How to Understand Things

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
12.Jul.2020

notes

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and youtuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur, I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity, and human condition.
Ali
Hello and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing today?
Taimur
I'm doing all right, we're recording. It's pretty late. It's half past 11 at night, but I have a good idea for this this week's conversation text. So I'm looking forward to this.
Ali
Good. I feel like the vibe at night is just a different sort of, it's a qualitatively different kind of vibe.
Taimur
Nice.
Ali
Than in the daytime. I feel like that's the sort of thing you would say.
Taimur
I've always said that kind of thing. Exactly. Precisely to you.
Ali
I don't think you have.
Taimur
I've used the word. I've used the term qualitatively different times recently.
Ali
I've used it myself many a time in my life.
Taimur
Ah okay, nice. A couple of bits of housekeeping before we start.
Ali
Alright. Sam Harris (laughter).
Taimur
Those who don't know, that's how Sam Harris starts his podcasts. We had an interesting email. Let me just open up my email.
Ali
Okay. But before we go into that, we should tell the listeners a very important thing.
Taimur
What's that?
Ali
Very important announcement that this podcast is brought to you by Skillshare.
Taimur
Nice.
Ali
Skillshare, isn't it?
Taimur
I think it's Skillshare.
Ali
I think a Skillshare for the week. Skillshare is a fantastic online community. It's a platform that has 1000s and 1000s of online classes, for all sorts of things like video editing, and graphic design, illustration and even cooking. You can sign up to a free two month trial by going to skillshare.com/notoverthinking. And while you're there, I've got like 12 plus, 12 plus hours worth of content on Skillshare. Do you know what I've got Taimur? Yeah. Have you heard the spiel enough times?
Taimur
Right? You have how to make videos?
Ali
I have had how to make videos, of course. Very good.
Taimur
You have a how to study for exams? You have a Anki Course.
Ali
Yes.
Taimur
And what are your other one?
Ali
That was on the featured list. No, no, that's exactly. And and the fourth one is a more recent edition.
Taimur
I think the Anki was the most recent.
Ali
Now make your way behind the times got a fourth one. In fact, we did a whole podcast episode about that episode 53 for those of you.
Taimur
Oh, productivity.
Ali
Productivity, exactly. So I've got like 12 plus hours worth of content on Skillshare, you should check it out. skillshare.com/notoverthinking. And while you're there, you can watch 1000s of other online classes as well, and all sorts of really cool stuff. So thank you, Skillshare, for sponsoring this episode.
Taimur
Thank you very much to Skillshare. Right. So the the email that one of our listeners sent in.
Ali
Yes. Is this another hate mail?
Taimur
It's not a hate mail? I think it's I think it's an astute observation.
Ali
Okay. Is it Taimur was really funny, and Ali's just.
Taimur
No, not quite.
Ali
It's not one of those.
Taimur
There are loads of those. No, so this is the title of this email is Ali and pop culture references. And, and the observation that this listener has made. I don't know the name. It's just AA as was what the name is. They say that one thing I've noticed when listened to the pod. And this may be something for Taimur to prod early on, is oftentimes when there is a pop culture reference, which Ali is unaware of, it seems that he makes it a point to demonstrate his unawareness. He gives some examples like Meryl Streep came up, Muhammad Ali came up on the podcast, and the listener is asking, Is this just Ali genuinely not understanding a particular reference? Or is it him exaggerating his actual level of unawareness to signal some sort of superiority that he has to, to above such.
Ali
Oh, interesting.
Taimur
And so, okay, so I think there's there's actually two different things that happen. The first is you trolling when you pretend not to know something that you do know?
Ali
Yep.
Taimur
And.
Ali
I don't I don't do a lot of that.
Taimur
I think it's a fairly regular occurrence.
Ali
Really? Or trolling when I.
Taimur
Just like trolling about some pop culture thing. Like, if someone comes up, you know, if like, Michael Phelps, or something comes out and be like, Oh, yeah, he's that runner, isn't he? You know
Ali
yeah, but that's like, clearly,
Taimur
Yeah, so I think there's clear trolling. And I think partly what this listener is referring to, is actually just clear trolling.
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
But I think you also you do also take a strange amount of pride in not knowing other references. And I have felt that you kind of exaggerate that a little bit. Or like, or like you, you seem to be trying to signal something or like, try and make this part of your brand or something that you're kind of clueless about what's going on in the real world or something like that. What do you think?
Ali
Um, I think that's fair to say, I think my stance on these things is that if there is a popular cultural reference that I don't get I, a, I want, I want to understand the reference. Because just ignorance in general is just not a good thing. So like, I want to understand the reference and I'm totally okay with, with owning up to the fact that I didn't get the reference. Like for example, if I were in a medical lecture and they are and they say something and I don't understand it, I'm totally okay with putting (UNCLEAR). Oh, sorry. What does that mean.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
It's it's mostly a case of wanting to understand it, but there there is also a You know, the hidden agenda that we talked about in last week's episode where I don't mind at all. And in fact, I probably take pride in the fact that I'm okay to be seen as the guy who doesn't know this this.
Taimur
Okay. Yeah.
Ali
And also that I'm totally okay with being seen as the guy who's like, What's NSYNC for example, because often it leads to then an entry like, oh my god, you don't know what NSYNC? No, you know, I thought music was around back in the day, the only music I listened to was on Heart Radio when driving in my friend's mom's car. So I friggin love take that, you know, it's it's that sort of aspect of the brand. But I think mostly it's a fact. It's, it's a case of wanting to understand the reference and being okay with owning up to not knowing stuff.
Taimur
Okay, that's fair. Yeah, it was interesting that the listener
Ali
Steep observation AA. caught on to it.
Taimur
But I think you do enjoy the like, Oh, my God, you don't know this. You you love it. You love it when someone gives you that response?
Ali
Yeah, it's, it makes far more interesting conversation. I, I enjoy having the piece taken out of me.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
Especially when it comes to things that I really do not give a toss about. Like, Oh, my God, you can't cook for yourself. Like, no. Yeah, I'm sorry. That that sort of thing.
Taimur
Okay, cool. Nice.
Ali
I think that's the vibe.
Taimur
Yeah. So that was a good observation from the listener.
Ali
Nice one. Thank you, listener.
Taimur
It seems like there's a bit of signaling and a bit of genuine, wanting to find things out.
Ali
Yeah. Genuine ignorance.
Taimur
Genuine ignorance. Yeah. Nice. Is there any other housekeeping before we get down to it?
Ali
I mean, skillshare.com/notoverthinking. I think people everyone should visit that. And if you haven't visited that, then you know, what do you what are you doing, guys? Oh, other other housekeeping. housekeeping. you're desperate had 10,000 subscribers or followers on Instagram?
Taimur
Yeah, dude, it's so hard. So last week's episode, I begged all the all the listeners to follow me. I think that probably increased my following count by probably like just under 1000 or something.
Ali
Really? 1000 people followed you off of the podcast episode last week?
Taimur
I think so like just under 1000. But like, roughly.
Ali
Pretty good.
Taimur
And then you post it on your story today, that got like a few 100 maybe like five, five or 600 or something. But it's just really hard. Like,
Ali
So you're saying I'm less popular than the podcast?
Taimur
Well, maybe people listen to what you're saying on your Instagram Stories less than they listen to what we're saying.
Ali
Okay, thank you. That's very kind.
Taimur
Yeah, but by getting Instagram followers is is no easy feat.
Ali
So everyone go to refrigerated? And I'll have you know, that is a non trivial spelling. refrigerator without the D.
Taimur
There's a D on the end, not in the middle.
Ali
Oh, yeah.
Taimur
Anyway, we shouldn't dwell on this. This is a waste of time.
Ali
What do we actually tell people?
Taimur
Okay, so the thing. So let me, let me tell you a story. I, so this is this is something I wanted to bring up in last week's episode. And then you were like, no, no saving for the next episode, because we already have like an insight this week or something. All right. So this is like, I don't know why I was thinking about this. But in the past couple of weeks, I think back to a statistics class that I had, when I was like, 15, or something. In year 10. We did GCSE statistics at school, right. And part of doing part of part of the course was to learn about, about like surveying people, right? You know, if you want to, like survey a group of people, what's like the best way to go around that. And in particular, we learned about different ways that you can sample a population. So if you want to find out, you know, which, which way is the England going to vote in the next election, you have all these pollsters who will sample you know, who will have little surveys that they do in the general public to try and get an accurate picture of which way, you know which way the election is going to go. Right. And one of the sampling methods that we learned is called stratified sampling. Do you remember this?
Ali
Oh, yes.
Taimur
Yeah. What do you want to explain stratified sampling?
Ali
Sure. So, I think Before explaining stratified sampling, it's worth explaining what random sampling is, which is where you have the population and you pick, let's say, 1000, people at random, completely random from the population. That might be a reasonable way of going about it, but an alternative way of stratified sampling, where you split the population into different strata by whatever metric you want. So for example, let's say you split it up by age. Now, let's say you happen to be living in an aging population like the UK or like Japan, as your YouTube video famous, everything described, we'll link that in the show notes. For context, this is when Taimur was 12 or 13 years old, he was giving a class presentation about the aging population of Japan, and how, and I think I think you normally argued that one of the reasons for the aging population in Japan was something to do with the abundance of love hotels.
Taimur
Yes.
Ali
Perhaps the lack of love hotel, I'm not entirely sure what the argument was, but the listeners should check that out.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Anyway, an aging population like the UK or Japan might have a disproportionate number of old people. So you know, maybe, let's say hypothetically 80% of the population was over the age of 60. Doing random sampling in that context, might not give you an entirely accurate picture of what's going on. So you might decide to stratify the population by age group and then sort of based on the numbers of people in each age group, you could give them that a proportional number of votes. And this is sort of vaguely how some voter voting systems in the world work. Where, for example, in America, different states have different number of numbers of votes, depending on how many people to have, whatever.
