Introverts, Extroverts and Identity Signals

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
15.Mar.2021

Ali
My name is Ali, I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are things going today?
Taimur
Things are going pretty swellingly. Well, okay. In a sense, they're not because I think I left too much work for the weekend. Like on Friday, I just wasn't terribly productive. And so I have to do all these things this weekend. And then I didn't do them yesterday. So I have to do them today. And today, I was tied up with a bunch of other stuff like podcasts and podcasts members call and things like that. So I don't have to do them after we record this.
Ali
[...] 6pm on a Sunday evening, so your Sunday evening is going to be okay. What does this look like? Like you can do whatever you want, basically. So like, what does this like thing of I've left work? Like, why not just do it tomorrow? Like, you're the founder of the company, you can just be like, you know, I'm gonna take the weekend off, or is that not really how it works?
Taimur
It could be how it works. But like, I have like an internal compass for like, you know, barometer for like, what pace we should be moving out and what should be getting done. And it wouldn't, it would make me uneasy. If I push this stuff to tomorrow, I think in a sense, I do need to get better at just like knowing when to draw the line. Because there is a yeah, knowing what I've done, like an honest day's work. And I think I'm pretty good at that. I'm just bad at doing an honest day's works.
Ali
Why are you bad at doing honest day's work?
Taimur
I think we've talked about it before, I think I know that like in the worst case scenario, I could just like work late or work on the weekend or something. And so you know, I know that are maybe I can like waste a bit of time in the afternoon or something like that, I feel like in between tasks is where a lot of time gets wasted. Just kind of dilly dallying around and then like there are there are also internal interruptions to my day, that I have to just got to deal with.
Ali
Zoom calls.
Taimur
Let's say the scheduled zoom calls more or the unscheduled things, it's not too interesting. I think I'm just like, generally, yeah, enough about my productivity slump, what's going on with you these days?
Ali
Things are interesting. Things are interesting these days, I feel
Taimur
What's the streaming vibe? Like what does that add to the like I've developed this new morning routine, which makes people feel sort of makes me it makes me look a bit like a pothead almost where I wake up. And experience for you?
Ali
It just makes it It means I can have a chat with people while I'm normally, I would like have a shower is the first thing I do in the mornings. And then I sort of get ready and like you know, I become a human. But now I wake playing. And because I'm like questing, questing at the moment and leveling up up and it's bit cold. So I'd done my robe. And my robe automatically makes me look a bit a bit of a waste man. And I just sit on the sofa with my laptop out and I do my kind of morning journaling thing. And then usually I actually get some reasonable creative work done in the morning where I don't have any meetings scheduled. And then I decided that at some point during the day, I'm going to decide to have a shower. And this act is my reset, where I've gone from like, you know, pothead to normal human being. Sometimes this shower gets delayed like quite a lot. So like today, I had to shower about 15 minutes ago. Because they were just stuff that happened beforehand, I had like, you know, various zoom calls and then various stuff was going on. And now I feel like I've got the second wind of energy. So after this podcast, I'm gonna feel like more. Whereas if I had to shower in the morning, I feel like I'm wasting the momentum that I have when I wake up. So that's been interesting. I've also started playi g World of Warcraft again, it's so good. I've been playing it for the last lik four days every night for about like an hour or two streaming it on Twitch an on YouTube. So follow me at twitch.tv/aliabdaal. my Paladin, from level 50 and 50 to level 60 and the new zones in the Shadowlands, it means that I can kind of check out the Twitch chat on the side and people will ask questions that I can just kind of reply to them.
Taimur
What like relates to the game?
Ali
Generally, [...] yeah like, how do I get into med school, what's med school like.
Taimur
Are you are you Pakistani?
Ali
Are you from India, you know, [...] on the stream. But it was cool last night because I gave people my Battlenet, Battletag and said, hey, add me as a friend. And these people had me for I was like, right, anyone want to do a dungeon together? And this guy who was a level 60 priests was like, Sure I'll do a dungeon with you. And then I was I was tank he was healer and he was like level 60 so he was like really good healer. So he [...] make this huge as polls and just like having loads of fun in dungeon. And then afterwards, he whispered me being like, you know, you're a lot better than I thought you'd be. Yeah, so there's just, it's just kind of fun. And I've got all these kind of friends on Battlenet where most of my IRL friends have stopped playing these sorts of games. So it's nice having people that I can be like, Hey, anyone want to do a dungeon together and we'll just do it.
Taimur
Nice. That sounds like a blast.
Ali
Yeah, really fun. And this kind of makes me more likely to get work done during the day because I now have this thing to look forward to in the evening, If I've done an honest day's work. Yeah. Whereas before while we would be like, Okay, well, I guess I should just relax. And that usually look like just watching TV with Sheen or something. I'm very occasionally reading a book. But inevitably it would be it would end up just kind of waste manning in front of the sofa, eating a takeaway and watching TV. Yeah, but now it's like my evening activity feels like Yes, I'm really looking forward to this. So I try and get my honest day's work done before I'm allowed to play WOW.
Taimur
Yeah, I think having this thing to look forward to is really big. I feel like these days, I don't really have much evening activity to look forward to.
Ali
Mate, join WOW. Genuinely, it's so good.
Taimur
Really?
Ali
You can be on the stream with me, and that'll be fun.
Taimur
The issue is that like, lockdown is so kinda coming to an end. And so I, you know, usually in the evenings, you know, back in the good old days, I'd be like, hanging out with mates or whatever, right? And so..
Ali
Not every evening,
Taimur
Not every evening, but certainly.
Ali
Have World of Warcraft for the evening. So you know, hanging out with mates.
Taimur
Yeah, that could be interesting. Yeah, maybe we'll give it a go.
