise. And I don't know, I don't like being the sort of person who's like, Oh, well, I'm ill therefore I should take a break. Because that just seems like you know, the standard thing to do. Whereas what I thought is, yeah, I should be more productive here. But I was just like, very generally lethargic and spent about 30 hours listening to Audible this week. Speaking of Audible, this episode is brought to you by Brilliant. What is
Taimur
[SPONSOR] Brilliant is the best way to teach yourself anything Brilliant, Taimur? mathsy on lines and maths, computer science, physics, it really is very good. It's not like school stuff. It's really focuses on helping you develop real understanding and intuition. I say this every time but I really do mean it. Honestly.
Ali
Yeah. And it's actually looked at with respect by the maths community that you consider yourself to be a part of.
Taimur
Yeah, the mathematics community, the maths education community in particular, in which I'm in embedded. Yeah, it's a great service. How can listeners capitalize on this offering?
Ali
Well, listeners can capitalize on this offering and indirectly, thereby allow us to capitalize on the offering. By visiting brilliant.org/notoverthinking. And the first 200 people to hit that URL will get 20% of the annual premium subscription. It's very reasonably priced. You can teach yourself like really good, good stuff about maths, computer science, physics, problem solving. All that good jazz.
Taimur
Great stuff. Big thank you to brilliant.
Ali
Yeah, so I've been listening to a lot of Audible this week. (laughter) I've been just like blitzing through the wheel of time series. And I'm on the final book now and I'm gonna be so sad when it ends because it's just so good. It's the whole like audiobook thing is like, like imagine something like Naruto, which is like, you know, 600 episodes worth of thingy, but imagine having that experience over an extended period of time while you're doing other things. There's like nothing that beats that like for me to get into Bleach right now and have to devote weeks and weeks of my life just sitting in front of a TV watching Bleach. But you know, any audiobook series is just so good.
Taimur
Yeah, I've been doing a bit of audio booking this week myself. I've now listened to the little known saga called Harry Potter. I've listened to the first two Harry Potter audiobooks.
Ali
Oh, there's the Stephen Fry ones.
Taimur
Yeah, the narration is good. I just think like just finding a bit underwhelming man like I've seen the movies. I know what happens. It just feels it's quite comfortable just like reminiscing and kind of hearing a story that I already know. So it's not super engaging to us. I don't know if I'm going to listen to the third, fourth, fifth, I've read the sixth and seventh books.
Ali
Okay. Well, I mean, I've got three years worth of fantasy audiobook recommendations if you would.
Taimur
Yeah, maybe I'll try one of those. I do find that if I have something I'm looking forward to listening to. I'm much more likely to take out the trash and do the dishes and all these things. Because that's like ah, sick, yeah, I can listen to my audiobook.
Ali
Yeah, mate..I think like back in the day, I used to regard any time not spent on the computer as being unproductive. Now regarding the time not spent on the computer or not listening to an audiobook as being unproductive. So I've expanded my horizon.
Taimur
It's nice to see that you're growing.
Ali
Yeah, I think I'm growing a lot as a person in that regard.
Taimur
Right. So back to your lack of productivity. So are you really just like, chalking it all down to the fact that you were unwell?
Ali
I'm talking a large majority of it down to the fact that I was unwell.
Taimur
What's your mindset like? With regards to the YouTube stuff now? Because I, you know, personal anecdotes, I definitely found that when Causal was my naughty little side project that I was doing on evenings and weekends,
Ali
We need to get over your recent phrasing, phraseology. "Spank me, daddy, I've been a bad boy, naughty little side project." (laughter) I don't know what you'd be doing in your spare time. But this is problematic. Turn that slack notification off. I hate that sound.
Taimur
Yeah, so I think, you know, back when I didn't think of Causal as my work, it was, I think I had a different mindset. I'd always be itching to like, man, I could sneak another like half an hour an hour of like, Causal in. Whereas, now for example, like for the past couple of days, you know. We need to sort out our documentation for Causal. We get lots of messages and emails saying like, "Hey, man, like the documentation is out of date, the product is cool, but like, the documentation is out of date". And lots of people asking us the same question of like, oh, how does this thing work? And so it's ¢ like, long overdue that we started documentation. And I've kind of been being very, like slow and sort of putting it off as much as I can. Because if obviously, writing this documentation feels like work, and in my head Causal is now work. And so now I try and sneak off away from Causal.
Ali
You sit in the bathroom for an hour watching David Dobrik.
Taimur
Well, I've got my Nintendo Switch lies in the bathroom. So that's my Switch to..
Ali
I saw that you've been putting the Switch on top of the bathroom bin.
Taimur
Yes.
Ali
Very hygienic, but I'm sure that's fine.
Taimur
Yeah, so like, you know, back when the doctor thing was your work and the YouTube thing was your your mistress, if you will? Like how is it now? Like, you know?
Ali
Yeah, it kind of feels like work. (laughter) I don't know what extent that is just the feeling of it. Kind of me being unwell. But I think it definitely now does feel a lot like work. Like I had to really talk myself into filming yesterday's video, which I filmed because I was like, Okay, now we've got to get this video up on Tuesday. We were even planning to have a video out on Friday and on Sunday of this week. But I kind of decided that I'm ill, who cares? It's fine. And like, ironically, the subscriber growth has been better than it would have been had I published these videos. So it's really starting t make me think that in a way, like what am I really optimizing for? What s the game that I'm playing? What are the victory conditions of that game? You now, my usual spiel that I give to medical students. I'm now havin
Taimur
Yeah, I think the like, the feeling like work thing is bizarre. And I think it's all these stupid societal narratives, you know, about like work and life. And you know, these being like, separate things or whatever. Like, it's just, it's absolutely bizarre, but I think it is a weird framing that de initely holds me back. And it seems like it's sort of affecting you as well.