Taimur
Yeah, true. Yeah, stratified sampling is essentially like, a way to account for the fact that there are sort of different subgroups within a population, right. And this stratified sampling thing was an absolute game changer for me. This was the first
Ali
We realized there were groups within society.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Nice. Now, this was the first like, this was the first time, I had an intuitive understanding of a mathematical concept. So stratified stratified sampling, sort of underlying, you know, mental model, if you want to call it that with the underlying concept is, is the concept of like a weighted average, right, or a weighted sum, where you use sort of adding up a bunch of things, and giving a bit more importance to some things than others. So for example, if there's loads of old people who give a bit more importance to which way they're going to vote compared to the young people, right. And so it's this idea of like a weighted average, a weighted sum. And this was the first time where maths wasn't just this sort of numbers on a page thing that we're just manipulating. It actually had sort of an intuitive. Intuitive is the wrong word, but it had like a meaningful interpretation in real life. And so the idea was that, like, you know, if you give something a higher weight in this weighted average, weighted sum, then you're you're kind of giving it more importance. And this was the first time where my understanding of the thing wasn't that, Oh, we've learned this definition of stratified sampling. Here's how you do stratified sampling. I'm going to, like, regurgitate this in exam. My understanding was, it's weird, because I, you know, I feel like when you understand something, you actually don't need the definition for it, when you understand it, you you can conjure the definition based on your understanding of it. And so the understanding is that, you know, you're, it's like this weight, weighted by importance or something. And from that, if they ask you about stratified sampling in the exam, you can describe what it is because you understand it. And that was the first time that there was this sort of what I'd say, like actual understanding of a math's concepts for me. And that, like, completely changed, changed the game.
Ali
Change your life.
Taimur
Changed my life.
Ali
Nice.
Taimur
And that kind of got me thinking, Well, we've talked about this kind of stuff. Before on the podcast, I had this blog post I wrote a while ago, about sort of understanding things at different levels of abstraction. Do you remember this Ali?
Ali
Different levels of abstraction? I don't specifically remember the thing that you wrote about it. But it's a concept I think about a lot when it comes to teaching medical students, like that.
Taimur
Okay, cool. Yeah, I think we maybe we've touched on this on the podcast. But essentially, is weird because I was thinking about this statistics class last week. And then this week, a fantastic post was published by one of my twitter mutuals. A guy called Nabeel Qureshi.
Ali
Nabeel Qureshi?
Taimur
Sorry? Not that one.
Ali
Okay, no, yeah, he's dead.
Taimur
He's dead. May he rest in peace. It's a post called How to Understand Things. And this was doing the rounds on Twitter a few days ago. And it was on the front page of Happy News Today, and it still is on the front page of Happy News. And this is all kind of there's a few sections to the post, I'll kind of talk about each of the main points, and then maybe we can explain it, then we can think about it. So the first point is really interesting. This is a real cracker of a post, we'll post a link, you should definitely follow this guy. And I'll link to his his profile as well. Nabeel says, the smartest person I've ever known, had a habit that's as a teenager, I found striking. After he'd prove a theorem or solve the problem, he'd go back and continue thinking about the problem and try to figure out different proofs of the same thing. Sometimes he spent hours on a problem he'd already solved. I had the opposite tendency, as soon as I'd reached the end of the proof, I'd stopped since I'd gotten the answer. And Nabeel builds up to a very interesting point, which is that this thing that we call intelligence is as much about things like honesty and integrity and bravery as it is about raw intellect. And so you're a big fan of like, talking about intelligence or whatever, and you're big on the whole, like IQ thing. And in discussions about intelligence, we, we almost always equate it to something like IQ, where it's like something you can test in this particular way. What Nabeel is saying is that one thing that he's found in people who he thinks are smart, intelligent, whatever, is, in his words, they aren't willing to accept answers that they don't understand.
Ali
So he's saying that if you don't get a popular culture reference, then you flag that up.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly.
Ali
Nice.
Taimur
He's saying that people who he thinks are smart, intelligent, tend not to sort of accept things until they completely understand them. And completely understanding it is often a case of kind of banging your head against something in many different ways, until it really actually clicks. And why and he's saying that this is actually a software trait rather than a hardware trait. It's not like the sort of IQ, a definition of intelligence, it's more of like a hardware thing that's trying to test of like, How fast can this person think? How much stuff can they memorize? This kind of stuff it's like, you know, it's trying to get at this idea of some, you know, hardwired thing called intelligence, what Nabeel is saying is that, sure that's part of it. But a big part of it is also just your kind of intellectual integrity and honesty and bravery, when it comes to facing concepts you don't understand. And so and this is like a learnable trait, every one of us can, you know, you know, if we don't understand something, we can keep banging our head against the same problem until we actually understand it, regardless of like, what your IQ may be, or whatever. And he's saying that, yeah, intelligence is not fixed, despite what many people try and claim nowadays, I think. So that was his first point. I think that's pretty interesting. And this is, this is another thing. It's so weird when you come across a post like this that just like touches on loads of things that you've been thinking about recently. The other thing I was thinking about recently, I think I had a Twitter draft of this is a tweet draft sitting around, which is that I found that my my maths friends, my friends who studied maths seem to have a much higher bar for when they will claim to have understood something than everyone else. And so for example, yeah, I ran into this at university, I think at University at the start of university, I had a very low bar for when I when I think I understood something, because actually, during most of school, I don't think I understood anything, really. And that'd be that'd be a bunch of occasions in first year, where we'd be like, talking, we like studying something. And yeah, that'd be like a group of us studying together, whatever. And someone would say, like, hey, do you? Do you get this thing? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, I get this thing. It's like, blah, blah, blah. And then they asked, like a follow up question, but I guess I didn't get this thing. And I found, I mean, even recently says, this was an interesting experiment, as I was trying to learn a new thing. Recently, a couple of weeks ago, I was trying to teach myself about accounting, and the different kind of principles and accounting and stuff like that. And I have some friends who have studied a bit of accounting, maybe as part of their degree or part of their job or whatever. And so I was trying to, like, really get to the bottom of some accounting concepts. And I asked about, I asked bunch people, like, hey, do you? Do you want to understand what the point of cash flow statement is, or whatever? And I got the impression that a lot of them gave the answer I would have given in first year of university of like, yeah, I understand what it is. And then, you know, they can sort of recite the definition or something. But then when you kind of drill down into it of like, Okay, why is that the case like me what motivates this definition, then, it's just not really there. And so that was something I'm thinking about, which is that like, it feels like different subjects lend themselves to kind of understanding things in different ways. And I'm getting off on a personal tangent here, we will get back to the post. But this is all it's all like the same. It's all the same idea, really. But yeah, one of one of the frustrations I had at school was that it didn't feel like we could ever really understand most of what we were learning, right? So for example, in biology or something, they'll tell you that, Oh, this is how a cell works. And it has this thing. And then it has the chlorophyll to do the photosynthesis to eat the air eat the sunlight, kind of thing.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
They tell you something like that. And there wasn't really, it didn't feel like you know, you basically just had to take their word for it. You kind of had to accept, okay, I guess the chlorophylls do eat the sunlight, right? You basically had to accept that. If you also follow up question of like, oh, why? Or how or whatever, you probably wouldn't get an answer, A because it's not unlike the syllabus or whatever. And B, I suspect, you just do require like a ton of groundwork before you can actually get the true real answer for how these things work. And my impression was that this was the case in biology for sure. I didn't study, I dropped chemistry. After GCSE, I didn't study at A level but I got the I got the impression that in A level chemistry, they basically told you to forget every, all the other chemistry you've learned and start over from a new set of rules or something like that. And so like, if you're a GCSE level, you know, if you're like 16 learning chemistry, and you're learning about something and you start asking questions about like, you know, why does this work that way? How does it actually work? You actually can't get to a reasonable answer, like you haven't learned the stuff that would get you an actual answer to that question. And so there's, there's no deeper level of understanding to be had, you just got to accept these things as like surface level claims, and you rattle them off and exam and that's the subject until A level maybe or university maybe. And so if that like, yeah, I think I very quickly got to the point where I was like, okay, we're not really going to understand any of this stuff. And that's just how it's got to be. I think maths was slightly different in that, most of the stuff you learn in secondary school maths, you can actually completely understand from the ground up. Like, it doesn't require sort of massive amounts of foundation to understand, you know how this concept works. And so I think that's, that's partly why I like maths but yeah I think, alright, I'm gonna stop talking for a second. Do you have any thoughts? I have lots more to say.
Ali
No, I have nothing to add.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
Please continue.
Taimur
Okay, great.
Ali
I'm enjoying myself here.
Taimur
Okay, so I basically went through the whole of school. Not really, ever having understood anything, I think I was pretty good at, you know, reciting, and recalling facts and, you know, rattling out different methods that we learned for different circumstances. It's pretty good at doing that. But I don't think I really actually understood much. This statistics thing, stratified sampling, I didn't understand. That was great. But yeah, apart from that, I didn't really understand anything. And so when I go to university, in first year, I basically had the same mindset that I had in school, where I thought, if you understand something, it means that you can sort of recall the definition or whatever, and maybe like manipulate some symbols on a page to like, solve a math equation or something. That that was my idea of what it means to understand something. And so I went through most of first year, kind of thinking, yeah, this sort of makes sense. Kind of weird, kind of weird, but it sort of makes sense. And I feel like about half of the year group was in the same bucket as me, they had this idea of like, you know, this is what it means to understand something. And this is kind of the level we're playing at. But the other half were like, definitely in a completely different league, they were just playing a different ballgame. And I realized this when it came to revising for first year exams, I was revising one of my friends. And we would, he was trying to help me understand the proof for a particular theorem in maths at school, the, in our lecture notes, it was called the scenic viewpoint theorem. It's a it's called.