Ali
Would recommend having trying to get Sheen into it. And she's just refusing point blank. She, interestingly, she has been semi guilt tripping me like, why don't you ever sit down and watch Bollywood films with me? Like I do all the time. And then I was [...] like, how about you play World of Warcraft with me? And he was like, yeah, you son of a bitch. (laughs)
Taimur
That's aggressive. (laughs)
Ali
So that's me and World of Warcraft. It's not having an effect on my personality at all. It already did that when you were 16. And now I'm really getting into it. And so I have like a default thing. Because you know, when you're on the toilet, right? You have to you spend five minutes deciding what am I going to watch? Or what am I going to listen to and stuff. But now it's like, I know that my YouTube homepage is protection Paladin tanking shadowland, PvP specs, tell them that recommendations and I'm like, great. I just have a default thing. I can watch people who are prop Paladin tanks and become better at the game. I applied the principles that I learned in my various toilet breaks during the day in my evening session, and it's so good. I feel like the progression I feel like I'm improving. I haven't felt the joy for such a long time.
Taimur
That's amazing. yeah, I had a similar thing about well in lockdown 1 where I got into playing Super Smash Bros in Nintendo Switch. And then in my bathrooms they would be arcade. I'll get a look at like, you know, Pichu combos on Super Smash. They will they will play out like it's nice to have a deliberate YouTube them.
Ali
Yeah, like [...] my toilet break thing was like art tutorials and like drawing tutorials. I'd applied them in my lessons. Like it's so nice having tutorials to watch on the toilet. So much better than just scrolling Twitter.
Taimur
I started. I got a guitar recently, I've started trying to try to learn that and so I've started watching some, some guitar tutorials. Guitars a lot harder than piano. It's ridiculous. I think my fingers are getting used to it now. But like, the first day or something, I felt like I was being tortured. I was like, no, that there's no way this is correct. Like, there's no way I need to be putting this on because it really hurts.
Ali
[...] on your fingertips and it stops hurting. And you don't for a while and you play again, you're like, Oh, shit, my fingers are really hurting.
Taimur
It was seriously painful. But I think it's, it's not too bad now. And like, you know, a lot of the times I feel disheartened because I know what my fingers need to be able to do. Like, I know I need to be able to go from that chord to the next chord, like basically instantly without having to think about it. Why isn't it working? Yeah, yeah. And right now, like, every time I go from one chord to another, each of my fingers moves individually. I've looked at it move one at a time. And then I kind of think, man, like, how am I ever going to get better at this, but then I think back to like the piano, I think it was pretty similar at the start where, you know, before your hands are used to the chord shapes, it's like, you have to look at every note move this finger into the right position, and so on. And so it's reassuring that I've already kind of been through that with the piano. And so yeah, I think it's just about putting in the reps and doing the practice.
Ali
Are you following Justin Guitar?
Taimur
I don't know.
Ali
Oh, if you're going, if you go to his website, he's got the best like beginners guitar course. That's what for like five minutes a day to become semi proficient.
Taimur
Oh nice.
Ali
I'm in the process of working through his intermediate course now, which I've been in the process of working through for the last five years. Yeah, it's like genuinely really good. And it's free. It's just, I don't put into practice.
Taimur
Is my white balance really wacky by the way?
Ali
Very, very yellow rather.
Taimur
Yeah, let me just sort that out.
Ali
While you're doing that. One thing I've been thinking about earlier today is what makes for a good YouTube video or what makes a good blog post. Like what makes something in this sort of this sort of creative realm feel good. And I think I've landed on an interesting mental model for this. And that's the concept of proof of work. Now in the field of Cryptography. Proof of Work is what secures like the blockchain In cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin, for example, Proof of Work is where something is very, very, very difficult to do. And everyone knows that it's difficult to do. But it's very easy to verify. Like, for example, if you're solving a hash puzzle to mine a huge block on the chain for Bitcoin, it takes large amounts of effort a large amounts of work large amounts of computing power to mine the block, but it's very easy for someone to verify that that thing has been mined. So the Proof of Work is very asymmetrical in that it's very hard to do very easy to verify. And I think Proof of Work is what makes a good YouTube video or a good blog post, in that, we all have this. I think increasingly now we have this internal barometer for what makes like what, what sort of content looks like a lot of effort has been put into it, a lot of work has been put into it. And I think this effort can take different forms. This effort could be just like ridiculously good editing, which is some YouTubers that I know where you just everyone will come into page, oh, my God, this must have taken you hundreds of hours. And it's like, yeah, it did. It could be like really good storytelling, when someone tells a good story that feels like you know, that's another tick, tick the box a box of Proof of Work in our minds. I think another one is large amounts of personal experience compressed into a small thing. And so if it's like a blog post, call, you know, my internet friend, Nat Eliason has a blog post called "How to Start a blog That Changes Your Life" where he condenses eight years of blogging experience into this post, which is 3000 words and has graphs and revenue numbers and all this kind of stuff. It's such a large amount of personal experience and hard won experience condensed into something that makes everyone feel oh shit, this is really, really good. Equally, if I look at a lot of the videos that I've done that have done the best they've been where I've condensed large amounts of my own personal experience into a video. And I've been thinking about this because kind of because of the some blog posts that I came across a few weeks ago that I shared on our not overthinking Slack member's group thing about the difference between doing something and then talking about it, versus reading something and then talking about it. And I think the doing stuff and actually having your own personal experience and then talking about it is, well, it's a lot more interesting, a lot more unique, a lot more original than reading something, and then subsequently talking about it. And this has been relevant for me because of the book. And in writing, or in the writing of the book. Everyone just keeps telling me like, you need to add more personal experience to it. And I need to keep reminding myself that in fact, one of my affirmations that I write on [...] each morning is something along the lines of my personal experience is valuable. And I should feel okay to write about it or something like that, to just remind myself that this it's okay to write from personal experience, because that's the thing that people actually care about. So I preferred this idea of Proof of Work on my Youtuber Academy executive members call earlier today. And they were like, Oh, yeah, this is pretty legit stuff.