Ali
Yeah. It's like for example, like, I have no qualms about for example, you know, staying up till 10-11 midnight, like doing some coding or designing website, writing video script, and stuff. Back when it was my hobby, as opposed to when it was my work. But now that it's now my work, I kind of think, you know, I get to like 8pm-9pm I'm like, Oh, you know, I've had a good day, I deserve a break. And then I will just kind of do nothing or just like sit on the sofa doing an online course on brilliant.org/notoverthinking. Do someth ng completely unproducti And I feel like if I just have the mentality of you know, as long as I continue to enjoy it, then just continue doing the thing. I feel like I'd probably have more of a positive time of it rather than thinking, okay, it's 8PM, I should now get into my wind down time. And now I should do something that isn't obviousl not work. So I don't know, it's a bit of a weird one. I've still only had it fo
Taimur
I guess we need some more data. about a week
Ali
A few more data points.
Taimur
Something that I've kind of been thinking about. It's very, it's very much related to the conversation we had with Paul. What was it last week? Or two weeks ago something? Paul Millard, you should definitely check that episode out. It was about like the concept of leisure, you know, like true leisure or whatever. I think I read a tweet that someone wrote, which was something like you know, when we, you know, if you're like working and you want to take a break from work, you can watch like an hour of, you know, an hour of, you can watch like two hours of YouTube. And you still won't really feel refreshed, you still will feel like you know, it'll be like two hours of alleged relaxation, and you will feel surprisingly unrefreshed. Whereas if your break is 15 minutes of sitting there and doing nothing and just like thinking about stuff. After that 15 minutes, you will feel like, that was great, you know, I want to get back to work. And so I think there's something around like, active leisure, you know, and I feel like, you know, a lot of the doom scrolling and, and stuff like that. It's sort of like passive leisure, which isn't actually that enriching. So for example, my new mistress is like, trying to try to read more about this a couple of topics that I'm sort of interested in where, you know, fans make PDFs and books and things. And so that's the thing of like, Oh, yeah, I can get back to my laptop, I can open up Chrome, and then I can start, like, reading this PDF and making notes and stuff. That's like my new mistress. And if..
Ali
We really have to work on the framing.
Taimur
It definitely feels better than me taking like YouTube breaks and things like that. And it I think, I mean, yeah, the thing you said, of like, Oh, well, you know, when I'm winding down, I have to now do something that doesn't feel like work. What is that? Like? What kind of leisure is that?
Ali
Like, I don't know. I feel like I rarely feel the need to wind down. But I feel like I should feel the need to wind down because of the societal narrative around, it's okay to take a break. And you know, hustle culture is toxic, and all this sort of stuff. And so yeah, I feel like unless I have sort of actively written the day off, and I'm like, you know what, this is fine. I'm gonna order takeaway, I'm just gonna lie on the sofa for the next six hours listening to the Wheel of Time series on Audible. That is very refreshing, ecause it's sort of like guilt free relaxation. Whereas the okay, I'm going to ake a break, I thought, I feel like if I've had a good day of work, if I feel ike I've been productive during the daytime, then I have no qualms about kind f stopping the work because I will have gotten a reasonable amount done. But like, for example, these past couple of days, I've been waking up at like, 10AM-11AM kind of making a coffee having breakfast, and it's noon, and then I'm like, Oh, well, I guess it's time for lunch now. Warm up lunch. Watch some Hun er x Hunter or random YouTube videos. And then I'm like, It's one o'clock I'm eeling kind of tired. Let me just go on the sofa and scroll for a bit. And I f ickin discover Facebook videos. Have you seen how addictive Faceboo
Taimur
No.
Ali
It's sort of like Tick Tock and it's just like vertical scrolling through it. There's two specific genres of Facebook videos that I've been addicted to. One is clips from the Graham Norton show. Those really good. The other one is clips from the ATP tennis.
Taimur
What's ATP?
Ali
ATP is like one of those like tennis tournament type things. But it's like, you know, Roger Federer's 10 best shot
Taimur
Oh, that kind of stuff.
Ali
Kind of best shots from Wimbledon 2012 and stuff like that. I spent like an hour watching clips from tennis, like yesterday on the sofa. And at the end of it..
Taimur
Did you feel refreshed?
Ali
No, absolutely not. It was one of those things. It was like a guilty pleasure that I was taking away from what I felt I should have been doing, which was something productive. And therefore I kind of hated myself at the end of it. Despite having now seen 10 of Roger Federer's best shots.
Taimur
I've got a life hack for you. That's been working wonders for me.
Ali
Oh, yeah?
Taimur
The issue with all these life hacks is that there's diminishing returns, like they work while they're still novel. And then you kind of ignore them, or whatever. The life hack is that I've told myself, as you know, I've like told myself that look, I'm in full control of my life. I do whatever I want, when I want. And that's the best way to live. I make the rules. And then whenever I'm, you know, when I'm like doing something, I asked myself, like, what do I really want to be doing right now, you know? And for example, like if I find myself like doomscrolling in bed in the morning, or something. I actually been pretty good about that this week. But if I find myself like just scrolling through social media at any point, within like, a minute or something, I'll catch myself doing that. And I think, what do I actually want to be doing right now. And then I will generally conclude that actually, I don't want to be scrolling through social media right now. I might conclude that , no I don't fancy, like, doing Causal stuff at the moment. Maybe I'll like, you know, do some reading or something. Or I might conclude that no, I do actually want to, like, do this Causal thing. It's pretty good. We've got a good thing going. And then I will, like, I'll kind of stop doing the social media thing. Because I know that if I'm not doing what I want to be doing, I'm the mug, you know? That's just stupid. And so just like actively asking myself, like, what do I really want to be doing right now? It's basically never scrolling through social media. It's basically never like watching random YouTube videos. If I want to be doing not work, it'll be like, actually want to, like, I want to play like a bunch of like, super smash bros, you know, or like, I want to read this thing or whatever. And I find that okay.