Ali
SVT.
Taimur
The SVT. The, it's sort of like the main part of the proof of another theorem called the Bolzano–Weierstrass Theorem, which is like, really, every, like, first year math person learns this thing, right? And so we were trying to, he was trying to help me understand this thing. And for the life of me, I just, yeah, I just couldn't quite get my head around it. I kept getting sort of lost in like the math notation and getting confused by things and when he asked me, okay, so when you think about this thing, like what's, what's the picture you have in your head when you think about this thing? And I was like, Whoa, what are you talking about? What are you talking about picture.
Ali
Got some letters and numbers in my head.
Taimur
Yeah. And like, I didn't have any picture in my head for this thing. I didn't have any picture in my head for any of that stuff. But it turned out that after he drew like a few squiggles on the board, like a really simple picture, that that picture encapsulated, basically, what the, what the whole point of the theorem was. And if you could remember that picture, you could derive the proof really easily just in your head, in the same way that if you understood, at its core, what like a weighted sum is or what stratified sampling is, you could then derive the definition in an exam when you need to do and this idea of like having sort of pictures in your head to explain concepts. This was like an absolute game changer. Like, I couldn't believe it. This guy had pictures of his head all along, and nobody told me, and part of me was like, Whoa, this is seriously worrying. Because we have exams coming up, and I don't understand anything, it was also worrying because I thought I understood it. Actually, until that point, I did not know what it felt like to understand the concept. And I suspect most people go through their entire education without actually getting to that point, I think I was fortunate that I got to that point, because like, my friend kind of helped me get there. And I was studying maths where like, it's quite important to get there. I feel like you can go an awful long time without actually getting there. The other frustrating thing was that it felt like someone should have told me this. Someone should have sat me down when I was like, 12 or something? Or if not that, 16? If not that at the start of university saying, right? This is what it means to learn something and understand something, right. If you can do this, that means you sort of understand that concept. No one really did that. And that feels kind of important.
Ali
Okay, I have a few thoughts now. The first one is just just on that point. If If I were talking to you sort of halfway through first year.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And I were afraid to you know, we were doing that Fineman technique of explain it to a friend explain it to a five year old.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Would you have been able to explain stuff to a five year old?
Taimur
No, probably not.
Ali
Okay. And then after understanding the picture thing, would you have then been able to.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Okay. Cuz I feel like that is like that, for me has always been the litmus test ever since I first discovered this in second year when we actually had a lecture about learning techniques and, and I had a similar experience like what Why is no one ever told me this, which kind of is what sparked my whole interest in psychology and the psychology of learning which ultimately spoke the YouTube channel and all of that sort of stuff. So I had to kind of put that in there. Two things come to mind of similar experiences I had. The first was the quadratic equation formula.
Taimur
Yeah. I know.
Ali
(UNCLEAR) my As b plus or minus v squared over two A.
Taimur
Yep.
Ali
Is that, is that right?
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's right.
Ali
Nice. And initially, I came across it, because sort of, you know, back when we were in ESX, we're doing sort of like slightly high level maths and the quadratic equation had come up. And there wasn't there was this formula for solving any quadratic equation. But when I was in year eight, I remember first coming across the proof of that, and it wasn't sort of in a, it wasn't as it wasn't, you know, this is the proof kind of thing. It was we were doing this thing, then this thing this sort of maths worksheets that we used to do called kumon. Back in the day.
Taimur
Good times.
Ali
Absolutely fantastic times, and they had sort of the, there's all sorts of different methods for solving quadratic equations, there's like, making up numbers out of thin air and hoping that they stick and then there's like completing the square. And then the third one is this formula. And so there were loads of questions on completing the square. But using real numbers and using algebra, and the final question of the worksheet was ax squared plus bx plus c equals zero.
Taimur
Nice.
Ali
So by completing the square, and I was like, Whoa, that's epic.
Taimur
Mind blowing.
Ali
And then I sort of worked through this, and I can't remember, you know, my, my rose tinted memory likes to think that I came up with the thing.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
But either way, when I got when I ultimately got to the quadratic formula, I felt like I think in my mind, like, oh, my goodness, like, this is not just some random ass formula at some dude, makeup made up this is this actually makes perfect sense based on all of these principles that we've used before. So that was my first real kind of understanding of it. And then I went up to a math teacher the following, it was like, Hey, you know, we're doing the quadratic formula. Do you mind if I, if I, you know, prove it on the on the board? And he was like, alright.
Taimur
You offered to prove it on the board.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
In class?
Ali
Yeah. And I explained it to the class and everyone's like, okay, that's, that's kind of cool.
Taimur
Oh, nice.
Ali
10 points to that. 10 points to Gryffindor. The second is, was actually in in chemistry. So I don't know how much chemistry up to GCSE. But if you're familiar with the concept of a mole?
Taimur
I never really understood it. But yeah, I can probably use the definition.
Ali
Okay. Yeah. So the concept of a mole is one of those things that you you either memorize the definition and a formula, or you intuitively understand it.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And this was something that we started to teach a lot. And I'd be mapped crash courses, is that often sort of, in section two of the B math, you've got like six or seven chemistry questions, a lot of getting a high score in the B math rest, and you being able to solve these very, very quickly, which comes from having an intuitive understanding of the chemistry rather than of having to rely on formula.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
So for example, the sort of relying on formula method of approaching a mole would be like, you know, a question would say, you've got one mole of carbon added to whatever you know, and something happens. The the sort of you and first, your way of understanding that is thinking, Okay, I've got this formula.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Moles equals mass over MR. Okay, therefore, if I have one mole of carbon, and I'm gonna look, I know the MR of carbon is 12. So one times 12. Okay, got 12 grams of carbon. That's how you think about it. When you have an intuitive understanding of moles, you see one mole of carbon and you think 12 grams, because you just know that that is what the mole is, right? And you feel it in your heart, the thing weve been saying on courses, and we'd always get a lot from the students being like, you feel this deep down.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And I think like that was the other sort of simple example that I I remember experiencing when I first understood moles. And then when I was explaining it to other people that once you explain it in the right way, you feel the click in someone else's mind as they then intuitively understand the concept. And now everything becomes easier because this mole is not a random ass thing. Like what the what the hell is mole? It's like, Oh, it's 16 grams of oxygen, not 12 grams of carbon like I get what it is. Those are my, my thoughts. Please continue.
Taimur
Yeah, the mole thing. I never really intuitively understood that. In chemistry. I think we had to do a bit of that GCSE. Never really got it to be honest. And then yeah, there was there was a bunch of stuff. I have fought it I get. Yes, that's how far I got.
Ali
So basically, I explained like and five you said you discovered the power of pictures.
Taimur
Yeah, the power. So I think they explain like, I'm five thing is really good. I the pictures thing is really good separately. Because a picture is just like a really.
Ali
Some say worth a thousand words.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah, that's the basically I was gonna say. I was gonna say it's a really efficient representation of something.
Ali
I do apologize.
Taimur
Yeah, so like, yeah, I think, I think part of when you know, you kind of intuitively understand something, is where you have like, uh, okay, bear with bear with me here. All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and paint a picture that may or may not make sense. So like, when you're learning something, right? You you're kind of building up this sort of map in your head or whatever. And you have like these, these dots in your head of different like things, different concepts, some of these dots might start to connect as you kind of connect the concepts. But it, it feels very heavy, it feels like there's a lot you have to remember, if this whole structure feels very brittle, that like it can, it can break at any moment. And like it's really heavy and you're kind of trying to hold this up. While these definitions these concepts, how they're linked together and stuff like that. That's like when you don't understand something. But when you do understand something thing, it's almost as if it's almost as if there, the structure actually isn't there, it's, you know, I feel, I feel like the process of understanding something is like building up this sort of this kind of crazy, you know, thing in your head with like all these parts and it's really heavy and stuff. And then at the point where you understand it, the thing just vanishes. And you can, you can just, like conjure it up in whatever way or form you want, as you need to. And I think it really does feel like that when you really understand something because all the kind of weights and the mental burden of, of trying to store this thing in your head just disappears, because it is now just there in your, you know, in your mental models in whatever you want to call it. It's just there somewhere, and you can recall it in whatever form you need.
Ali
So, almost like when you're learning a language, you're struggling to remember the stuff but then once you once you've learnt the language, it's like, you know, you and I don't have any sort of construct for English grammar anymore, or more. What is the nominative and accusative and declarative case even mean? It's not a thing. Yeah, you're doing the talking.
Taimur
Like you're not like intentionally conjugating the verb. Okay. Run is like this kind of verb. And the rule is like I ran, you run, he ran, you know, this kind of stuff.
Ali
Thankfully, lots of friends of mine who are like super good at music. See music in this sort of sense, where I'm still thinking, I vaguely understand some musical theory.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And so if I, as long as I'm playing the piano, in the scale of D, I can kind of, you know, comfortably do stuff with my fingers and like, things will be alright.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
But then, you know, I see some of my friends from university and the stuff that they can do on a piano. I'm like, how are you doing that?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And it they just have such an understanding of it.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
It doesn't even matter what he's referencing, right. What's going on?
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just like a completely different representation the head? See, I think, yeah, that was one thing I was mentioned that like this, this feeling of understanding something. It's weird. And it seems bizarre, but like, when you really understand it, you no longer need to like remember it, you no longer it no longer takes, like what any work to store this thing in your head. It's like a very specific feeling.
Ali
Um, I think there are certain there are certain exceptions to this, I think with a lot of very complicated things. The the clarity that you get from finally understanding it is, is not necessarily permanent. So anyone who's done a PhD in math, for example, the know that sort of three weeks after you submitted he probably won't be able to understand your your thesis.
Taimur
Right. Yeah, sure.