Taimur
Yeah, I really like that. Yes, I totally agree. There is a, there was a good quote I heard recently about, you know, it was something like, beware of unearned wisdom. And I think there's a lot of unearned wisdom go around on
Ali
I think, wait, but why does a fantastic job of that blog post how to the internet. You know, people like summarizing other people's books and things like that, and, you know, all of this kind of thing. Yeah, I think, I think what you're trying to what you're sort of getting at is sort of the idea of earned wisdom, where, like, you know, someone is actually, you know, done made the efforts, yeah, done the work. Yeah, I think when you like, when you come across, you know, a YouTube video or some piece of content. I think in general, like, when you're consuming any kind of information, like, whether that's sort of, in a conversation or something, or in a blog post or YouTube video, there's, there's like the, this sort of explicit sort of content that you're sort of reading or hearing or whatever. And then there's the sort of general vibe that you're getting. And I think, you know, we very quickly make general vibe judgments. And, you know, if, for example, back when I used to sort of write blog posts more regularly, one thing that I used to do just to like set the figure out what to do with your life? This is John [...] Okay, this is a treat. general vibe, well, from the start is to have like, little hand drawn illustrations and, and always have like, at least part of one of these illustrations above the fold, so you don't have to scroll before reading it. As then when you land on this page is like, okay, you'll see like an intro paragraph or two, then you'll see like half of a hand drawn illustration. And immediately it's like, okay, this person has gone through some effort here. I'm going to grant him an extra 20 seconds of attention. Whereas if it's a wall of text, then it's like okay, I have to read this wall of text to get an idea of the vibe or if it's like a couple of paragraphs plus a stock photo then it's like oh shit, I'm probably not going to carry on because this person has not eve gone through the effort of not like doing something other than a stock pho o. So yeah, I think that yeah, these like indicators of the let you make these udgments are really helpful then.
Taimur
I can't just leave John at this point. Why is he unhappy?
Ali
So, yeah, the reason this is, this is interesting and tricky at the same time because I think when you're a beginner on something, it is it's a very high barrier to entry to require that your thing have effort put into it or your thing, have originality or whatever. It these are all things that stop people from creating because they feel oh, well, my ideas on original I don't know what I'm talking about, like, why would anyone Listen to me. And so when you're starting off, it's very easy to be a curator or a repackager of stuff, which is fine. Like, you know, it's curation is useful repackaging is useful, to an extent. And those are lower barrier to entry things and actually creating quote, original stuff. One thing that I've been thinking recently, like when as I kind of teach YouTubers to be better YouTubers, it's like, even if you are a curator or repackager, the thing that makes your thing original is the personal experience that you apply to it. And the best curated newsletters are not the ones where it's just a list of links, even if the link [...] yeah, it's list of links plus someone's perspective on those links that, hey, this is a must read, if you're interested in a, b and c, I read this and it changes the way my business operates. Oh, great. I'm gonna read that thing because I trust you. And I trust your personal experience. Equally, when it comes to repackaging like when I do a summary of a book as a video format, in video format, the ones that do the best are the ones where the, you know, I actually have lived experience based on the teachings of the book, like, you know, I can talk Ad nauseam about how the four hour workweek has actually affected my life and change the way that I do things and talk about the personal experience side of things. Whereas if it's another book that I've maybe only read once, and I'm doing a video about because I know, it's probably reasonable to do a video about this book, it just, it just sort of it's a, it feels like an uphill battle to make that video and I'm and those videos almost invariably perform a lot worse than the ones where I'm speaking from personal experience.
Taimur
What do you think? I mean, I don't want to like, be cynical here. So correct me if this is actually wrong, but it feels to me like most people who are in the game of becoming curators and so on, they gravitate towards much more impersonal stuff, much more like pure curation kind of stuff, more like sort of role playing as a curator kind of thing. Now, I've mentioned this on previous episodes, is just like the difficulty to be vulnerable, that stops people from just, you know, having much more personal content from the start. let's start with your content person, I guess you were vlogging. So maybe that is?
Ali
Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's a part of it, the difficulty in being vulnerable? I think a big part of it is why would anyone care? Like, when you have zero subscribers and zero followers, and no one knows who you are, like, you know, there's, it's very true to think like, why would anyone care about like, my experience about doing x?
Taimur
Yeah that's true.
Ali
Unless people like like, for example, if Elon Musk were to start a YouTube channel about his experience of running Tesla, you know, people would, but if, like, you know, yeah, if you're, if you're an unknown person doing a relatively unknown thing, we're talking about your experiences of that is not is not that interesting, or at least not, it's hard to signal the interest level of that to other people. Who was that guy? You were talking, I think at one point you mentioned, so there was some guy on Twitter who had built like a seven figure business off the back of selling storage units or something. Something into something like that. And how when he was tweeting about his experience of doing the thing that was resonating, because it was earned wisdom.
Taimur
Yeah, I think earned wisdom was part of why that was good.
Ali
So I think yeah, I think that the the difficulty is that, invariably the younger you are, the less earned wisdom you have. And invariably, the younger you are, the more you need to lean on, on earned wisdom.
Taimur
Yeah, I guess so.
Ali
To an extent, yeah. I guess the sort of young, younger creators I know, who have been doing the best, like by the numbers are the people who are targeting students as their audience, like, where Ruby Granger, for example, makes videos for herself, but four years younger. And that's a domain in which like, there's no one more qualified to talk about the words of a 16 year old than an 18 year old, for example. So targeting that audience makes perfect sense. But if you're, let's say, an 18 year old medical student, and you're attempting to summarize atomic habits for other 18 to 25 year olds, there isn't that it's probably not not the best way of going about it.
Taimur
All right. Well, I think we're still in the preamble. The thing I actually wanted to talk about today was off the back of a tweet that I sent to you.
Ali
I'm trying to find the tweet right now.
Taimur
Yes. Can you guess who this tweet was from?
Ali
Navall?
Taimur
Agnes Callard.
Ali
I didn't realize she was on Twitter.