Ali
That's a good one. Because like scrolling through social media is the very bottom of the totem pole in terms of actual, like, actual things that are fun and relaxing. There's always I feel like there are multiple things you and I could be doing that are above that, but it's just that it's so easy to just get up and scroll through it.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah.
Ali
I found that. The other day, I happened to have my Kindle just on like resting on the sofa. And so instead of doomscrolling I just picked up the Kindle and started reading, and I felt really good at the end, because I was like, Oh, this is actually what I want to be doing. It's very interesting. So yeah, cool. I'll try that. That's a good way of thinking about it. What do I actually want to be doing right now?
Taimur
Yeah, we can make a few videos out of that one.
Ali
I'm sure I can. I'm sure Angus will milk a few Instagram clips out of this.
Taimur
Okay, so onto today's topic, actually the pre today's topic.
Ali
Okay, maybe we can milk two episodes then (laughter).
Taimur
Yeah, let's see how long this goes. I've been having actually. First of all, I had a great social interaction this week. I had a friend over for dinner, who I'd never met before. And he was introduced to me by a guy who I follow on Twitter who also follows me. So this this guy and I've been tweeting mutual's for a few months time, you know, we like each other's tweets and stuff. And he messaged me last week or something saying, hey, my friend is going to you know, is moving to London from the US. I think you guys would enjoy hanging out. I was like, cool, yeah, let's do it. And then so, this week, this chap came over for dinner. I can't/won't give too many details. But it turned out that he had just gotten out of prison. He's been in prison for the past three months.
Ali
Not funny. At all.
Taimur
Yeah, he just had like, very interesting stories about what that experience was actually like.
Ali
Okay, so keep it PG.
Taimur
No, it was all fairly PG. We are very interesting chap, I've been watching like prison documentaries to try and understand that world a bit. And, yeah, it was just very interesting to have someone who, on the face of it, you know, similar kind of background and similar, you know, whatever is, as me, you know, someone who I'd see as my tribe. Yeah, doing some things in jail time.
Ali
Okay, why was that interesting?
Taimur
One of the interesting, one of the interesting things was just how, like, how warped it seems, on the inside. Like, it's where like, you know, this, you know, things kick off over like the smallest incidents or like this, you know, this, the smallest slight would like kick off a race war inside th prison and that kind of stuff. So, I think the bubble aspect of it seemed quit interesting. And when I was watching Louis Theroux documentary about the same thing, this is also something Louis picks up on where he asked like, he ask like the inmates like, you're really gonna kill this guy over a shoe? Like, doesn't that seem a bit weird to you? Yeah. And Louise, kind of wait, doesn't that seem a bit weird to you? You know, something like that. And, yeah, just like the the bubble kind of nature of it. And it kind of reminded me a bit of the bubble nature of university where like, the weirdest bizarrest little things lead to like the, you know, like a huge deal.
Ali
Like that and that Cecil Rhodes guy. Wasn't that big a deal?
Taimur
And so that was one thing. I think another interesting thing was that he felt that. It felt like he'd actually bonded with some people and like, made some real friends or whatever. But those friendships or alliances or whatever, could actually turn south, turn sour really quickly. And he kind of felt that it's like, it's actually very difficult to really build deeper meaningful bonds with people there because there's so much like distrust. That even if like you think some guys your closest mate or something, you know, the next day, if you like, say one wrong thing, or something that they might take offense at, then like, they'll just like, you know, turn on you kind of thing that was pretty interesting.
Ali
So how, how violent was this guy's experience in prison?
Taimur
No, it wasn't especially violent. I think he had a reasonable time. Sorry?
Ali
He was in a pretty cushy prison?
Taimur
It wasn't a cushy prison. There are actually from what I hear, you know. They're not called cushy prisons. But yeah, there are those kinds of places. But this was, it was like a prison-prison. He managed to mostly stay out of any conflicts. There were a couple of like things that sort of kicked off. But yeah, he mostly sort of stayed safe. And he's not a big guy. So, it could have been dangerous. But yeah, that was pretty interesting social interaction I had this week. Anyway, the real pre topic thing was, I've had conversations with a few friends in the past week or two about the whole workism stuff that we were talking to Paul about. And I found it's been quite interesting. I think one sort of pattern that I've seen is that when I'm having these conversations, people tend to sort of assume that I'm saying all aspects. Oh, actually, I think or one big thing is like everyone seems to have a different definition of work. And so most people's default definition seems to be that work is basically anything apart from like sitting on the couch, you know, like, if, you know, if you're not basically doing nothing, you're doing work. For example, if you're like writing a blog, you're doing work and recording this podcast, this would be like work or whatever. And so I think in these discussions is helpful to actually kind of define the terms a little bit. Because I guess I just sort of assumed that I'm in my own bubble of, you know, reading about this stuff and thinking about this stuff, where it seems to me that that's not a meaningful definition of work.
Ali
So how are you defining work?
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
How are you defining work? Because that's one thing I've actually been thinking about like, what is work. But I feel like I've left another kind of semantic context and more in a holistic kind of philosophical sense.
Taimur
I think it's helpful to have some like money part of it. You know, it's something that you're doing at least in part in order to make money, you know? I think that's important, because it implies a little bit of a lack of agency, like, you know, everyone probably needs to make money somehow. And so if you're thinking about, you know, what, how would I most want to be spending my time, you know, you don't get to do that, because you need to spend some of your time somehow making some money, right? And so I think that's a meaningful component of it, like, it's probably some work is probably something that you are doing in part in order to make money.