Ali
Because you need to have such a, a certain representation of like, all of the things even understand what you're talking about.
Taimur
Yeah. 100%
Ali
In medicine, like often with a lot of sort of complex complex like neuroscience type topics. You, once you've understood it, once you have that moment of clarity, and then next week, you've you've forgotten it again, but at least now you know what steps you need to take in order to re understand it, you can kind of talk someone else through those steps.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, I think like, once you once you once you've like, found the this, like efficient representation, you know, you'll forget it and stuff. But you can rediscover that efficient representation without going through the whole process all over again. So I think, yeah, I think that that's a very like, nice feeling. Right back to back into Nabeel's post.
Ali
By the way, if you want to get some of that nice feeling, go to skillshare.com/notoverthinking.
Taimur
So the first point that Nabeel was making was that this, you know, thinking about intelligence, as like a fixed thing, which is, you know, related to how fast we think, or whatever you want to call it. It's not quite right, because a lot of what he's seen in the smartest people that he knows, is that their smartness or whatever, it just comes from making sure they really actually understand something. And he says that he's actually noticed that these hardware traits are very greatly in the smartest people that he knows hardware traits, like, you know, how fast you are thinking and calculating and reading. He says that some some of the smartest people are really fast to this stuff. Some are really slow. But the thing that they will have in common is, yeah, the kind of intellectual honesty and integrity and bravery to actually make sure they really understand something before moving on. It moves on to say, Sorry, you got to say something?
Ali
I think that makes a lot of sense. I've also sort of been thinking about this in the context of sort of these these recent books I've been reading about, like moral and social psychology and stuff.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
I sort of after listening to the book, I'm like, Okay, I think I understand that, but then, I think could actually explain this to a five year old. And that I think, no until, unless and until sort of from from memory, I can build the case up from the build a case from the ground up and explain to someone else exactly what the thought process is as to why they should believe that there are six maltase receptors, for example, at that point, I haven't really understood it. And so what I'm doing now is once I read a book, I'm making sure that I sort of am distilling my thoughts and writing it down and revisiting it at different points. Just to kind of solidify that in in my brain.
Taimur
Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, that's something I try and do as well when I'm learning some new kind of theory style stuff. Oh, yeah, there was one point that I mentioned that I wanted to kind of explain a bit more, I think I said that, like, I found that my maths friends have a higher bar for when they'll claim to have understood something than most other people. And this might just be me being like biased, given that sort of maths is what I'm experienced in and that kind of stuff. But I feel like different subjects actually have this sort of quality to different degrees, depending on the stage you're at. I feel like you know, in as a 10 year old you can reach, you know, you can reach an actual understanding of various things in the maths curriculum, whereas I think as a 10 year old is extremely difficult to reach an actual understanding of something on the chemistry curriculum. Is that accurate? Would you say?
Ali
Yeah, it seems.
Taimur
Yeah. And so.
Ali
But I think actual understanding still depends on how it depends on the layers of abstract, right.
Taimur
Yeah, there's, there's, there's like, there's definitely layers. Yeah. And and this, this is something that Nabeel mentions that there's basically infinite layers to this stuff. But I think it's worth, I think it's worth saying that, like, there is like not understanding it. And then there, there are layers to understanding it. And, for example, actually, another interesting thing that came out, I think in like second or third year of university, I can't remember exactly how it came up. But I had this moment where I finally understood addition and multiplication into a greater degree than I ever had before
Ali
In your second or third year of university?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Tell me more.
Taimur
I can't say but I can't remember the.
Ali
Can't remember addition and multiplication.
Taimur
I can't remember exactly like, what the insight was. But but something came up. And I was like, Whoa, addition and multiplication is like that. And, you know, I felt like I'm, I'm a couple of layers deep and understanding addition and multiplication, for like someone who, you know, is unlike a PhD in number theory, or group theory, or something like that, is probably like 10 layers deeper than I am about understanding what the hell addition and multiplication mean. So, there's definitely like, okay, that's, I think that's another thing about maths is that, you kind of, you just, you're sort of faced with the fact that there are lots and lots of layers to understanding every concepts. And there there is genuinely like, almost an endless amount of depth in almost everything that you learn in maths. And that's, that's almost just by definition, like, the whole field is just people like overthinking stuff, and like pushing the field forward. And so there's just an incredible amount of, of actual depth that into which you can understand stuff. And again, I probably don't know enough about the other fields to say this, but I feel like, it feels like it's not quite the same. In other fields, like you'll hit, you'll hit a wall a lot more quickly, of like, you know, what more is there for me to understand here kind of thing. And maybe partly because we actually just don't know some of this stuff. So imagine in physics, you know, you can ask why a bunch of times, and eventually you'll get you know pretty soon, with a lot of things you'll get to like, well, we're trying to figure it out. Like, yeah, so I think there's a graviton that produces gravity.
Ali
Math is almost entirely an arbitrary abstract field, right?
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah.
Ali
And that is a bunch of usually dudes making up a bunch of things as they go along.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And then defining those terms as being kind of the things that are discovered. Whereas in a lot of other fields, they're trying to get at some, some idea of what truth is, right? And so for physics, you can sort of create the theory of Oh, I reckon there's this thing called a Graviton. And then you test it against, you know, does this explain various random phenomena that we see equally in social sciences and stuff, like you're trying to get some kind of representation of why people behave the way that they do? Why society is the way that it is, which inherently does not have an infinite layer, infinite number of layers of understanding, although it probably does have an infinite number of layers of abstraction. Like, for example, he, you can say that you understand the core tenets of human behavior, you understand that people are driven towards, I don't know, survival and reproduction.
Taimur
True.
Ali
Which is kind of understanding that a one at one level kind of going deeper, you could talk about individuals with a society going deeper than that you could talk about individual neuron neurons in the brain going deeper than that. You can talk about the biochemical interactions, different neurons, there's sort of depending on how granular you go, you're gonna go,
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
But ultimately, I think it would be fair to say, for a 10 year old to say, I understand that human nature is geared towards survival and reproduction, because that's an entirely reasonable thing. And you can't understand it at that level of abstraction. Right?
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah, I agree that, yeah, I don't want to like, draw comparisons between fields and stuff, because I don't really know enough about anything.
Ali
Yeah, I thought you're gonna say that you didn't want to disparage 10 year olds. That seems like the sort of thing you would say.
Taimur
I wasn't disparaging 10 year olds.
Ali
You're saying I feel like a 10 year old doesn't have any understanding of of anything?
Taimur
No, don't say that.
Ali
I thought you said that in context, like.
Taimur
I said in the context, I was very particular I said in the in the context of your school curriculum.
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
I wasn't.
Ali
I'm sorry. I wasn't disparaging either. My apologies.
Taimur
I was disparaging the school curriculum.
Ali
Excellent. Yeah, like reformed.
Taimur
Yeah, let's move away from making comparisons between fields. But I think it's, I think it's worth most people studying maths to various degrees, just to just to like understand, like, what it means to like really understanding a concept. Alright, back to the post, Nabeel says this quality of not stopping at an unsatisfactory answer deserves some examination. He thinks one part of this not stopping at an unsatisfactory answer is his energy. Basically, he thinks that like thinking hard about something takes a lot of energy, a lot of effort. And it's almost always easier just to like, say, Ah, yeah, I've memorized the definition, I'll be fine at the exam, you know, I kind of understand this, it's fine, let's move on, rather than going down like a million different rabbit holes to try and approach the concepts in different ways and kind of build up your model of it. And so he thinks, it's also so easy to think, yeah, he thinks it's very easy to fall into the trap that you understand something, which is exactly what I was trying to get at. And like figuring out whether you understand it takes a lot of work to kind of test your own understanding. And this requires a lot of intrinsic motivation, because it's quite hard. And he mentioned that the Nobel Prize winner, William Shockley was fond of talking about the will to think. And there's a quote from William Shockley here, who says, motivation is at least as important as method for the serious thinker. The essential element for successful work in any field is the will to think this was a phrase that he apparently learned from the nuclear physicist, Enrico Fermi. In these four words, Shockley wrote, Fermi distilled that distill the essence of a very significant insight, which is that a competent thinker will be reluctant to commit himself to the efforts that tedious and precise thinking demands, he will lack the will to think unless he has the conviction that something worthwhile will be done with the results of his efforts, basically, like, it's really hard to get to the point where you understand something, it's also hard to get to the point where you can test whether you understand something. And so unless you are really actually motivated to do it, you probably won't do it. And, yeah, he says that like this thing about like, being intrinsically motivated to want to understand a thing is quite important. Otherwise, it's just not worth the effort. And you also, to some extent, need to be quite bothered by the feeling of not understanding something. And maybe some people have a natural propensity towards that. But everyone, everyone can learn it. And Nabeel then says that this is related to honesty and integrity, a sort of compulsive unwillingness or inability to lie to yourself. Feynman said that the first rule of science is that you do not fool yourself, and you're the easiest person to fall. And it is uniquely easy to lie to yourself, because there's no external force keeping you honest. Only you can ask yourself constantly, do I really understand this thing? And Nabeel mentions that this is why writing is really important. Because if you're writing about something, it's very hard to fool yourself into thinking you understand it, because you'll find that you can't actually put it into words and expand it yourself. That was the second part. Any comments to add there?
Ali
Nope. Writing is good. We like writing.
Taimur
Yep. And part three was this point. Part three basically talks about like, how true understanding of something is, is very much related to our physical intuition for what it is. And just using words to understand something can only go so far. And you typically need to visualize something in terms of like a picture of some sort, or some kind of imagery. And he makes an interesting point that this is why Jesus spoke in parables throughout the New Testament, in ways that actually stick with you, rather than just stating abstract principles. For example, Jesus in the New Testament says, are not two sparrows sold for a cent, and yet, none of them will fall to the ground apart from your father, i.e. like, sparrows are, like really cheap, but they'll still like fly and stuff on this and God wills it otherwise. And that like sticks with you a lot more than just God watches all over all living beings, you know. And apparently, Faraday physicist was really into this kind of stuff, see a visualization, visualizing things and having like physical kind of physical understanding of abstract things is helpful. The other thing you mentioned is which you're a big fan of is the quality that he's noticed and very intelligent people is being unafraid to look stupid.