Taimur
She's on Twitter. Alright. Agnes said "Introvert is an identity category. Introverts see being an introvert as an important part of their character who they are a bond that they have with other introverts, something others should know about them, etc. This seems to me to be far less true for extroverts." That's Pretty interesting. Oh, you don't see anyone self identifying as an extrovert many people self identify as introverts. So let me okay, so let me tell you why I think this is interesting. I mean, I think it's interesting for the obvious reason of like, oh, what's going on there. But I think, below the surface, is this is this phenomenon that you can, you can get an idea for the invisible forces that people are feeling in their lives, by the things that they feel the need to signal, because they will, they will feel the need to signal I keep saying they, I should say, we, I'm not trying to, like, speak from up high or down on the people or anything like that. But you know, there are lots of invisible forces that we feel. And, you know, a lot of the things that we try and signal are sort of going against those forces. And so I think the, you know, in the case of introverts being more vocal about their introversion, rather than, you know, compared to extroverts, I think what's what's really going on is there's this invisible force in society, that kind of tells you that it's better to be extroverted, you know, that, like, that's kind of the right way to do things, that there's like an invisible narrative around that. And so, if you're an extrovert, I mean, I don't really like the two categories, to be honest. But whatever, let's go with it. If you're an extrovert, you know, it's all fine and dandy, like, you don't spend any time at all having to think about this because it's like, whatever, yeah, I'm okay. Whereas if you are an introvert, whatever that means, then, you know, you sort of feel this invisible narrative. And you, you want to somehow, like push back against it. It's very cathartic to be able to band together with other people who also identify as introverts and sort of come together in that way. To sort of what's the word? I'm looking for a very specific word here. I don't know man.
Ali
Quiet. I think the subtitle is the power of introverts in a world of extroverts or something, which did really well, I think, partly because it was a feel good for people who were introvert. Oh, yeah. Yeah. introvert, legit, as well.
Taimur
Yeah. I think just just the subheading of that book, and like, the, the reason they chose that is exactly this thing. You know, because, yeah, if you're someone who's an introvert, you will identify with that, because it's like, oh, yeah, there's this narrative, or like, extrovert is the right way to go or whatever. And we're finally being validated. And so I think, I think it's super interesting. So I follow lots of, I follow lots of meme accounts that I don't actually find funny, because I think it's just like, a great, a great insight into the human experience. So, for example, I follow a lot of a lot of girls meme accounts, on Instagram. There's one called like, Girlies or something. Anyway, they're like meme accounts, which are obviously, for girls. And I follow a bunch of these, just because I think it's super interesting, because I think the stuff that people create memes about, it kind of tells you, you know, you, it often reveals the invisible forces that that the memes are pushing against. And, you know, I think memes in many way, it's like, they're very cathartic, you know, that, you know, it's a bit like comedy, right? Like, you know, you can, you can sort of reveal truths in comedy that let people sort of, in a light hearted way, acknowledge them and things like that, you know, by by joking about these things. And I think in the same way, if you'd like, if you track what memes people are looking at what means people are liking and, and the sort of the meme narratives, it can tell you about, you know, some of the some of the invisible narratives that they're sort of pushing against. So I think the introversion extroversion thing is really interesting. I think another thing which is perhaps related, is there's this sort of trend of it somehow being cool to not like other people or something, you know, you see lots of memes which basically insinuate that you don't like other people, do you get what I'm referring to here?
Ali
I have an image in my head of like, the kind of like, I've not, I've not seen these sorts of memes, but the image I get in my head is of like, someone who feels it's like a bit of a badge of honor to be the sort of person who doesn't like a lot of people.
Taimur
Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there there are a lot of memes that sort of insinuate that.
Ali
On a side note, Is there like a daily newsletter that just publishes the top 10 memes of the day or something? Like I would, I would subscribe to that in a heartbeat because I see like, I really like this is really interesting. I want to see memes. But I do not want to go through the effort of following tons of Twitter accounts and hoping the wage rises to the top.
Taimur
You don't want to earn the wisdom.
Ali
I dont want to earn the wisdom I want someone to earn it for me, and to deliver it in a bite sized chunk in my daily inbox each morning.
Taimur
I've thought about this. I remember in like third or fourth year of university, I had, you know, I've long believed that like tracking tracking the hemisphere. Is like super? Yeah, there's a lot of information there, you know. And I started looking into, okay, if you could, if you could basically have, you know, a sort of model/algorithm or whatever, they can classify memes. Because, you know, most movies have the same format, they're just different texts or whatever. And so if you're, if your algorithm can, you know, follow like a bunch of Instagram pages, Facebook pages, Reddit and stuff like that, and it can, it can group memes by format, then you can kind of track which formats like on the app, which formats are on the down, or there's actually, there's a subreddit called Meme Economy, where people like to sort of jokingly buy and sell, you know, place bets like I think this meme's is gonna be hot, like, the next two weeks or so they go like sell, sell, sell. So this idea of like tracking the popularity of different meme formats as they sort of come and go, I think that's pretty interesting. I think I, the thing I'm trying to get at is that the words actually matter, because it's a lot of the same narratives, just expressed in different meme formats. And yeah, I think a meme letter would be interesting. I feel like someone, I've only seen a couple of these. Yeah, it's cool. On like, yeah, maybe maybe framing it in terms of invisible narratives was, is not quite the way I want to do it. But I think, I think I'll ask him the question, why is this meme? Why would this meme be cathartic for someone? Is the right question to be asking. Because, I mean, okay, some things are just like, pure, just like funny. Some things are just like jokes that are just really funny. But when you see, when you see certain trends in the kinds of the things that different memes insinuates, and you see, like a trend of like, a bunch of music trying to insinuate x thing, then I think, ask the question, okay, who might this be cathartic for? And why would this be a cathartic thing for someone? For example, the introversion extroversion thing, I think a lot of I mean, this thing about not liking people, you know, some similar stuff around it, sort of lots of memes that insinuates that, you know, what everyone else wants to do is kind of go out and party, but what I want to do is actually just sit home alone, you know, with a book or one and watch a movie or something. Hahaha, I'm so quirky kind of thing.