Ali
So, for example, if you were to imagine your ideal life, assuming money was no object, and then look at your life, assuming money is some kind of object. Work is that difference between the two things?
Taimur
Yeah, I'm not trying to lay down any hard boundaries here. I'm more trying to just like, approximate the space. But yeah, I think there's a money component. I think there's a component of like, yeah, I think, I guess that's like the main thing, maybe?
Ali
So this is what Vicki Robin says in the book, "Your Money or your Life?" Have you read this?
Taimur
No.
Ali
I think you should, like you would enjoy it, especially now that you're into the workers and stuff. It's the framing of the book is more than it's like a sort of guide to personal finance. But a lot of the comments that she makes at the start are very much about this work-ism stuff. And her argument is that really, the only thing that defines work is the fact that you're making money from it. And that is, therefore the definition of work. It's that thing that you're doing for the money. And she says that a lot of us like to define work in other ways. Like, you know, that thing that I get meaning from, that thing that I get social interaction from, and that thing that gives me a challenge, challenge and whatnot. And she says that you can get all of those things from non-work activity. And therefore, the thing that actually defines work is what are you doing to make money?
Taimur
Yeah, to be honest, I'd probably, I disagree with that, actually, now that I think about it. I think the salient aspects of the money thing is that it comes back to the lack of complete agency, not the complete lack of agency. But the lack of complete agency, like, you know, to some extent, you know, you have to do something to make money. And so it kind of narrows your options down and so like, you know, you won't be like 100%, doing a work thing completely out of choice. And I think they're also like non-monetary things that you still have to do out of, you know, that you're obligated to do, which will feel like work.
Ali
Like taking out the trash and stuff?
Taimur
Depends how you view taking out the trash, but I'm thinking more like more significant things. Like, for example, let's say, you have like a family member, that's like really unwell, and you have to care for them for like, many hours a day. That's I think that that would that would be reasonably considered work. And I think the reason for that is that is the lack of agency like, you know, you have to do this thing, right? So I'd say like the..
Ali
Oh, would raising kids feel like work? Because you have no, you haven't got a complete sense of agency there. It's the thing that you have to do. You're not getting paid for it. Feels similar to the caring for family member example.
Taimur
Yeah, potentially, potentially.
Ali
But then I feel like we're defining work that broadly means that a lot of I feel that like how can you make comments about the nature of work if you're including raising a family as a big work. That's not what we're talking about when we're talking about a cultural work-ism. People don't say like, what do you do expect it? You know, it's just not a thing.
Taimur
Like my stupid kids I'm raising them all (laughter). Okay, yeah, fair. All right yeah, I'm having to narrow down to the money thing.
Ali
Okay. So you said you've been having chats with people about this?
Taimur
Yeah. So I think one thing that it's helpful to do in these chat is to kind of define what you mean by work. I think the other thing is that most people have maybe this is just poor communication on my part, but most people seem to assume that what I'm trying to say is that all aspects of work are bad. And that we need to sort of..
Ali
Abolish work
Taimur
Yeah, abolish work.
Ali
Defund work.
Taimur
Yeah, defund work. Exactly. Whereas what I'm really trying to say is that we just needed like a cultural correction in the other direction of work-ism. And so you know, in these conversations, people will be like, well, you know, work has benefits, you know, there's like, socializing, gives you a sense of purpose, meaning blah, blah. Yeah, of course it does. It does all those things. And that's great. But I'm not trying to say it doesn't do those things. So I found that, yeah, I mean, I guess this is like, it's the kind of argumentation is the wrong word. But like, it's the kind of thing you might read online about, like, oh, how to convince people. First, try and validate their position. And so I think maybe it's useful to start off by saying, you know, if you're trying to convince someone that this workism thing is an actual problem, Start by saying, Look, what has work has some benefits, you know, it's where we get some meaning. It passes the time, you know, make some money, like, there are some pretty good things about work. But you know, it's a bit weird. There's like, this bad thing, you know, that kind of approach. So I think that's probably a better way to have these conversations.
Ali
So what's your? Have you got like a list in your head of sort of bad things about work?
Taimur
No, that's the thing. I also haven't like, properly, sort of condensed my actual thoughts and feelings about this. And so oftentimes, when I'm trying to sort of, I'm trying to talk to people about it. You know this like, this sort of meme picture of this guy standing in front of a pinboard like looking kind of crazy and then there's all these like this red thread, leading to lots of different things. He's trying to like try and explain. So like his crazy conspiracy theories thing. I feel like when I have an idea that I feel strongly about, but I haven't like properly ordered and arranged my thoughts about it. I feel a bit like that, where, I'm basically going like, "This work thing man.. come on!"
Ali
There's something wrong here. (laughter) There's something wrong that I can't quite figure it out.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah.
Ali
I really liked one of Paul's threads which is about.. I really liked one of Paul's threads that I read in its entirety today, which was about the accidental meaning in life. I guess, I'm sure you've come across this one. But now this is something that I'm sort of, I think when it comes to these sorts of conversations. It's useful to have a few bits that you can call upon when you need to, And I think accidental meaning is a good bit to have.
Taimur
That is nice. Yeah.