Ali
Yes, he's calling me very intelligent, nice.
Taimur
Nice. Finally, Malcolm Gladwell talks about his father in this way. My dad was a public intellectual/author, writer kinda guy. And apparently, Malcolm talks about his father saying, if he doesn't understand something, he just asks you, he doesn't care if he sounds foolish. He will ask the most obvious question without any sort of concern about it. If my father had met Bernie Madoff, he would never have invested money with him. Because he would have said I don't understand 100 times. I don't know who Bernie Madoff is.
Ali
No, me either. That you signaling your ignorance?
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. Look how ignorant I am. I'd say I, he mentioned that most people are actually just not willing to look stupid. And this takes courage. And this is good. I feel I feel like this this is something that I've started to experience a lot over the past few years. And Nabeel says it's striking how many situations he's in, where he starts asking basic questions and feeling kind of guilty for like slowing the group down. And then it turns out that nobody actually understood what was going on to begin with. But he was the only one who actually sort of spoke up and said something you're big on this one?
Ali
Yeah, maybe this was like my life in med school.
Taimur
Nice. Yeah, this is a habit, it's easy to pick up but it makes you smarter Nabeel says.
Ali
I agree with that.
Taimur
Right. The next section is about specifically about how derivatives differentiation is explained to us with this like dy, dx notation, right? I won't get too into that. Okay. Yeah, no, so this point here is that, okay, so if you if you studied maths in, you know, school, like age 17, or 18, you'll probably learn about a concept called differentiation. And you'll probably see some symbols on a page that look a bit like a fraction, and the fraction is dy over dx. And you'll be told that this is a derivative. And you can apply this to like a function to differentiate and things like this. And then you'll learn about something called the chain rule, which is a way to differentiate certain kinds of functions. And you might learn what you'll be told as a proof of the chain rule, where you, like, we won't get into it, it's not that important. Essentially, most, most people are like age 17, or 18, are taught a proof of the chain rule, which isn't really a proof. It's manipulating some symbols in a way that happens to work out nicely. But it's not really that legit. Unfortunately, it takes a while to, like, properly, rigorously prove prove this thing. And that, like, time is not something that you have during the school curriculum, because you have to like, learn this method and move on to the next thing. And so even if you see this proof of the chain rule, you're like, Huh, this is pretty weird. These things aren't really fractions. Why can we just like multiply both sides by dx?
Ali
Oh, yes. I used to be really pissed off about this. Right? I remember the feeling frustration, like we surely were not allowed to do it. Yeah. So the dx is cancelled out? How did the dx cancel out? Like, come on?
Taimur
Right? Yeah. So yeah, there's like a bunch of hand waving to try and like, you know, it's like Jedi mind trick of like, these aren't the droids you're looking for? The teacher kind of waves that over you.
Ali
Where did the dx disappear?
Taimur
Yeah. So they kind of do that. But like, you know, if you do want to understand it more deeply, your choices are, okay, do this in my free time. And, yeah, maybe you're that into it. And you'll do it in your free time or require you learning a bunch of stuff, or like, try and get the teacher to sort of explain to the whole class, the teacher has their own priorities, they have a curriculum, they need to teach, they have like, deadlines, they have to meet, they have to go home to their families go to all that kind of stuff. And so just by the whole setup of the system, you know, through. No, no one's fault in the classroom. It's kind of hard to actually get to the bottom of that.
Ali
On that note, when when we were learning differentiation and doing the whole dy by dx. That was when I started writing a y without the the hook on the end of it. And I felt so cool. Because I'd be writing dy and sort of over and it feels really cool writing y without doing that, the hook, so you got like dy/dx, and if you feel like legend, d y,
Taimur
Okay, y as in like a as in flipped mu, like mu but flipped.
Ali
Mu but flipped?
Taimur
Right.
Ali
Yeah. Except without the extra hook.
Taimur
Okay, yeah, just.
Ali
And now and that that is now how right my y.
Taimur
Okay. Yes.
Ali
Well done. You.
Taimur
Thank you.
Ali
I'm just bringing this conversation down to a level that I can I can understand.
Taimur
Oh, that's great. And so yeah, Nabeel says that the the meta question, sorry, the meta lesson that you learn in school is that you should is that you can't really question things too deeply. Because you'll fall behind. And you just have to learn the algorithm, plug in the numbers and pass your exams speed is of the essence. And so he says the school kind of kills the will to understanding and people. And his advice is, when you're trying to understand something, go slowly, just go really slow, spend a lot of time thinking about the thing before like you start getting into the meat of it. Like start building up your own sort of mental model for the thing in your head before you read a textbook and someone tells you the mental model or whatever. And this starts to touch on one of my favorite theories constructionism. Have we talked about this on the podcast?
Ali
Do you mean the summoning around in a maze and then you turn the flashlight on?
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. All right.
Ali
I don't think we've called it constructionism before constructivism, constructionism?
Taimur
Constructionism.
Ali
It's it's sounds very fancy because it got ism at the end of it, so it must be legit. Right?
Taimur
Okay. I think this is a good time to get into it. Basically,
Ali
Sure. It's like quarter past midnight.
Taimur
This is fine, man.
Ali
Okay, fine.
Taimur
That's Feynman. All right. I'm just gonna bring up my blog post. So I did about a year ago, year and a few months ago. I did a talk at a conference. About constructionism, and my, my vision for the future of learning was the thought leader back in the day. And the concept behind I think, I think the mental model most of us have in our heads of how people learn things and how things are taught is, is that, you know, people are sort of empty vessels, the ready to be filled with knowledge. And in a classroom, every student is like a, an empty little vase. And the teacher is like pouring the knowledge into into all of their vases, and then they understand something, right. Is that is that roughly like the mental model that you probably had growing up?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
Right, so this is a, the people who've thought about this, they call this instructionism. And the focus, the focus in this approaches is on the teaching is on trying to, like instruct the students and like, fill their vessels better. And it's the idea that like, you know, if you fill these vessels in the right way, by the right teacher at the right time, then like, the student will have understood something or learn something. And we talked about knowledge as being something that's like passed down from generations to generations, like transmitted from one person to the other, as if like, I have this thing and I can like, throw it, throw it to you. And now you've got this thing. And like your policy, this isn't really how it works. I think a better a better sort of framework or mental model, think about this, is that we don't learn something through transmission, we learn something by reconstruction, we don't like copy paste knowledge from the teachers head into our own. Instead, we have to like reconstruct the knowledge from the ground up in our own way in our own heads for us to actually understand something. This is what constructionism comes from is a reconstructing this thing. And there's a metaphor, which I think is pretty good. I came up with, I'll just, I'll just read my read an excerpt from my blog post. We'll link to it in the show notes. I call this the dark room metaphor. Darkroom is a game we used to play.
Ali
Oh, yeah? Haven't played that in years.
Taimur
Great game. All right.
Ali
That was like the best time you'd be like hanging out having a session. So I want to be like, let's play Darkroom.
Taimur
They got a feeling
Ali
This feeling of euphoria when someone's said Darkroom. I get that feeling that when someone suggests to articulate if someone other than me, yes, lads, here we go.
Taimur
Nice. Alright, so I'll just read an excerpt from our blog post. Learning something new is like exploring a room, you don't really know anything to begin with. So the room is pitch black, you study walk through fumbling around, you bump into things, you trip over things, you're not sure exactly what the things are. But you can fill out their shapes, you slowly build up a map of the room in your head, eventually you find the light switch and turn it on and everything comes together, it will make sense. That's one way to find out what's in the room. Another way is for someone to take a picture of what's inside and just show you, on the face of it, this accomplishes the same thing much faster, you get to know what's in the room. But in reality, this understanding is much more brittle. Chances are, if someone showed you a picture of the same room from a different angle, for example, you wouldn't recognize it. And this is one way to think about constructionism. By exploring the room on your own, you build up your own sort of 3D model of it in your head. And you can freely manipulate this model as you require. Whereas if all you've seen is a picture, and this is what instructionism is close to this is what the sort of empty vessel framework is close to. If all you've seen is a picture, you can't actually use that knowledge in the same way. And so one of the big kind of principles of constructionism guy called Seymour Papert was really big on this visionary. He thinks it's really important to learn through making. One of the ideas is that learning happens best through experience, and actually sort of doing or making something. It's better to explore the room in my metaphor, because you're actively engaged in the experience and developing your own mental model of it. And so, yeah, there's various like, I'll get I'll give this example. This is a this is a cute example, Papert developed a computer program called Logo. I think we had this on the school computers, but we didn't notice very much. Basically, logo is an educational programming language that lets you program a turtle on the screen to draw out whatever path you want. And so you can like program this turtle to move in a circle, and then it will have drawn a circle. And you will have like, programmed the circle on the screen, right? As I was often taught as part of like maths and computing courses at school. And Seymour Papert who invented this thing, he once got a letter from a girl in Costa Rica who used logo to draw a picture of a bird. And she sent him a photo of it clearly meant something to her since she went through the trouble of sending it to America from Costa Rica. Now, if you'd asked this girl what she was doing, she probably wouldn't have said I'm programming a computer. And she also wouldn't have said, I'm doing mathematics, she would have said something like, Oh, I'm making a bird or I'm making a picture to send to America. But if you look at what this girl was actually doing, she was you know, very much doing mathematics and programming and that kind of stuff. But sort of, in this sort of constructionist approach, it's, uh, you know, you kind of creating something that's meaningful for you. And so, yeah, to kind of really understand something you should try and sort of make something out of it.
