Justin Kan (Twitch Co-Founder) on Entrepreneurship and Living a Meaningful Life

Ali

My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.

Taimur

I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.

Ali

And you're listening to Not Overthinking.

Taimur

The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to not overthinking today we have a bit of an in between episode for you. This is an interview that I did with a chap called Justin Kan a few days ago. Justin is the co-founder of Twitch. Twitch.tv, which sold to Amazon for just under $1 billion. A few years ago, Justin has now started a YouTube channel and a Tiktok fairly recently, and he talks a lot about wellness and how the constant striving for success and chasing accomplishments won't make you happy. This is a fun little conversation that he and I have. And we will be returning to our scheduled programming from next week.

Ali

Let's go. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another Deep Dive live stream. This is the second one of the day for those of you who are awake at eight o'clock in the morning, many many many hours ago and I'm very excited to be joined by Justin Kan, Justin Kan? How do you pronounce your name?

Justin

Justin Kan.

Ali

Justin Kan. Cool. Justin, thank you so much for being on the channel. Loads of people in the chat wanting to hear from you. And we've got lots and lots to talk about. So yeah, thanks for coming on.

Justin

I'm so excited to do it. Especially after your first guest of the day was Brandon Sanderson. He's one of my favorites.

Ali

Oh, no way. Yeah.

Justin

It was nighttime for me when you were doing it but I was still awake. For whatever reason, I actually caught some of it.

Ali

Nice. Yeah, this has been like one of the most bizarre days of my life first talking to Brandon and then talking to you. Because you're both absolutely huge deals in your own right. And I've been having this real struggle of trying not to fanboy too hard. Because I don't know. It just feels like a weird look for like, yeah.

Justin

All right, well, I'll try to live up to whatever. Brandon Sanderson level, I don't know if that's gonna happen, but I'll try my best.

Ali

So on that note, why are we here? This was something I wanted, I wanted to ask you about like, whenever I talk to someone who has like a big name, of which I consider you and Brandon to be in that category. I always feel a sense of like, Oh, I don't I want them to like me. But also I want to, I want to interview them nicely. And I also don't want to them to just think that I'm only using them for the content. And I have so much overthinking that goes on in my head. What's it like from your position to be on like a live stream like this speaking to a random YouTuber?

Justin

[...] feel it's fine. I okay, in my head, what's going on is kind of like, I really want to appeal to his audience, right? Like, I want to them to check out my YouTube, right? Because you're an expert in YouTube. And I'm, like, know nothing about YouTube. I've been doing it for a month. And so I'm kind of like, oh, what can I learn about YouTube? And there is a, you know, I have a lot of anxiety and like, Oh, am I gonna be interesting to his audience? And are they gonna come and check on my channel? You know, the things of like, what do I want in this situation? And then there's a metacognitive process that I have now from basically training and practice that's kind of like, oh, why do you feel that way? Like, do you need to impress the people around you? Like, what is that? Where's that feeling coming from? What is that feeling feel like? So like, where in the body is that feeling? Yeah, what's it, you know? What's the physical sensations of it? And that kind of helps to reduce the noise of those, you know, that kind of overthinking anxiety that may be going on in the background for me.

Ali

Okay, that's very interesting. So I think both of us are sort of approaching this from the spotlight effect angles in that thinking that like we want to perform well, whatever that means to each of us. And the other person is not thinking about that at all.

Justin

Right. Your not thinking about other people's I mean, this is true of like, like, not just in a live stream, but generally you're not thinking about all the performance anxiety, that and other types of anxiety that everyone around you is having, right? You're just thinking I'm the only one this is my experience. I have anxiety, everybody seems like they're totally fine. And I must be defective, broken, like messed up in some way, right? And that, I think is very common experience for many people even and sometimes especially incredibly high performing people. Because oftentimes the performance anxiety or the anxiety to impress other people or the need to impress other people is what drives high performance, right? It's not a healthy necessarily like the most healthy way to do it, but it's something that can drive that high performance in people.

Ali

So why is this still a thing for you? Because like, from where I'm sitting is like well, you're Justin Kan, you co-founded Twitch you sold it to Amazon for like a billion dollars. If anyone has a few money it's you so like, at that point you know, normal people have a feeling that once you've made it surely all of your surely everything is sorted in your life.