Ali
So for our listeners, Paul Millard's theory about accidental meaning is that the kind of boomer generation found their lives to be quite meaningful. And the boomer generation is also the generation that was like, you know, stick to the same company, work your way up over a 50 year period, get promoted every 10 years along the way, and you will live a happy life. And his main arguments, his argument is that because of the way that society was structured at the time, and this is less the case now. Because of the way society was structured, people found meaning in their lives. But this was accidental meaning not related to the work. They found the meaning because firstly, fewer people lived in cities, more people live in like small towns and suburbs and stuff. Secondly, generally, there was a stay at home parent. Thirdly, generally, both parents took an active role in the community. Fourthly, the community was like more of a thing you would be friends with your neighbors, you'd go to your local church, all of these things that you know, you would get married, you would probably live in the same place for a long time, you would have some kids, you would attend the church, you would go to local events, you would join the schools committee, like whatever all of these things will lead to us staying in one place, building up these connections as community. And therefore your life would have a sense of meaning, because you've got the relationship side sorted and alongside of just so happened that you were working at the same company, which allowed all this to happen. And his point is that, therefore the meaning came accidentally based on result of how society will scale.
Taimur
It wasn't actually a bad setup back then.
Ali
Yeah. Whereas nowadays, you could be doing the sort of working your career, you will work in the corporate ladder. Like whatever you want to do. But you actually have to think a lot harder about getting the meaning in your life. Because nowadays, we are less concerned about living in the suburbs, and sort of getting in touch with our local community, we're less concerned about one of the parents always being at home to look after the kids and to build a community. We're less concerned about going to church and local community events. We have you know, you and I hardly know who the hell our neighbors are. Which was I think unheard of like 50 years ago. So now it's not a case of you work your way up the corporate ladder and your life just happens to be meaningful. It's more a case of fine, do what you want for work, but recognize that you have to put effort in to find meaning.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, that's great stuff. I back that. That's a pretty good summary of the thread. Do you just come up with that?
Ali
Yeah, man.
Taimur
Wow.
Ali
I phrased it once that some girl interviewed me for a book that she's writing about four hours ago. And she asked me something about work. AndI sort of spieled the accidental meaning thing. So the fact that I've talked.
Taimur
Yeah, that's helpful.
Ali
It helped..good retellings of the story.
Taimur
Did you give Paul credit? Or are you staking your claim on accidental reading?
Ali
No, I did not give Paul credit in the interview. But he has credit in this podcast. That's another thing. That you know, like to what extent do you cite your sources? I'm talking about ideas. I think in general, probably the policy is to cite less rather than cite more.
Taimur
Whose policy?
Ali
This is Derek Sivers's policy. It's also kind of my policy. Like, if you're, I think it kind of depends on the context, in a long form podcast like this, it makes sense to cite the source. In a half an hour interview where someone's interviewing you for their book to try and find out stuff about your life, you don't want to.
Taimur
What's the book?
Ali
It's something about how underdogs can achieve success or something like that. I had..
Taimur
She looked at you and she thought man.
Ali
Man, this guy..loser (laughter)
Taimur
How did he do it? (laughter)
Ali
I don't know. It's it's some college student in America who's like writing a book on the side and is trying to interview ostensibly successful people who have come from like less traditional backgrounds. I don't know what's non traditional about my background, which is a point that I was like, look, man, I don't consider myself an underdog in the slightest. The privilege is stacked up in my favor.
Taimur
Yeah, good stuff. So yeah, I've been having these work conversations seems like you have as well. Seems like thoughts need to be condensed and organized in order to..
Ali
....
Taimur
Yeah, recruit more people.
Ali
How's this Evergreen Notes thing it's actually pretty legit? Like, h w familiar are you with the Evergreen Notes vib
Taimur
Is this Andy Matuschak post about it?
Ali
Yeah, and kind of the equivalent thing of the Zettelkasten method. Newman's..
Taimur
I know all these words. I haven't read any of them.
Ali
Ok that's fair enough. But basically, the idea behind Evergreen Notes is, at least my understanding of it, is that when you're taking notes from a source, you want to take literature notes, like you know notes from the thing, but then you want to convert those into Evergreen Notes and an Evergreen Note would be a note that makes a single point. So for example, around the whole work thing, one of my Evergreen Notes is that work is synonymous with misery. And I would tag that as an Evergreen Note and I would say, okay, this is the sort of, you know, sort of write up in my own words, you know, work is synonymous with misery, because blah, blah, blah, and say source like Naval, this podcast thingy..
Taimur
By the hooks for your bits that you then rattle off.
Ali
Yeah, exactly. And so then, in my kind of general index system. I have kind of the topic of work. And one of my links underneath that is work is synonymous with misery. Another one underneath for me. How do we decide what to do for work? That sort of stuff. So I think that's a good way of, like, at least I find it to be a good way of finding bits to hang my thinking off.
Taimur
Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, I think that's probably how I make notes. Anyway, yeah, that's good stuff. Okay. Just to, this will be a brief like real topic, but I've started doing more digging into it. You know, have like going on sort of, you know, crazy person style rounds of like, Man, we're really mean to kids, kind of thing.
Ali
Yeah, you're a big fan of the children's.
Taimur
Yeah, so I've been doing some digging into there. This was actually sparked by a podcast listener emailed in with a PDF recommendation of this listener. I don't know if it's a, I don't know how they identify it. But they emailed this thing. Let me just get it up. So this is the newsletter of the American Philosophical Association, and it's the feminism and philosophy section of the newsletter. It's for spring 2020. And there's a phenomenal essay called Taking Children's Autonomy Seriously As a Parent, by Quill Rebecca Kukla. I think I'm probably butchering that. And this was, I read this a week ago, I read this on Sunday. It was like the highlight of I don't know what. It was, like, amazing to read this. It validated all these things that I was sort of vaguely thinking and couldn't quite put my finger on. And you kind of saying, you know, I remember you made some sneering comment last time I went off on one about this, you're like, "Wait, no, arguably, we take children too seriously. You have all these people, all these kids saying they're always stressed in school and stuff? And surely we shouldn't be listening to them" or something. You made some kind of comment like that. (laughter) And yeah, so like, it just validated lots of things for me. Let me give you a summary of the essay.