Ali
There's that meme of like, you know, me on New Year's Eve, and then like, 11:59-12:00, a wave of flag in the air and then go back to the computer. You know, other people feel the same way as me.
Taimur
Yeah. I think these things are cathartic. Because we feel like, we should like the norm is like, not that and we feel like we've kind of been told that actually, that's weird, or whatever. Have you? Have you noticed any trends and kind of the memes that you see?
Ali
I don't see a lot of memes. In fact, the only memes I see are the ones that you see. So I have a very, my sample sizes are extremely skewed in this particular conversation. I was gonna say on the on the introvert extrovert thing, it sort of feels like how no one identifies as a white male. And yet lots of people identify as a woman of color. And there are support groups around that kind of thing. And people will band together on that particular identity. Whereas no one's banding together on the identity of being a white male. Like it's just not a thing. Equally, no one is banding together. Like I feel like most extroverts don't even know the word extrovert is a thing because they're not the sorts of people that would read articles I you know, talking about the difference between introverts and extroverts. So when something is so normalized, you know, there is that element of when you are not part of that normal group, you know, like, Pakistan society at university. guarantee there's no like Englishman society at university.
Taimur
Okay, no, I, I think what you're saying is obviously true. But I think, I think in a lot of instances, it's not just, you know, for example, the introversion extroversion thing. You I think what you're kind of implying is, you know, if in the world like 80% of people were extroverts and 20%, were introverts. And there'd be no reason for the extroverts to, like, shout it from the rooftops, but the introverts are like a smaller group. And so they need to kind of band together. I think that I think there are many instances where it is closer to 50/50, or even more people against the thing, but the narrative is so strong in the other direction, that the narrative is actually going against the majority, or going against, like, the 50%. And so I think one of one of these, or an example that comes to mind at university, is like clubbing you know? Like, if you're, if you show up at a university in the UK, and you do you go through like the first term or something, you will get a think that 95% of the human population loves, like, dancing in the sweaty, little crowded room,. You know, you're gonna think, Man, I'm so weird. [...] And I think, and from surveying my friends, I'd say, you know, maybe like 10% to 20% of people like are intrinsically actually into the activity, but the narrative, the narrative that you should be into the activity is so strong, that actually the 80% of people who aren't that into it, would still do it. And then you and you know, after the first few weeks after the first couple of times, or whatever, then you do start to see some people, you know, kind of speak out against it and have these cathartic conversations of like..
Ali
By the way. I don't know if anyone's realized, but like, it's it's actually not that fun, but Oh, my God. [...]
Taimur
So I think the the clubbing phenomenon at university is particularly interesting, because I think the numbers are just so skewed, where the narrative is pushing back against, like, 80% of the people, I think, I think in most situations, it might be like 50%, or something. Like on the introversion, extroversion thing. What are your thoughts on that in general? Like, do you subscribe to either of those categories?
Ali
I mean, it's such a standard thing that there must be some, there must be a large amount of truth to them. I subscribe to the categories. I don't know a lot of people who identify as extroverts, but maybe if they did, they wouldn't hang out with me. I feel like I know more introverts tna extroverts.
Taimur
Are you an introvert?
Ali
I don't know. I always think like, the definition of an introvert allegedly is someone who gets sort of recharges their energy based on being alone versus being with others. Like when I was at university, I always wanted to have people in my room. And I think if I was at university, again, I would still prefer that particular setup where my room is always my doors always open. And people can always walk up if they want. But even so it's like, if I'm on for example, on holiday with friends, I would quite like there to be like, you know, an evening or an afternoon or something where once in a while, we're actually not we're just kind of sitting in the living room on a laptop to doing or anything. Yeah, I'm not sure if that's like an introvert extrovert thing I'd like I don't feel I need my energy to recharge. I just always have cool things to do on the computer. Which benefit from kind of checking in once in a while. So I don't know. What about you?
Taimur
I think I've definitely been made to feel like I was an introvert. When I was younger, I think just because I was kind of nerdy and my interests again, kind of nerdy. But I think fundamentally, I'm all about the human connection, man. You know me. So I think I'm definitely Yeah, I mean, if I if I had to pick a side, I think I definitely say I'm extroverted. But I think I was made to feel introverted, just because I felt like my interests.
Ali
Your interests in reptiles and animals. And League of Legends, or whatever it was back in the day.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what a lot of it is. Yeah, I think. I think partly, that's why I don't really like the categories. Because I think there are, I mean, there are definitely some people who, you know, like a lot of alone time don't particularly like hanging out with other people. I think, I think most people, like hanging out with small groups of people, or like one on one with friends. I also think most people don't particularly like large social events with a bunch of strangers, they don't know where they have to meet people. And I think, again, there's a strong narrative that like, that says, you know, there is a strong narrative that one should be comfortable in the kind of setting where it's a large group of people you don't know, and you have to meet people, when I'd say maybe 10% of people are actually comfortable in that setting. I think 90% are not, but those 90% would be made to feel like, oh, maybe I'm introverted or something. Because I'd like whenever I've dug into this, yeah, whatever. I've dug into this, like introversion extroversion thing with people. I think most people end up saying, like, oh, yeah, I don't, I don't like hanging out in sort of large groups of people, you know. And like 90% of people agree with that is that the vast majority people do not like hanging out in large groups of people, especially people that they don't know. But they are made to feel like that is non standard. And so I think lots and lots of people, I think, identify as introverts on the grounds that they're not comfortable in large groups of strangers, and that they prefer hanging out with like, small groups of closer friends. Like, that's like 90% of people people, surely. So yeah, I think this is an instance where like, the narratives, like goes, go really far against the vast majority. And then and then there's a question of like, Okay, if if, like the majority of people getting screwed by this narrative, why are we all still perpetuating it? And I think that I think the thing is that, like, you know, that there's like a perceived social cost, like, you know, in order to come out against this narrative, you basically have to put your hand up and risk saying, like, I'm weird, you know, what, actually 90% of people is the same way as you in that case.