Justin

Everything did you just make it you hit it. You know, and then then like the world says perfect, right? Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that there's a couple things that are kind of working against you. Number one is like, there's this Hedonic Adaptation, right?Or Hedonic Treadmill concept. I don't know if you've talked about that before, but it's basically the idea that you adjust to whatever your circumstances are, you know, you might, if you sell a company for a billion dollars, like when when we sold Twitch, it was like, that was great for a week, maybe a little longer. But then afterwards, it was like, Oh, that's just where I'm at now. And there was always something further out on the horizon that could, you know, I was looking at like, oh, can I start a bigger company at, you know, $10 billion company or invest in, you know, find other companies to invest in that are even bigger. And so, you know, for me, nothing, ever, no external success ever stuck in making me, you know, more happy, less anxious, whatever it was. That's one thing. And the second thing is, you know, you might be an expert, or I might be an expert, and be pretty confident in certain areas. Like, if you were going to start a startup, a tech startup, I could probably confidently say, here's some set of things you should be thinking about, and some set of things you shouldn't be thinking about. You know, drive your way towards success in the early days, but there's so many different areas that I know nothing about, you know, and I am a beginner and there are people who are much more expert than me, like even if you're a billionaire who's like, very confident you're going to be going into areas and you know, being in situations in life, where there are many other people are much more competent and experienced here. Like you're an expert at YouTube compared to me, right? You have 100 times as many followers as I have on on YouTube. And so when it comes to like, performing for YouTube, like I'm the beginner and you're the master. And so, you know, and that's true of like, if I met Brandon, I'd be like, Oh, my God, how does somebody write a fantasy book like that? I can't, you know, I can't even imagine how I would go about that process. And I've spent so much time in his fantasy worlds, that I would be, you know, I'd be starstruck in that way, you know, so, and worried about what he's thinking about me. And, you know, that a very natural human experience.

Ali

Ah, excellent. That's very reassuring to hear. There was something you said earlier, which I find very intriguing, which is this thing of, where is the emotion coming from? Like, where am I feeling it? Like, I feel like, this is something I'm absolutely terrible at, like, I'm so bad at like, acknowledging my own emotions. How did? Yeah, how did you get started on that route? Because you strike me as sort of like me, and that you're probably quite logical, like a bit of a tech bro. And for all kinds of people, like, you know, how am I feeling? Why is my emotion is like this, like, not even a thing. So like, where? Where do you begin on this path of becoming more emotionally aware?

Justin

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I love talking about this. So basically, you know, my experience was I was an engineer, right? I was a somebody who was always think thought of myself as like, very rational, I thought emotions were not relevant. And I also thought I was very emotionally stable. I remember telling someone that I'm so emotionally stable.

Ali

That's literally what I tell people. (laughs)