Ali
I'm gonna start using this when when people are like, how do I learn to code?
Taimur
Right.
Ali
But if you're like take a constructionist constructionist approach and make your own website.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And in the process of doing so you'll learn how to code.
Taimur
Yeah. And then the other thing is that learning should be like, you should learn in a personal way. And the experience should be personal to each learner. Now, like the girl drew a bird, because she wanted to draw a bird, it was like meaningful to her for some reason. And so the underlying mental model that she developed while doing this will have a certain it will be imbued with a certain meaning and significance. If every student in the class was forced to draw like the same bird, most of them would probably see it as like, Oh, why you have to draw a bird. Fine, I'll do some maths, fine, okay. Whereas if you can sort of draw whatever you want, then you're getting much more engaged, you're actually going to sort of develop a different kind of understanding. And this is, this is another thing that this is another this touches on a concept that I've seen crop up in a few different places, and a few different kind of theories of kind of abstract things in general, which is that I feel like the the default model for how our brains work is that we have like the, we have, like the intellectual side and the emotional side, we have like the thinking part, and then the feeling part, when actually, these two things are like very much intertwined. And, like having emotional associations are like, you know, fairly central to how we actually understand things and are representations of things in our heads. So this thing of like, feeling and thinking is like can be separate things, not really the case. And again, in this case, like the gold or the bird, because it was meaningful to her, there's some like emotional significance there. And that sort of helps the learning.
Ali
Yeah, I think this constructionism stuff is really, really cool. I think about it a fair bit in the context of, again, music theory, which is one of those kind of, I feel like it's, it's, it's sort of like maths, in that a lot of the things are very, very arbitrary. And we all we all have some level of intuitive understanding of what sounds good and what doesn't sound right. And what people like John Mayer famously do to like he made, he actually did a lot of like Instagram lives and stuff, where he just kind of gives impromptu guitar lessons. And his his spiel is always that like, Don't don't worry about music theory, create your own music theory.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
You know, try and play the songs that you're hearing on the radio, try and make your own songs. And in doing so you will build up, you will construct your own mental model of music theory, and then you won't have to sit down and I want to learn music theory, you'll just understand that, okay, these are the notes that work nicely together. And then if you want to go into music theory, then you'll find Oh, people have actually thought about this for a long
But you'll have your own construction of it. time.
Taimur
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ali
And so that's kind of what I go back to every time I think, Hey, you know, I I'd like to write a song someday. And I've got some ideas for songs I'd like to write. But before doing so, I think I need to learn music theory. And then I fall into that trap that everyone who messages me being like, Ali, I need to learn how to code. How do I do it? It's like, look, the answer is you just make your own stuff. And it'll happen by default.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And I need to take my advice on that front.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah. This touches on another blog post in my about exploration versus something else. Do you remember how?
Ali
The exploration versus the insights? The inspiration?
Taimur
Learn by exploration, then by theory. So I think I read this. I read this a couple of months before the before I did sort of the deep dive into this constructionism stuff, and partly why I wanted to give that sort of.
Ali
Trademarks term.
My trademark term, deep dive.
Taimur
Sorry?
Right. For those of you don't know, deep dive is a series of YouTube interviews that Ali does, is that right?
Ali
Speaking of, if anyone listening to this, I feel like I want a better name for the deep dive. I really want to call it intercourse, which used to be the name of what I think in like October 2018, when I was thinking, hey, I want to start a podcast, I made a video announcing that it was going to be called intercourse. And I registered the domain name intercourse to FM. And I thought it was really frickin clever. It's one of the most proud moments of my life. And I remember messaging my girlfriend at the time being like, Hey, this is like the best thing ever. I'm gonna make a podcast called intercourse. She was like, okay, but but I still have like full pages worth of WhatsApp screenshots when I was like, you know, so excited about this idea. And everyone just absolutely shut it down, saying this is a terrible name. I sort of angry emails from teachers being like, look, I love your YouTube videos, but there's no way you know, I work in a private school, the parents would complain if I recommend to the 13 year old girls a podcast called intercourse. I was like.
Taimur
No.
Ali
But I still think it's a great name. But I feel like I want a better name than deep dive for like, sort of these long form podcast style interviews that I do on my YouTube channel. Sorry, I'm completely derailing your chat about learning theory per se, but anyone has any names. Dude, tweet me @noverthinking or send us an email hi@notoverthinking.com we'll keep an account. What are we talking about before.
Taimur
Thank you for preparing with us for the ad break.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
So saying that. Yeah, I sort of wrote about this this the thing you mentioned about like, you know, figure stuff out on your own before you decide to like try and learn the theory, or a blog post called learn by expiration then by theory.
Ali
Sorry, guys, we're still in the outbreak here.
Taimur
Nice good stuff. Good stuff.
Ali
I feel like that's what I can do in a meme. You know, the meme? Or it's like, when your friends are laughing in the group chat, you're waiting for them to laugh.
Taimur
Right? Nice. Yeah, yeah. Cuz he should like, it looks like
Ali
I was thinking of him as Sure. Sure I can do to the podium.
Taimur
Nice. I guess we'll have to post a link to that in the show notes as well.
Ali
It's gonna be fun for you.
Taimur
Yeah, so the reason I ended up doing that deep dive on constructionism was because it was something I was already thinking a lot about, and sort of started to kind of write about this stuff a bit. And then I hit up my friend who's a big, big education guy, big educator. I was like, Hey, man, I've been thinking about this stuff. What do you reckon? He's like? Yeah, it's been done before. It's called constructionism. Read these things. You like, that was cool.
Ali
But that was you being a constructionist.
Taimur
Exactly, that was precisely it. And the example I give in the, in the pre constructionism post is that like, you know, I'd been, I'd been sort of blogging for a few months, I'd written a bunch of stuff. And maybe like six or seven months into it, I decided to pick up a book about how to write better. And that book was like mind blowing. Because these concepts were already things that I sort of start to think about, I sort of started to build up my own rules and my own kind of mental framework for how to write well. And then you kind of read a book by someone who knows their stuff. And they kind of explain their way of doing it. And a lot of that will be in line with the stuff you're already thinking. And then the new stuff, you can kind of hang on to your existing sort of mental model in your head and kind of add bits on.
Ali
Anyway, I think you get the point. We talked about this for a while. It's sort of like with the with the new app like notion or something, you kind of play around with it first. And then you watch a YouTube video, and you say, Well, you know, this is how I get use the notion that's so interesting, you know, I can now do all these different things with it.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
But it's, it's less impactful if you start by watching 18 tutorials, and then you dive into it.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Dive into it, first figure out, figure things out. Because as you go along, and then you'll appreciate the insight a little bit more.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, I feel like this stuff is also really relevant to like, Causal, I'm constantly thinking about this, because one thing we're always thinking about is, how do we make it easier for new users to get started with a product. And one silver bullet that a lot of people try and recommend is like, And it can be some like, you know, really hardcore template that has like loads Oh, you guys should have like a bunch of templates. And, you know, lots of products do this, like a table in notion, something have like templates that an sort of give you inspiration for things. The thing about templates is that i 's kind of like learning the theory, before you've actually done the thing. Li e, you can look at a template in Notion or in Causal or in Ro of fancy features and does some cool stuff. But if that is your first entry into the product, it's actually not that useful, it's too overwhelming. You don't understand how and why the person who built the template got to that point where they made those decisions and stuff. And so I'm actually kind of skeptical of the templates approach for horizontal productivity tools, I think it's good for like giving people an idea of what they could use it for, for example, oh, we can use Causal for, you know, ecommerce financial model, it's good to like plant that seed in your head. But still, the best way to get started is to start off with a blank model. Well, the first, the best way is to do our onboarding. And then start off with a blank model, play around a bit. Once you kind of have constructed the concepts in your head, then check out a template and you'll be like, Whoa, okay, that's why they're doing this kind of formula and stuff like that.
Ali
I think this is partly why I always feel a little twinge of slight annoyance. Whenever I've done a YouTube video about how I use notion one way or another.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And people in the comments are like.
Taimur
Where's the template?
Ali
Where's the template? Right, and I'm like, I've literally Come on, come on, man. This is a table, you can tell that it's a table, you can tell it's got three columns.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Bigger frickin table. Like, why do you need a template link? Like, who cares? But equally equally, I can appreciate the desire for a template.
Taimur
Yeah, so I feel the same way about templates. I'm very skeptical of them. I have found myself wanting templates recently, for certain things. Mostly has it been notion, maybe it's been notion, maybe it's been Roam or something. But I think what a template can do, I think templates are a bad way to understand the concept of a product. But templates are, are a good way to, sorry that's me.
Ali
See how other people are using the thing?
Taimur
No.
Ali
Once you've understood it a little bit.
Taimur
No, no, it's better way to understand the concepts. But it's a it's a good way to get the domain knowledge. So for example, we recently set up a CRM, a customer relationship management tool at Causal, so we can track, you know, who our current customers, who are people that were talking to that we hope will become customers. And then you can kind of see various data relate to your customers, right? And there are people have been using CRM for quite a while, a couple of decades, probably, there are a set of best practices and the right way of doing things when you're setting up a CRM, you know, like, you know, you should structure your tables in this way. And you should, you know, have these fields on each user and stuff like that, right? And so if I'm new to like the whole CRM thing, there's two things I need to learn first, I need to learn the tool that I'm using, we use a tool called Atteo. Pretty cool, very early stage startup, here in London, very nice tool with a tool called Atteo as a to like learn the ins and outs of Atteo, you really kind of have to play around with it yourself. But then you're still faced with the question of like, what's the right way to set up CRM? I don't know that much about like sales and stuff. So I don't know what that is. Now, if at that point, someone can show me a template, then, like, I've understood how to use the tool, but the template is like the domain knowledge about sales and CRM that I just don't have. Does that make sense?