Ali
There's also there's also that that phenomenon where web, like the way the thing is set up, the belief propagates itself by virtue of the fact that it's sort of like for example, the fact that large groups of people have more people in them than small groups of people do. Even if you have the same number of like large group events or small small group events, like in a given population, the large groups event and the large group would still have more people in it on average, and therefore they would be a feeling that oh, you know, most events that I get invited to are large group events rather than small group events, therefore, [...] And it's like similar to sort of similar to the narrative that having kids as meaningful where like, by, you know, by virtue of the fact that you believe having kids is meaningful, you will have kids, and then that narrative will be transmitted. Whereas if you don't have kids, that narrative will not be transmitted, that having kids are not necessarily meaningful. And so it does. I think there's there's an element of that as well.
Taimur
Yeah, I think the structural aspects that you mentioned are interesting. The thing about being more likely to be invited to a large group thing. Yeah, that's potentially true. I think on the kids thing. So what you're saying on the kids thing is that if you think having kids is meaningful, you'll have kids and then you'll shout from the rooftops about how meaningful it is to have kids. But if you don't think having kids is meaningful, you won't have kids. Your lack of kids won't be like a big deal. You're not gonna be shouting about not having kids. And so like, the narrative just becomes like having kids is meaningful.
Ali
Yeah, and some people argue there's also a sort of biological genetic component of the people, having kids is meaningful will transmit that meaningfulness of having kids.
Taimur
Yeah, I think the bigger sort of structural thing with the large groups is more like the kids thing where, you know, if you're scrolling through your Facebook feed, just by the nature of the setup, you are more likely to see, you know, if there's an event with 50 people in it, you're more likely to know someone at that event compared to an event with four people in it. So yeah, on your Facebook feed or whatever, you're more likely to just come across the big event just because [...]
Ali
[...] Big events, [...] Three people and uploading in Facebook, cuz that's sneaky. Yeah, I'm bringing my camera to a group, a birthday party with 100 people, I don't realize, hey, you snap pictures of everyone. Guys fake smile at each other. Yeah, it looks like you're having fun. You know, club nights always hire those photographers with like, the blinding lights to make everyone Oh, wow. people having fun in this brightly lit club. Yeah. I was like, wow, the colors are so vibrant. Wow. Like, what the hell?
Taimur
I came for the colors dammit. So we've talked about the introversion extroversion thing? Are there any other instances of people there being like a latent desire to push back against the narrative?
Ali
People who enjoy reading often signal that they enjoy reading, whereas people who enjoy watching TV never signal that they enjoy watching TV.
Taimur
Really? I don't get what you mean.
Ali
I mean, like if, if they're the hinge profiles have scrolled through in the last few months or any indication. reading is something that people want to signal. Whereas when watching TV, something people don't want to signal probably because of the narratives around this activity and the status they get you get the point gets you yeah.
Taimur
Oh, yeah, I think this stuff people signal in, in dating profiles is also another like, very interesting source of like, what now you know, what narratives people might be trying to push back against? Oh, mate, here's what here's one. Here's one, taking pride in the idea of being sarcastic. This is, this is like, a trend I've seen both in memes and in dating profiles, where a lot of people seem to claim that they are particularly sarcastic. And I think I've often like thought about that. I think, is Sheen around by the way?
Ali
Yeah, she has got headphones on and is watching a TV show right now.
Taimur
Okay. Yeah. Be curious to get her input on this. But I think also, one thing I've seen is that a lot of girls in particular want to identify as being sassy or sarcastic. Yeah, I think there's a strong bias on the sarcasm thing. Where there's something okay, maybe, my daisy gaps are bias, [...] girls out there. I do think I do think in general, like, I see many more girls wanting to identify with being sarcastic, sassy, and things like that.
Ali
I've never seen any of my guyfrends who have like sarcasm as one of their perks on the profile.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, I think you know, that probably gets at some socialization, where as, as a girl you have, maybe you're sort of expected or taught to be a bit more, you know.
Ali
Less sarcastic and less, yeah.
Taimur
Well, I think just a bit less. Yeah, maybe like a bit more reserved about the opinions and things like that. And so like, the identifying a sarcastic, you know, it's kind of cathartic, because it kind of goes against that. But I might be talking about why also, I suspect I'm not I'd be interested to hear from women about this, but that's another thing I've noticed.
Ali
I see like a surprisingly large number of dating profiles where the, where the vibe of some of the answers is very much like shots, shots, shots. I love alcohol. You know, what's your idea? Have a great have like a great night in four bottles of wine. What's your idea of like a great first date? Shots, shots shots. Okay, yeah, that will stick out in my mind every time I come across them. I'm not, I feel like I come across them disproportionately often compared to other things that people signal like that is, it's got it's got a high modal, whatever, there's a high mode of people we've got over like, that person.
Taimur
Yeah, I think, yeah, I've talked to friends about this, I call it alcohol signaling. I do see a lot of alcohol signaling. And I've always found it baffling. You know, I don't drink alcohol. And I've always felt quite alienated by that culture. And I think at university again, there was a low like alcohol signaling and, and I think, not being in that culture. I mean, look, the general sense that I get is that if you like alcohol, you are cool, and sociable and outgoing and fun. And so I mean, that's a general sense. I get of what, being into alcohol sort of signals to other people. Yeah, I personally feel quite
Ali
There was a thing that was thing that I heard secondhand, kind of alienated by that stuff. from someone who I vaguely knew at university who kind of joked that, that if
Taimur
Oh, I finished it now.Yeah, it was good. Do you want just a bit she ever sees no, like, if she she ever sees a non drinker on a dating app, she will immediately swipe left on them, because she's like, I'm never gonna date someone who doesn't drink. And I think that that's like very interesting because it, there is probably some, it's probably a reasonable filter. If you are the sort of person who just loves alcohol. Like you probably be not a lot less like y to get on with someone who doesn't just [...] have the trait overlap. How are ou finding The Rosie Project, of context for people who don't know what it is?