Justin

Which was, yeah, it was actually being unaware of what was going on inside me and my emotional state. And so there was like a number of things that I learned. But the way it started, the reason I started thinking even about this was, I just got so depressed when I was working on one of my startups, it wasn't working. And I got super depressed, and I didn't know it was impeding my ability to be productive. And, you know, the company wasn't working like we wanted it to. And so I went to a therapist. And I was like, I feel so like, I can't like work, and I don't want to get out of bed in the morning. And I just hate what I'm doing. Like, what do I do? And we've talked about eventually it came out, you know, oh, I have this like feelings of guilt. Like I promised all these people, this company's gonna be successful. I promise my employees, the customers, the investors, and I don't feel like I'm delivering on that promise. And so I have this guilt inside and I'm feeling guilty. Like it's being paralyzing in my experience. And so, I had this experience. And one of the tips that my therapist told me to try was she suggested that I try just when I feel that feeling, instead of saying I needed to go away, which is what I was doing, I was like, Oh, I feel guilty. I need to go away. So I go get [...] and, you know, drink myself to like, blackout. [...] I watched hours and hours of Netflix or something, you know, anything to just distract me from my current present moment experience. She said, hey, instead of that, why don't you just sit with it, and see how it feels and notice it in the body. And I later learned this is a mindfulness technique, right? This is a meditation technique. At the time, I just thought it was like a tactic to avoid or to like, deal with my experience. And then I noticed when I started doing that, and I just sat with it. Oh, I feel this guilt. It's in my chest. It feels like somewhere between my lungs and my stomach. And it's a little bit like a buzzing or tension. And like, I could say, oh, what does that feel like? It was I kind of zoomed in on it actually dissipates. Like the human body is not designed to hold emotions for extended periods of time, you actually need to be in it by re triggering yourself through overthinking. You know, when you're angry, you're going to let that go, like something might happen, you get cut off in traffic, you get angry immediately, because that's it. That's a hormonal reflex, right? Like in your brain and you get like cortisol in the brain, you're like, stressed out, this is a survival mechanism for you. But then if you in that you have two choices, you can like, sit with it, and like, let it go. Or you can reactivate yourself, right? You'll say, oh, that guy fucking cut me off. And like, he's such an asshole. He's probably like, you know, laughing at me or whatever, just like, your mind will just make up reasons and you'll re anger yourself. Right? And then you can get caught in the spiral. And then, you know, could last for potentially forever, right? For days or whatever. And that's kind of how I got started. And then eventually, I realized, you know, I learned more about motion. And I had a lot of great teachers and mentors in this area. And I started to see emotions as they're not like illogical, you know, I thought they were so illogical. And they like, if I was rational, like a true, you know, engineering tech bro, I would like just transcend them and be like Spock or something like that. And I realized, I learned, like, emotions aren't illogical, emotions are an adaptive response, you know, like, adaptive behavior, right? There's a mechanism for you to survive, right? If you feel different emotions, like are indicators that you should do different things differently. Like having, if you feel anger, it's like, something's wrong right now. And I need to do something right now. And it's an impetus to do that. We feel, you know, guilt or anxiety about the future, anxiety is like, oh, something in the future is going to be wrong. And I need to worry about that now, right? So these are actually can be helpful to you, right. And that's why we have emotions. But, you know, when I started to see them as it's like, I have this mental model, or like a, like emotional model, and it's taking in all the data sources from the outside world, and then creating this emotional response, which is actually data for, like, how I want to be in the world, and what I might need to do in the future, or presently to do, you know, make things better for me. And when I started to see that and see it as like, oh, it's not something to be fixed. It's just something part of the human experience. And I can just accept that. And I can say, Oh, I have anxiety, or I am angry sometimes or I feel sad sometimes. I also feel joy and excitement, then it was the first step in just being able to be

Ali

Okay, that's very interesting that sort of sounds almost conflicting with like, the traditional, what I understand to be like the Stoicism Approach, which is, which would be, you know, along the lines of, you know, you want to minimize your deviation from tranquility, as much as possible. And, yes, if you feel like guilt about something, or if you feel sadness about something, you might have that flash of sadness, or anger or whatever, which you can't control. But then everything else is, as you said, kind of the story that you're telling yourself about it. And the way that I've kind of approached this in the past is, I'm feeling bad about this thing. Okay, cool. Why am I feeling bad about this thing? Oh, it's because I was addicted that person and okay, cool, I will apologize to them and found not to be addicted that person again in that same way. And then I'm like, cool, I should now not feel bad about this thing anymore. And even though there will still be some residual bad feelings, I'd be like, well, you know, this is irrational at this point. Because I've done the bit that's in my control. I've done what I can do, I'm not going to make the mistake again. So why am I still feeling bad? Yeah, is that something you used to have at all? Still do?

Justin

Well, I would say I still have it. And I don't think that, you know, kind of that Stoic philosophy that you talked about. And what I was saying was, is actually in conflict at all, I think, there, you know, I, you are going through a process of taking that data and then releasing it, but of course, it's not perfect, like the human body's not a machine. So it might take some time. But I think what you'll probably have noticed is since you've been doing that technique, you've been able to process your emotions and move on faster than if you were not kind of going through that process. And you were just like re triggering yourself, you know, or feeling guilty over and over because you didn't want like, actively thinking about, like, what does this mean for me? And then like, how do I process it and move on.

Ali

So the vibe of the therapist, [...] Giving yourself space to feel the emotion is not the same as fixating on the emotion and like a sort of exaggerating it?