Ali
Okay, so we've been going for 36 minutes so far. Are you sure you don't want to do it at a diffferent.?
Taimur
No, no, I haven't gone too deep on this yet. This is..
Ali
Preliminary.
Taimur
This is a preliminary.
Ali
Teaser, if you will.
Taimur
Basically, the way I'm thinking about this is that I need, you know, I need to like figure out the best way to you know, structure this manifesto to get more people recruited for this cause similar to like, the work thing, right? And so I think there's a few entry points that I think could be reasonable. And I think this that this essay, is a really good start. So Quill, she makes a few points in the essay about like, why we actually treat children very immorally. And I think one caveat when having, I think one useful caveat in the work-ism discussions is that people sometimes like assume that, you know, I'm trying to say like, the 9-5 is bad for everyone, you know, nobody should have a day job, you know, I'm not trying to say any of those things. I'm just trying to say that, you know, we should have a different mindset when we think about these things. And similarly, with this children stuff, you know, one way to misinterpret what I'm trying to say, is to think I'm trying to be prescriptive about like, you should treat your child this way, or like people should treat their children this way. I'm not trying to say that I'm trying to say that we should have a different mindset when we think about children. And you know, for some people, you know, there might be no tangible difference between how they actually treat their kids, even if they have this different mindset. I think different mindset is an important starting point. Right? And so, one way in which we don't treat children, as people is you know, when we normally think about groups of people, there are some, like ground level rules that we, you know, recognize for like, this is how you should treat people, you know? For example, it would be ridiculous, it would be unacceptable to say something like I don't like hispanics, or I don't like lesbians, it would be very unacceptable to say that in you know, nowadays, but saying something like, I don't like kids. It's pretty acceptable thing to say, you probably get people saying, Oh my god, man, they're the worst, hate them. Like, these are human beings, imagine saying that about any other group of people, you know? It would be ridiculous. And so, you know, that's pretty weird, right? That kind of suggests that we're thinking about this in an unusual way. We also discount the testimony of children more so than we should. We also do weird things like just gaslighting them straight up lying to them about like, hey, man, this is like Santa Claus guy gives you your presents every year. There's this tooth fairy. And then we think it's cute when they believe our lies. This would again be a very weird thing to do to other groups of people. Another major sort of difference is that we restrict where they can go and kind of what they can do. To much greater extent than we, you know, would even think about restricting other people's lives, you know, we decide, you know which hobbies we think the kids should have. We decide, you know, which relatives the kids should hug, you know, Oh go give, so and so a hug and kiss or whatever, like, pretty weird. You know, imagine trying to control that with like someone you consider an actual person, that will be bizarre. And Quill says that, you know, children's autonomy rights -- autonomy rights is a phrase that she uses -- are as strong and central to their flourishing as anyone else is. And one of our sort of core moral tasks, as you know, this is from the perspective of a parent, she's a parent. One of our core moral task is to enhance and protect their autonomy as much as possible. And there are lots of weird cultural norms for parenting that push us against this, like, you're almost seen as a good parent, if you're being more restrictive to your kids. We associate good parenting with some level of oppression of like, you know, oh, man, like you're sending them to hockey class, and Kumon, and all this kind of stuff, man, great parent, you know, you've got them under lock and key, good for you. But that's, again, very weird thing if you consider any other group of people, right? And she says that there are two underlying ideologies at work here. The first is that we kind of see children as not full people, we don't see them as full people. We don't grant them like the same level of personhood that we would grant basically anyone else. And quill says that this is not really valid. Like, you know, the reason, for example, you know, if you were trying to justify why it's reasonable to treat children as not full people, what reason might you give?
Ali
They're young, the brains aren't fully developed, they haven't got the capacity to make correct decisions, they're impulsive. Therefore, given that I have the best interests at heart, I would treat them in a way that I would treat a patient who lacks capacity, I would act in their best interests, because it's what's best for them, even though they don't know.
Taimur
Okay, yeah, sure. Yeah. So you're kind of getting at this idea that they're not like independent, like, you know, they're not really independent. And Quill says, this doesn't really make sense. Independence is not like a requirement for what she calls moral personhood. You know, if you think about, like, what constitutes a person, independence is not really one of those things. Because if you think about it, we all, you know, our dependency on other people, like fluctuates constantly in different domains and different ways across our lives. And the moral ideal that we should, you know, try and reach is that we, we kind of, you know, for people who are dependent in some way, in some part of their life, we should, you know, support them while trying to let them maximize their autonomy as much as possible.
Ali
Oh yeah, there's like a huge thing in medicine, like in the care of the elderly. How do you recognize that the person is dependent in some way. And how do you sort of tweak the circumstances in a way that maximizes their autonomy?