Ali
Rosie Project is a great book, apparently one of Bill Gates' favorite books is about this dude, this sort of Professor of genetics, who has Asperger's Syndrome, and who is trying to find a wife. And so he sets off on this kind of wife project where he like, gets a questionnaire and like, you know, goes on dates and uses dating apps and gets people to fill out the questionnaire. And it's all very, very relatable in a lot of ways. It's a very, very good book.
Taimur
Yeah, so I finished this recently. I thought it was good. The one thing that annoyed me is, and look, I might I might be wrong here. And maybe I mean, is the author, the author have Asperger syndrome?
Ali
I don't know. I haven't looked into the ad hominem.
Taimur
But sort of I might be wrong here. I certainly felt at points that the, the main character felt like a bit of a caricature of someone who would have Asperger's syndrome. Maybe I'm wrong, you know yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of people who do actually have, you know, sort of serious, serious enough instances of Asperger syndrome where they would actually be like, the main character, but it certainly felt like a bit of a caricature of someone who's autistic basically. Yeah, that kind of greeted me a little bit. But [...] People are actually like that. What did you think? What was relatable about it for you?
Ali
It was like a lot of the sort of when, when he's talking about dating, you hear his like, internal thought processes and things like when he's trying to empathize with lay and trying to figure out what other people are thinking, just the, the stock way in which like, the thing is phrased, it's like, so now there were like four people in the interaction. And that means there were sort of 16 possible interact, like one to one interactions that could be happening. And some of them, you know, and this person said that thing and that person said that thing and somehow by the furrowing of her eyebrows, I was meant to deduce that she was upset at that person. And their friend said that thing and it's a lot of like, yes, this is exactly what happens in real life, like by the firing of someone's eyebrows, or by the slightly changing tone of their voice, you're meant to infer a lot about their state of mind. I thought that stuff was very interesting, like seeing basically spelled out that this is,
Taimur
Why was that relatable? Or you just think it was like, an accurate representation of reality?
Ali
Yeah actual representation reality, but also, like, I mean, a lot of his stuff around around like the questionnaire, for example, and thinking of dating as being such a kind of logical, like, tick by almost type of exercise.
Taimur
Is that how you think about it as well?
Ali
It's not really, it's not how I think about it, but it's along the spectrum of how I could think it's an extreme version of how I could think about dating. I do think about it in in similar-ish ways, in some capacity, where it's like, well, you know, this is effectively a kind of matching problem, or where the objective is to kind of find, find, like every everyone is optimizing to find the best person that they can possibly attract. And therefore, you know, all these behaviors, behaviors are coming into it and all the signaling kind of goes on. I thought it was interesting how that was spelled out and then taken taken to an extreme.
Taimur
Yeah, okay. Yeah. Now, look, it was interesting. It was the first like romance type, book audiobook in this case I listened to it's certainly nice sort of listening to that kind of story. I think it's like listening. It's like watching a romance or something.
Ali
You've never read a romance book before?
Taimur
I haven't do, this is so good. No, I haven't. Have read many decent books.
Ali
You should read One Day in December.
Taimur
You recommend this to me. I tried reading it. I just couldn't. I couldn't get past the first few pages. It was just too annoying. The rising was too annoying? Maybe the audiobook version would be less annoying.
Ali
Wasn't highbrow enough for you?
Taimur
No, I don't think it was about being highbrow. Like, I think it was just, I just found it annoying. Yeah. I'll maybe go back and try it out.
Ali
Yeah, I occasionally enjoy browsing the romance section of Goodreads and just picking up a random book on there. Just be like, you know what, that's, that's pretty good. It's a good way. It's a good way. Have you read Normal People?
Taimur
No, I've heard the TV show of that is good.
Ali
Yeah, the book is very good as well. Like that kept me up for a long time reading it. I particularly like romance books, because it does, like it touches on because otherwise, like the fiction I read is like fantasy, and very, very little to be learned from fantasy. Whereas from romance book is like, it actually gives you a good insight of the human condition in a way that fantasy books don't. Best is when you combine romance and fantasy, and those are really good.
Taimur
Yeah, we're talking mermaids.
Ali
We're talking like werewolves and like psycho. Like shapeshifters. And you know, that sort of stuff.
Taimur
Ding dong. Nice. Yeah. I didn't want to read more romance books. I think it's interesting. Yeah, this book I'm reading called [...] so I think I mentioned on the podcast before, it uses like, sort of fiction as a good insight into what the cultural attitudes are towards dating and stuff like that, like you can by reading Jane Austen, you can get an idea for like, what's the cultural norms were around how men and women should interact and things like that? I think it's really interesting from that angle as well.
Ali
Almost like yeah, fiction books of the old school means for understand.
Taimur
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Ali
I'm not sure I can use that for that.
Taimur
Well, I think I think I feel like there are a bunch of like, dating app tropes that people often joke about. I think that I mean, there's this there was a sort of trend. I mean, it's, it's something that I think started off as a trend and is now just like a general thing that people say, where you're, if you see a lot of people caught harking on about something, you know, like alcohol, whatever, then you often see tweets, like, liking alcohol is not a personality trait, or you know, liking x is not a personality trait, or whatever, because..
Ali
Liking traveller is not a personality.
Taimur
Yeah, you see a lot of people like signaling that a signaling liking this thing to kind of show that there's, it's like a core part of their identity or personality. And then you got like pushback, or people who, for whatever reason, don't like that.
Ali
What does your dating profile look like? What are what are your answers to the prompt? I'm curious about this.
Taimur
All right, let me open up my Hinge profile, right to view my prompts, I guess, sets the right tone over like, jokey able to sort of poke fun at myself, but also like very sincere, the one of the problems on Hinge is I'm weirdly attracted to. And I think the, you know, a straight guy would say, like, if you answer that straightly, you'd say some weird thing that you're attracted to. My answer for that is Hugh Grant circa 1999. It is actually very sincere. I think he I think Hugh Grant in the old school films is is very attractive, but I think it also signals the right things of like, his thing was a bunch of good stuff. I like Hugh Grant, like rom coms. Very true. Let's just, you know, I'm sort of willing to say things like, I think Hugh Grant is attractive. You know, I'm not like, I don't feel weird about saying things like that. It's also just kind of like a humorous answer, because it's not like playing it straight down the line. So I think it signals all the right things, and kind of keeps it real at the same time.