Ali
Yeah, that makes sense.
Taimur
So I think templates useful for that. And similarly at Causal we get some people coming up messaging us and saying like, Hey, you know, I run this business. I don't know how to set up financial model. Can you help me? I think the templates are good in that sense is because like, they have the domain knowledge about like, the right way to set up a model. But the person still needs to kind of play around with Causal themselves to understand Causal the tool.
Ali
Nice. We finished our ad break now. This was a long one.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
We've got to make sure Skillshare okay with this.
Taimur
Okay, cool. The next part in Nabeel's post is, ah, is that it's, it's very useful to get good at noticing confusion in yourself to kind of help you understand when you actually understand something, or when you're like killing yourself. There's a online forum called Less Wrong that has a series of blog posts about various abstract things and Nabeel recommends reading that. And there are a few questions that he thinks it's worth asking yourself. When you're when you're trying to think about whether you understand something, you should ask yourself, what exactly is x? What is it?
Ali
Maybe that's useful?
Taimur
Next is why must x be true? Why does this have to be the case? What is the single fundamental reason why this thing is true? This is this is something I find myself doing a lot when I was like trying to learn the accounting sort of basics of accounting. I was trying to get at like this idea of like, why did people arrive at this format of a cash flow statement and a balance sheet and an income statement? You know, why must this be the way things are done? Like what is the like, fundamental reason that motivated this thing? And this was, this was what I was trying to ask my friends who allegedly knew about this stuff. And I found that most of them weren't terribly helpful on this front. Thankfully, none of them listen to the podcast, so we're good. And then the final question he says that you should ask people is, do I really believe that this is true? Deep down? What I bet a large amount of money on it with a friend? And if you find yourself saying No, probably not, you probably don't understand the thing. Right. The next and final part, that final part.
Ali
I'm waiting for that.
Taimur
This is really good. This is great, man. All right. Nabeel mentions two parables.
Ali
Oh, what are the parables?
Taimur
I'll read out the second one. The second one is a passage from a book called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
Ali
Classic book.
Taimur
A classic, sort of.
Ali
Productivity, sort of thinking mindfulness type book.
Taimur
Yeah, I feel like it's one of those books that people like to say they've read.
Ali
I've heard about it many times.
Taimur
Yeah. It's like fight it, I did it for the games. Okay, I'm gonna read out the passage, he'd been having trouble with students who had nothing to say. At first, he thought it was laziness, but later, it became apparent that it wasn't. They just couldn't think of anything to say. One of them. A girl with strong lens glasses, wanted to write a 500 word essay about the United States. He was used to the sinking feeling that comes from statements like this, and suggested without disparagement that she narate it down to just Bozeman. I imagine that's a person or a place, I think is a place. So I think what's going on here is this some kind of teacher, writing teacher, maybe English teacher or something. student wants to write 500 words about something. She suggests that she writes it about the United States, the teacher kind of internally faced bombs, and suggests that she should narrow it down to a more focused topic, like just one place called Bozeman. Right. And when the paper came to use, she didn't have it and was quite upset. She had tried and tried, but she just couldn't think of anything to say. He had already discussed with her previous instructors and they've confirmed his impressions of her. She was very serious, very disciplined, and very hard working, but extremely dull. Not a spark of creativity in her anywhere. Her eyes behind the thick lens glasses with the eyes of a drudge. She wasn't bluffing him she really couldn't think of anything to say. And she was upset by her inability to do as she was told. It just stumped him. Now he couldn't think of anything to say a silence occurred and then a peculiar answer, narrow it down to the main streets of Bozeman. It was a stroke of insight. So he's telling her to like focus, even deeper on like the topic and write about that instead. So a single street in this town or city or whatever. She nodded beautifully and went out. But just before her next class, she came back in real distress tears, this time, distress that had obviously been there a long time. She still couldn't think of anything to say and couldn't understand why. If she couldn't think of anything about all of Bozeman, she should be able to think about something about just one street. Sorry, my mouth is getting very dry after all this talking. He was very furious. You're not looking, he said, a memory came back of his own dismissal from university for having too much to say. For every fact there is an infinite infinity of hypotheses. The more you look, the more you see. She really wasn't looking and yet somehow she didn't understand this. He told her angrily narrow it down to the front of one building on the main streets of Bozeman, the Opera House, start with the upper left hand brick, her eyes behind the thick lens glasses open wide. She came in the next class, a puzzled look and handed him a 5000 word essay on the front of the Opera House on the main street of Bozeman in Montana. I sat in the hamburger stand across the street, she said, and started writing about the first brick and the second brick, and then by the third brick, it all started to come and I couldn't stop. They thought I was crazy. And they kept kidding me. But here it is. Here it all is. I don't understand it. Neither did he but on long walks through the streets of town, he thought about it and concluded she was evidently stopped with the same kind of blockage that had paralyzed him on his first day of teaching. That's a really good, she was blocked because she was trying to repeat in her writing things that she had already heard. Just as on the first day, he had tried to repeat things he had already decided to say she couldn't think of anything to write about Bozeman, because she couldn't recall anything she had heard worth repeating about Bozeman. She was strangely unaware that she could look and see freshly for herself, as she wrote, without primary regard for what had been said before. That narrowing down to one brick destroyed the blockage because it was so obvious she had to do some original indirect seeing. And Nabeel says the point of both these parables is that nothing beats direct experience, get the data yourself. He mentioned that in trying to understand the Coronavirus. He wanted to analyze the Coronavirus genome directly. He's kind of works in sort of biology tech stuff. You develop some basis in reality by getting some first hand data and, and reasoning up from there versus starting with someone else's lossy compression of a messy evolving phenomenon. And then wondering why events keep surprising you. Yeah, this is classic constructionism stuff. This is good. I think this would be true. People who have not experienced the thing are unlikely to be generating truth, more likely their resurfacing cached thoughts and narratives. Reading popular science books or news articles is not a substitute for understanding and may make you stupider by filling your mind with narratives and stories that don't represent your own synthesis of of the thing. And even if you can't experience the thing directly, try going for information dense sources with high amounts of detail and facts. And then reason up from those facts on foreign policy read books published by university presses not to the Atlantic or the Economist. You can read those afterwards after you've developed your own model of the thing yourself. And then you sort of fit the narratives in the economist into your existing models. And finally, the parable about the bricks tells us that understanding is not a binary yes or no, it has layers of depth. Early on the post Nabeel mentioned a friend, maths friend. He says my friend understood Pythagoras theorem far more deeply than I did. He could prove it six different ways and has simply thought about it for longer. And he says the simplest things can reward close study. One example is a mathematician called Kolmogorov did a bunch of stuff. And you'd expect that okay, great mathematician like Kolmogorov would be writing about some very complicated piece of mathematics. But he actually spent quite a while just writing about the equal sign about why the equal sign is a good piece of notation. What his deficiencies were stuff like this, discussing, like in detail, the equal sign rather than anything like complex and maths. And he closes with some advice. Probably the photographer Robert Kappa, advised the beginning photographers, if your pictures aren't good enough, then you're not close enough. Probably this is good fiction writing as well. It's also good advice for understanding things. Then Nabeel says when in doubt, go closer. I think that's pretty good. I think this thing about like, you know, so much of what we do is just regurgitating things that we've seen other people say, and we've read from other people, rather than like, coming up with stuff ourselves.
Ali
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I, I, I've been thinking about this in the context of Twitter.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And I find that as you were saying that thing about kind of the original original thought I was, I was thinking that yeah, I feel like a lot of anytime I feel stuck in my writing or something. It's because I'm trying to figure out you know, what, have I heard on the grapevine that I can then repurpose in my own way and stuff?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And when I when I need to, I feel like one way that I get myself into the more original mindset is ironically, by imagining that I'm not myself. I actually imagined that I am our mutual friend Visa on Twitter, coming up with some kind of tweet, thread insight and thinking, Okay, I've now given myself permission to sort of just kind of opine on a few things that I'm just randomly coming up with and just sort of making connections with stuff or randomly seeing the world. And that's fine, because I'm not actually being me. I'm pretending to be someone else while doing it. And then I think ah, okay, if I practice this enough,
Taimur
What would Visa do?
Ali
Then that'll be more of the sort of thing that I would do?
Taimur
No, that's pretty interesting.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
So why don't you see it as like, part of your identity to be able to come up with stuff on your own? Why do you have to channel a Singaporean dude? Whose tweets you've read in order to do this?
Ali
I think it's, I think it's just another facet of imposter syndrome. It's the idea that who am I to come up with original insights on anything? I don't know anything. I mean, all I do is repurpose content from other people. And yet, what I find that only on occasions where I do come up with, with stuff like the Reitoff principle, that resonance calendar or these other sort of random phrases that I've tried to coin.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Seems to really resonate with you. So, I don't know. Like, I've I've noticed that on Twitter as well, recently. Like, once you hit a certain size following, and you you can pretty much tweet anything, and you know that at least a few dozen people are gonna like it. And it and you know, by hitting the like, I suppose some subset of those were just kind of like anything I post just reflexively. Yep. But for the rest of them, they're gonna read that and think, okay, yeah, hit the like button. And that is very, very liberating, in a way, in that.
Taimur
Wait, liberating?
Ali
Yeah, no, it, it's, it's liberating, because it means that my ideas have value beyond just in my own head.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
And therefore, it makes me more comfortable to experiment with ideas with more ideas, just from my own head, and sort of be be more okay with putting them putting them out into the world.