Taimur
Yeah, 100% Yeah, I was about to give that example, like, if you have an elderly person, who is now kind of dependent on other people to care for them, your mindset is not like, Alright, this person is dependent, I own them, I decide everything about them, you know, this kind of..Your mindset is ,okay, this is a human being, you know, they're dependent on me in certain ways and, you know, I will sort of help them as and when required, but as far as possible, I would like to give them as much autonomy as I can, right? It's just a very different mindset. And so this thing of like children aren't full people, because they're dependent, we don't really apply the same standard to, for example, elderly people who are, in many ways, equally dependent, as children, right? And there's a good book, which Quill suggests which I've read through, I feel like it's called Holding and Letting Go. And there's a quote from that book, which is that "Our moral task is to hold others in personhood, when they are vulnerable, independent, not to co-opt their personhood." We want to like, you know, hold on to their personhood, rather than like, taking over it kind of thing. So that's one thing, one like weird ideology is like children aren't full people, and so it's justifiable to treat them in this way. The other ideology, and this is messed up. The other ideology is I mean, it's basically objectification, right? It kind of frames things as like, children are like this product, and it's the parents responsibility to create, you know, the best kind of product or a specific kind of product, you know? And she says that this ties into like, stuff we see around like productivity culture, we kind of see kids as this thing that needs to be crafted in a particular way. And we try and like measure how well we've crafted them, that kind of stuff. And children are this like weird moral space, where we are happy to justify whatever means as long as it gets to us to a good end, which is like some final result where we can judge the quality of the result on something. And so you know, when you hear people talking about on, you know, should teachers and parents be allowed to beat their kids or whatever, you know, the kinds of arguments that you hear are like, well, actually, if you look at the research, you know, if you beat your kids, they end up worse or something like it's very like means-to-an-ends argument. And, you know, if you were to consider like, you know, should we be physically abusing, you know, x group of people? And you know, the argument most people will go to is no, that's immoral. And we've collectively decided we should not physically abuse people. The argument when it comes to kids is like, you know, screw their, like, sort of the status as part of the moral community. But like, it actually leads to them becoming worse final products. And so that's why we shouldn't be people. That's weird, right? That's like a weird way to think about a person. And again, like arguments, even something that's arguably less extreme than corporal punishment, you hear arguments against, like, tiger parents, or helicopter parents, you know, they're basically control their kids, you know, make them do all these things and keep them under lock and key. The arguments are not that this is a weird and immoral thing to do to another human being. The arguments of that "well, if you if you look at the stats, you know, it's bad for the children, it doesn't foster creativity, blah, blah, blah, blah,"And it's just a weird way of looking at it, right? So I think these two ideologies is the first of like, children aren't full people, and so it's justifiable to treat them in this way. And the second of like, children are basically objects, it's a parent's responsibility to kind of craft them in into some final result that the parents or other people can then evaluate. Alright, so those are two pretty weird things. Any thoughts on those before I make a few more points?
Ali
That all makes sense. I don't like so, I have token objections that come up in my mind when you're saying these things. But they're all like very token.
Taimur
What do you mean?
Ali
As in, you know, when you're saying that, Oh, well. It's like that part of me that essentially accepts the status quo and is trying to come up with random arguments to attempt to argue against what you're saying. So when you're like, well, we should give kids more autonomy. Then I'm thinking. Yeah. But you know, sometimes, you know, I'm not going to give a kid autonomy to just cross the road for no reason.
Taimur
Right, and yes, this comes back to my initial point.......I'm saying you might still conclude that I shouldn't let my kid run in front of a car, you probably should conclude that. But it's a different mindset, right? That we need. The other point she makes is just quite interesting is that usually when we think about power dynamics, you know? Whenever there's a position in which one party has sort of an extreme amount of power over another. We think about it very cautiously. So you know, relationships in the workplace between like a manager and their direct reports, we think, oh, man, this is, you know, this dangerous territory. There's a power dynamic, we want to be cautious about this, you know, PhD supervisors, and their students, and the supervisors doesn't want to be too paternalistic about like, telling the students exactly what they're doing an stuff, because it's down to the student, right? And so usually, when there's strong power dynamic, we are cautious, to try and be careful not to abuse tha power. But when it comes to the power that parents have over children, lik there's no thought given to it at all, it's like, it almost, you know, it feel like sometimes we see things as like children being owned by the parents. An like this power dynamic is right and just and you know, all is well Whereas, there's very obviously, like a clear danger of abuse of that power, you know? So I think that's, yeah, interesting point by that. And yeah, there's like a few other like, minor points. She names this thing called the "Minimum Invasion Principle" where like, you know, you should only kind of invade p ople in order to stop them from harming themselves or harming other people and s uff. And so this is kind of what we're saying about, like, you want to give s meone maximum autonomy while still taking care of their needs and things.
Ali
Yeah, I mean, I've often wondered about things like this, because obviously, everyone would conclude that, you know, I want to stop my kid from crossing the road, because otherwise he's gonna die. I think that's a pretty uncontroversial thing to say. But for example, when it comes to I'm gonna make my kid pray five times a day, because then he's less likely to go to Hell. Like,
Taimur
I think this author would definitely think that's bad. Yeah, she how do you? I think that's that's quite a modern view on things. I like broadly agree with basically says that, you know, of course, we want kids to turn out like good and happy, who contribute to society. We want them to share our values, but crucially, we like we can't coerce them into doing all these things that we try and coerce them into doing. And so yeah, I think like, I think she makes lots of very good points. I'm totally on board. I think that the two things that I mean, that might be one issue with this, with what she's saying is that her whole thing is predicated on this idea that like individual autonomy and independence is like a really important sort of thing. it, you know? But, I think you might take issue with like, you know, the author holding like individual autonomy as like a name, you know. If you take issue with that, you can you can reasonably take issue with with the rest of this thing. And you might take issue with that. Particularly if your framework for living comes from something like a religion, where you believe that, you know, this is the best way to live your life because it says so in the Quran, the Bi le, whatever. And, you know, predicated on assuming that is the best way to live your life, you probably should get your kids to pray five times a day, go to church, whatever, you know? That's probably the right thing to do if you truly believe in that stuff. So yeah, one issue is that like, is like individual autonomy, actually, like the most important thing?
Ali
Yeah, this is something that we're gonna talk a lot more about in our upcoming episode about the righteous mind, which kind of breaks down the six tastebuds of morality and talks about how essentially, people on the left only really look at like, well, he says three of them, but really, people on the left focus very much on the Care Harm Foundation. As you know, is this thing harming people? And the Liberty Oppression Foundation, like, you know, is our oppressed minorities being taken care of? Whereas people on the right kind of the conservative people would view actually use old all six moral taste receptors, the others being respect for authority, the principle of sanctity, and like a few others, sort of, you can see how people that kind of leaning would say, actually, this idea that everyone deserves autonomy being like a fundamental, like the most important thing, the North Star is actually flawed and it's equally important to respect sanctity and authority and to have stuff for the good of society. So that could be kind of where this falls down.