Ali
[...] to that prompt I'm is I'm weirdly attracted to Princess Jasmine when she's captured by Jafar. [...]
Taimur
Yeah, this fewer layers to your wonder why.
Ali
Yeah, probably.
Taimur
One of my other prompts were the same type of weird if my answer to that is if you love overanalyzing social interactions. Yes, there's not many layers to that. It's pretty straight up, you know? And then my final one is teach me something about, that's the prompt. And the answer is art. I just don't get art galleries man. Again, not particularly humorous. It's kind of true. I'm willing to be open about that. I think in terms of on Hinge, you know, if someone likes you, you can kind of see they can like a particular aspect of your profile.
Ali
What's been your hit rate on those different prompt?
Taimur
I think the Hugh Grant one is a you know, the ladies love it. I think that has a very high conversion rates. I think that is by far the highest, the highest converting prompts on mine. What about you?
Ali
So I think my first one is, I think the prompt is what's your like, the ideal relationship? And my answer is, what?
Taimur
Oh, I didn't know that was a prompt.
Ali
Yeah, the prompt is my audio relationship. And my answer is where we spend 90% of our time doing our own thing and 10% of our time together. That's got a high hit rate.
Taimur
Really? Nice.
Ali
And that often gets comments. We were like, Oh my God, this sounds like the dream. Like it's quite a polarizing.
Taimur
Oh, nice. Yeah, that sounds like a good filter that was a great one.
Ali
The other one is, if wanting if if liking this is wrong, I don't want to be right. And that's the prompt. And my answer is long road trips listening to audiobooks at double speed. And the final one is the Princess Jasmine one. That has a very, very low hit rate.
Taimur
You're still searching for your princess Jasmine.
Ali
I'm still trying to find him man.
Taimur
Especially the Jasmine to your Jafar. (laughs) What are the other date? I'm just gonna Google like dating app tropes. Because I think they're very revealing. First time I select all the images with chimneys okay. The first article is 10 Tinder profile tropes that need to die ASAP. Elle Magazine.
Ali
What year is this?
Taimur
This is from Jan 2016. I think that probably moved on since.
Ali
Maybe they've done since then, yeah.
Taimur
I think one trope is standing on top of Machu Picchu. Quite common thing, identifying a sapiosexual is apparently a trope.
Ali
Is that the same sex?
Taimur
Yeah, I've always found it a bit weird and cringe and I didn't really think I think it's just cringe mate. Probably a trope for guys to be making out with a woman in the photo is probably that's not I shouldn't do that. I'd better update my profile than, being a white guy with dreadlocks apparently. This is what he, number 6 with this list is their profile starts with a misquote of the Lord of the Rings line. Not all those who wander are lost.
Ali
Okay. I've never seen that. Maybe it's it's died already.
Taimur
Yeah, there's not originally basically. Do you see any like YouTube tropes? Is it quite the same thing? Like on Twitter, for example, I see that lots of people who are from the UK but live in the US very strongly identify as Brits in the US, I think. Yeah. Like, honestly, almost every Brit in the US hasn't met for the buyer or that location, something around how they're from the UK, but they now live in the US. That seems to be very cool part of their their identity now. Yeah, I wonder what's going on there.
Ali
Yeah I think the dating app thing is interesting. Like, is it sort of goes to, to the kind of conversation we had on a controversial Podcast Episode A few months ago, talking about like, signaling masculine traits versus signaling, like, traditionally feminine traits. And so my, I've got, I've got this friend, you know, the one here, I've got this friend who has lots of success on dating apps, allegedly, where his whole his whole spiel is like you've got you've got to you've just got a signal, traditionally masculine traits on a dating profile, anything that could even be slightly missed, like construed as being not a masculine trait should just be scrubbed completely. And so he'd have an interesting thoughts about your Hugh Grant thing. I'm curious what he thinks. Yeah, I'll send him a screenshot be like right now can you can you do an analysis of this of this dating profile? What do you reckon?
Taimur
Any other signaling trends or trends? Let me scroll through like a sort of fairly normally meme page for Instagram. Yeah, I think we're very normally want to follow it's called memesczar. I think identify with liking to sleep a lot, is another thing. And you know, I think, yeah. narratives around workism, and productivity and things like that. It's cathartic to be able to say it again. Yeah, to kind of.
Ali
Alright, cool. Should we call it a day?
Taimur
All right.
Ali
Cool. You want to read a review?
Taimur
Let's do it. Oh, yeah. Just finally on the topic of memes. I found my new favorite meme format. It's the allegory of the cave. From Plato, someone else..
Ali
Oh, I didn't. I didn't quite understand what that was meant to be like.
Taimur
It's so in depth. I think it's the most is certainly the most complex meme format I've participated in before. I'm not even going to try and explain it.
Ali
Explain it when we do our episode where we've minted NFT's out of your memes.
Taimur
Yeah. So I did a I did an allegory of the cave meme that kind of takes the piss out of tech people on Twitter. And that was an absolute banger, like it made quite a splash. I think there's an even better one to be done about the productivity industry. So I'll cook one off in sanity. But I think this is this is just gonna. It's gonna call out a lot of people. This is a five star review from [...] in Australia. The reviewer says I want a skincare routine from both of you.
Ali
Oh, I'm actually working on a video it's gonna be called my productive skincare routine. Gonna be lit. I've got a pretty great skincare routine these days. Evidence based. I'll have you know.
Taimur
What is it? I can;t reveal it until the video. Oh, sorry.
Ali
Yeah. It's gonna be can be pretty lit.
Taimur
Nice. Alright, well, thank you everyone for listening. And we'll see you next time.
Ali
Bye. Bye. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter please.