Taimur
That was an interesting, turn down the path. Am I right in saying that you feel more comfortable tweeting random stuff, because, you know, you'll definitely get like a few likes, and so you're not like completely insane probably?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
I thought that was weird, because I thought what you were actually gonna say, which is what I've been trying to hammer into your head for quite a while now. Is that, you know, well, I, I know, there's always gonna be people who like my tweets. And so really, that's not a reasonable barometer for anything. I need my own internal compass for like, what's valuable, what's meaningful, what's interesting, I need to live by that rather than living by, you know, what will get likes or whatever, right?
Ali
I still think I'm at the point, at least when it comes to Twitter, where I'm at the point where I need to put in the reps, and I don't, I'm at the point where I need to worry about quantity rather than quality. I think when it comes to, when it comes to stuff like YouTube videos, I said, for those, I now have an internal barometer for what I think is good, which partly which partly is somewhat correlated with the external barometer of what the audience thinks it's good.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
Because ultimately, this is like a, you know, an audience for audience serving platform. But I think when it comes to Twitter, and when it comes to kind of original writing, I'm still in the sort of, I will do whatever life hacks that I can get to sort of make myself more comfortable with doing the thing.
Taimur
I guess that's fair. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose. But I think this was also the underlying. So, I remember a few episodes ago, I had a bit of a rant at the end of the episode against you.
Ali
Legibility.
Taimur
About about like, legibility and about, like, not reading any real books or whatever. I think this came across as an angry rant, Mimi actually said that. I seemed weirdly angry at you.
Ali
It was like, close to magic, wasn't it?
Taimur
Yes, I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that. But I was basically trying to get at this thing of like, yeah, basically all this stuff. That's what I was trying to get out of, like, you seem to think, yeah, you see, you seem to think it's like quite meaningful to kind of read some, you know, read some stuff, which is itself, a third derivative of something, and then you like, add your own derivative on top of that, rather than, you know, thinking about going to the primary source in some way and constructing your entire thing yourself.
Ali
I'm gonna give, I'm going to give you a quote from a Nobel Prize winner here.
Taimur
Which is?
Ali
Which is thinking is hard, and people can't be bothered to think. What's a quote from nature from from from this very post? It's the will to think, people don't have the will to think. I really wish I had in my fingertips because then that would, that was the point that I was making. What's it?
Taimur
Oh, the will to think. The essential element for successful work in any field is the will to think.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
That's what you're saying?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
What do you mean?
Ali
I'm saying I'm saying I don't have the will to think.
Taimur
Oh, I see. Okay. That was my frustration.
Ali
Which was the point I was making the legibility rant that, like, m n, I have a finite amount of time, I've got the national curriculum that I n ed to sort out in my, my YouTube channel, good old Govi is telling me what I'm a lowed to make videos about. Therefore, yeah, I have to be honest, I don't I d n't care about finding the actual proof of the chain rule. I am more than h ppy to sort of parrot the sort of fake version of the chain rule proof in the h pe that kind of in the future, I would like to explore these areas in more d pth at some point when I want to have a bit more time on my hands.
Taimur
So I have some thoughts about that conversation afterwards. I think that what you're, I think your framing of it is actually kind of not really true. You're framing it as if, okay, Option A is I read some fourth derivative book, come up with my fifth derivative, take on it and make a YouTube video about that. And then write that in an email newsletter the following week. You're saying that's option A, and option B is going into a cave, like a hermit study, study the sacred scrolls for a year or something, and then emerge and like, you know, start writing my manifesto on life. Right? You almost framing it as if those are the two options.
Ali
No, I'm saying I'm saying there's a spectrum.
Taimur
Yeah, it's obviously a spectrum.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
But like, I feel like the option B is a lot, you know, I think your audience will value your thoughts on stuff in general, you know, and so if you are, you know, if you're reading the sacred scrolls, and maybe it takes you, you know, a couple of weeks or something, to read the sacred scrolls about a particular topic, and start, like forming your own thoughts and your own take on it, you know, maybe it takes you a couple of weeks. And, you know, fine, you could have read two Tim Ferriss books in that time, and make content about it. I'm saying, it's not the difference between you have to take a break from YouTube for six months to actually learn some stuff, versus you keep making videos. It's really just like, you know, just spend a bit more time on something and come up with your own stuff. And there'll be plenty of contents produced about it and dare I say, people will probably find that a lot more interesting than you know. They'll find Ali Abdaal's first derivative take on something a lot more interesting than Ali Abdaal's fifth derivative take on something.
Ali
Okay. Yeah, that's a good point. That's along the lines of what I've been thinking as well. The reason I have been, so for a lot of a fair a fair amount of productivity stuff, I feel like I'm coming up with sort of first and second derivatives as opposed to fifth derivatives things.
Taimur
Okay. Nice.
Ali
For stuff that I'm less familiar with. Like, for example, if I were to do a video on nutrition, or fitness and stuff, yes, I could go down to the original research or come up with it and try and come up with a first derivative thing of it. But there is so much low hanging fruit that I've yet to explore.
Taimur
That's a fair point. Yeah.
Ali
It makes a lot of sense to just do the fit through just stuff, what is there? And partly, partly, one of the things I value about this podcast is that it encourages me to, uh. Who was it? I talking about this? I think the way I kind of think of it is, you know, that that that discussion we have each week allow, right, what's the topic for the week?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
I sort of see it almost as an intellectual arms race with you. Being where you're coming up with lots of these topics. Last Friday, I need to sort of be on top of my game of sort of reading outside.
Taimur
Right.
Ali
The things that I would normally ...
Taimur
Thinking about stuff, basically,
Ali
You can think of thinking about stuff or me reading about stuff beyond beyond what I would normally do to encourage me just just to get a bit more diverse perspective, which is where Elephant in the Brain came up and then sort of the righteous mind based off of that? Where was it going with this? And so yeah, it's, it's, it's a direction that I do want to head and I think there is definitely value in sort of getting first derivative stuff more but.
Taimur
Nice.
Ali
There is always the balance of like, well, we've got, we got sponsored videos coming out next week. Let me pick the low hanging fruit while well, you know what, I have to turn out this video in the next hour.
Taimur
Yeah, sure, fine. All I'm saying is that, but you should shift the balance a little bit.
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
Nice. So that actually brings us to the end of the post that I love we've been recorded. I don't know if these three different devices are even still recording at this point. Right. Well, that's the post. We'll link to it. It's great stuff. I'll link to my various blog posts associated. Race to this thing. Cool. To wrap up a few things. We actually got a lot of messages after the last week's episode
Ali
On the envy episode.
Taimur
Oh, yes. I think people really liked that. I think it really resonated with people. And I think there was a lot of like, it was like an original conversation between you and me. And it was like a raw and real conversation. And I think that came across. And so I think that was really good. I think people loved it.
Ali
It was mostly book discussion.
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
It was mostly a book discussion. But then we really went deep into the end.
Taimur
Yeah, I think we went deep into like, personal experiences of the envy stuff.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
I think I think I'm glad that resonated. I like a bunch of people said, like, this is your best episode so far. And so for that, that's cool. And then the episode before, that was where we were trying to like convince people to become professional golf players, aka have an online presence. And it seems like I got a lot of messages from people saying that Oh, man, like I'm finally over the edge. How do I, how do I start a blog? That kind of thing is where to start a blog is on substack substack.com. We'll link to it below. But yeah, it feels like that might have actually done something. But as we were talking about in the car, the real test is like, it's great that lots of people are starting.
Ali
I know, sort of five, five different medics that I know in various sources. We've all started YouTube channels.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Within the same two week period.
Taimur
Right. Yeah. And that's great. Like, that has to be the first step. But the real the real test is how many people are still gonna be doing this, you know, three months, six months, 12 months from now and like consistently doing it and that's really the name of the game.
Ali
And we'll refer you to episode or episode number three about consistency for that one, which I think is also a pretty good.
Taimur
Yeah. Sounds cool. Let's read a review. Oh, we had a negative review. We had the first negative review in many, many, many months.
Ali
I worry that if we read it, it will encourage more people to think so. Okay, leave negative reviews,
Taimur
This person gave her a one star review. In Great Britain, the reviews IMO, in my opinion, materialistic and arrogant, weak core values.
Ali
Oh, is that it?
Taimur
That's it. That' s the negative review.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
I'd love to learn more.
Ali
Yeah. Whoever that is.
Taimur
That's the thing that they're probably not listening again. Yes, I don't know what episode they're talking about. I don't know why they feel that way. I'd be very curious to know if any listeners feel we are materialistic and arrogant and have a weak core values. Love to hear why. But yeah, that was the review for this week? Do you have any insights of the week?
Ali
I think I've been thinking about kind of, sort of just just just along this sort of same theme of constructivism is, to what extent is it useful to take a cursory look to take a cursory look at the the canon of a particular field before worrying about doing original thinking?
Taimur
What do you mean?
Ali
As in, for example, let's say you want to get into entrepreneurship, you want to do your own startup?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
I feel like it probably makes better sense to speed read before our workweek and the lean startup and like a few others sort of canonical books.
Taimur
Yeah. 100%
Ali
Before rather than doing a Ramanujan sort of, you know, rediscovering Pythagoras from the ground up.
Taimur
Right. Yeah.
Ali
But I also wonder what value there is in doing a Ramanujan. And whether we're actually missing insights by everyone singing from the same handshape from the same canonical texts? That's something I've been thinking about, but we can we can talk about it another time.
Taimur
Yeah, that's interesting. I have a few thoughts on this. The thoughts are roughly, that a lot of the stuff that we're kind of doing with causal is like, you know, there is like a playbook that you're supposed to follow, called the lean startup. And we've tried to, like follow that. But in actually like doing the thing we've come to appreciate, sort of why, and how some of those things are useful and also why and how some of those things aren't applicable to us in our opinion and stuff like that. Yeah, we'll talk that the other time.
Ali
Definitely. Right. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll see you next week. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode or any ideas for new podcast topics? We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well tweet or dm us at noverthinking on Twitter, please.