Taimur
Yeah. And I think that's pretty defensible. See, I think that is one issue with this. Another, and this isn't an issue with this. And this speaks more to the like, the tangible, okay, how should I treat my kid versus like, what's the right mindset? I think, like, when it comes to mindset stuff, you know, all these points are very good. But basically, I think one big purpose of parenting is to help children make decisions that are in their long term best interests which the child might not be able to foresee or appreciate in the present, you know. And so like, when it comes down to a lot of the things of like, you know, how much I restrict my child's movements and things like that. You know, I imagine any most justifications for doing these things will be like, well, it's in the child's long term best interests that they, you know, go to this hockey lesson and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I think that's fair, but I think it's a double edged. I think there are a lot of like, intellectual, intellectual is a wrong word. There are a lot of trap holes, you can fall into where you feel like you actually have, you can actually evaluate, well, what the long term benefit of things are. And so, you know, a lot of parents might promote their kids into like going down, like the standard path of like, you know, study this thing, and you know, go work at this kind of company, because, you know, it'll give you like a stable job, that kind of stuff. I think there's a danger where, you know, the parent might actually not be in a good position to judge, you know? What's going to be a good economic move 30 years from now, stuff like that. And then I think there's also like, another Trap Hole, that you can kind of fall into is kind of pandering to your own comfort, like pandering to optics that make you feel good. And I think this isn't. I haven't made a note about this in my rome. But I think this is an example that, that she gives, which is that, you know, a lot of parents restricts the movement of their daughters far more than they restrict the movement of their sons. Especially like, you know, going out at night and things And, you know, if you ask them, you know, why are you doing that? The first sort like that. of justification is going to be, well it's not safe, you know? Who knows what's going to happen? All this kind of stuff. You know, the authors of the essay says that, well, actually, if you look at the numbers, and you know, all these dangers that you think they're all when your daughter goes out at night are far more prevalent at school and the workplace, blah, blah, blah. So like, if you think that's a real reason, then you're not really justified because then you keep them basically locked up all the time. And then the parent might say, okay, fine, that might be true, but you know, I just be more comfortable knowing that she's not out there in the dark, whatever. And the author says that this is like, this is not really justifiable, like your personal comfort, you know, does not trump like, you know, another human beings kind of liberty, basically. It comes back -- it's based, like an optics thing. The whole thing about like, peeing in the sink. Again, it's like a personal comfort thing of like, oh, that looks icky, or whatever. It's the same thing or, you know, looks kind of it feels kind of weird, if my daughter's like, out alone at night or something. And, yeah, so I think that this sort of pandering to your own comfort and your own sort of weird optics is another potential trap door, that might make you make bad decisions when you are deciding, like, tangibly what restrictions do I impose on my child. So that was, yeah, that was great stuff, man. And I think, yeah, I think when having these conversations with people, I think I really need to stress the sort of mindset versus, you know, actual practice thing. Because like, yeah, even after I told you that the thoughts that were still going through your head you felt like it was an actual practice stuff. So I think that's gonna be really important when, when trying to recruit people for this cause. So that was one thing. So I'm very early on this journey, if any more listeners have really very interesting recommendations, please send them my way. This is great stuff. This is like my favorite thing right now. And just, you know, while we're on the topic. A couple of months ago, I listened to a good podcast episode. Are you kidding me? I didn't make notes about that. Well, looks like I'm gonna make notes.
Ali
Alright, well, thanks, everyone for listening. Should we end by reading a review?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
My phone is out of action, because it's filming you.
Taimur
Okay. Are you like more convinced of what I was trying to say before now? Like, this is a serious issue. Right? This is a big deal. This kid stuff?
Ali
Yeah, I think I've never previously appreciated just how weird it is. We think about kids these way. In this way.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Yeah. Interesting idea.
Taimur
Do you think you will try and recruit people towards the cause once I have more of a manifesto?
Ali
Once you have more of a manifesto. Sure.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
Yeah, absolutely. But I think also, I think also, so, one thing I didn't like about the way that you're phrasing this stuff, and this is most likely just a function of the fact that you're just getting into this. Is for example, this discomfort, you know, if I were a dad and my daughter's in some nightclub or something, and I have like a, you know, a discomfort with that idea. I think it feels dissatisfying to say, for me to say that it's just a weird comfort thing. Like, I think it's important to understand that this comes from a background of stuff and understanding the stuff that that particular discomfort comes from. Sort of being able to understand the parts before running it is kind of weird. Which I guess you know because you haven't explored much about this topic yet.
Taimur
Yep. I'm on board by this. This week's review comes from...
Ali
I want to read the review. That way I can put a clip because you've had a few review clips.
Taimur
Sorry, mate.
Ali
All right, we have a review from Marty Serrano, from the United States of America. It's titled "11 out of 10 worth catching up to." So, he or she says, "I started listening to you guys three weeks ago and just finished listening to your principles of productivity episode. I relate to when people say your podcast has changed our lives, but mostly because I find that the ideas or concepts you guys discuss are things I've thought about but haven't been able to properly articulate or solidify. I love the balance between banter and insight that comes with each episode. And I look forward to finally finishing the backlog of episodes I have yet to listen to. Just want to thank you guys, for two for recommending the courage to be disliked has been a great read and super helpful with my social anxiety. Stay safe." Thank you very much Marty. That's a lovely review if you're listening to this or watching this on the gram. Check out our podcast at notoverthinking.com
Taimur
Good stuff. Thanks for listening and see you next week. Bye
Ali
That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter please.