Justin

No, no. I think oftentimes when we fixate on it, we're unconscious of our emotion, but we're thinking, it's like the thinking process is like, going in overdrive, right? We're saying like, oh, I feel so guilty and but I'm not thinking about that guilt. I'm thinking now I'm like, oh, I need to do something else. So I can distract myself or I'm like, really thinking about like, oh, if I like in the past, if I made these sorts of different decisions, like I would have done things differently. I wouldn't feel this way today and like, I should have like done A, B and C things like I should have started a different company, I should have not raised money from investors, I should not hire these employees. You know, and then I'd be like, retriggering myself, you know, I'd be like, oh, I can't believe I did it. I'm so stupid. I'm an idiot, I'd be like such a bad founder, I'd like my identity, you know, all these stories, I just be telling myself these stories over and over again, instead of being present with my emotion, you know, I'd say, okay, what's that feel like? And like, why? What's that about? And being curious about it, I'd be really trying being avoidant about it in a way. And so I think that's the kind of subtle distinction, you know, it's not about being like guilty, you know, saying, like, this is guilt is great. And I'm trying to, like, feel it, [...] and just only be guilty. You know, like, you're, I think it's more about acknowledging that you feel that way. And really understanding what is the experience of it, and then that is the first step of letting it go of my experience

Ali

Ah, okay, that's very interesting. Yeah. This is something that like, quite a few friends of mine have said to me that they've been like, Look, you, you put on this front of like, being like an emotionally stable, stoic type person, but really, it's just because you're not feeling your emotions, and your not like acknowledging them. And I was always been like, maybe there's something to that. And I've been toying with the idea of seeing a therapist or something. I don't know. I imagine you would say it's been, it's been a good, it's been a good experience for you.

Justin

For sure. I mean, I recommend therapy to everybody, you know, even if you're well, I think it's very cathartic to have someone to talk to, and it's a mirror for yourself, you know, it's just another tool for you to learn more about yourself. So definitely a pro therapy. You know, this, I'm, this tool itself is a meditation tool. And I'm, I definitely recommend, I think meditation has been the most important skill I've ever learned in my life. So I definitely recommend meditation and also as a tool for people.

Ali

That was something I was gonna talk to you about, because last time we spoke, you said that you, yeah, you thought you were very bullish about the idea of meditation. And it's something that I've been meaning to try for a while. And I've read—"Waking Up" by Sam Harris.—And I keep on thinking, I should probably start meditating. And then I feel like, for me, it feels like, like timing is never right. And like, oh, well, if I'm going to do it, I should commit to doing it for like, 30 days in a row. And then the thought of committing to it for 30 days in a row starts to feel like oh, well, I don't know. How should I start? On the path to meditation and someone who's been there?

Justin

Well, I think the first thing you should do is just make it really easy for yourself to adopt. I think this goes for any new habit. So I would make it the easiest possible. For me, I was saying, Okay, I'm gonna meditate for two minutes a day. And like, that's my goal. There's really no excuse to like, not do two minutes, I could be very tired at the end of the day at 11:58PM and sit for two minutes. Like yesterday, you know, I meditated a lot now, but yesterday, I didn't have very much time. And I only meditated for five minutes. And I still counted it. I sat I you know, I put in the effort. You know, you really want to focus on systems and frameworks and not outcomes, in order to, you know, adopt habits. It just makes it. So it's, you know, it's a much easier, it's a much more gentle onboarding. So I mean, that's the first thing I would do is set a really low bar. I think, for me, starting with an app really helped, you know, I was using Headspace. And then I used Sam Harris's app—"Waking Up"—And, you know, I said, I'm gonna meditate every day. And then, well, first I actually just said, I'm gonna meditate today. And then the next day, I said, I can't meditate today, I'm just gonna try to make the longest string of unbroken, you know, meditations in a row and see what happens. I didn't have any expectation at first. You know, can I just do two minutes, and then two minutes and two minutes. And so that's what really what worked for me was just a very gentle onboarding, and then having some faith that, you know, I saw enough friends of mine get benefits that I said, Okay, if I stick with this in the framework, right? If I say, Okay, I'm just gonna try to meditate a little bit every day, then eventually, something good is gonna happen. And I don't need to actually create a tight feedback loop of like saying, okay, how do I feel today? Do I feel better? Right now, at this exact moment, you know, it wasn't about that. I think of like, I think of wellness habits as filling a bucket, and you're filling it one drop at a time. You know, if you put in every time you meditate for two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, whatever it is, you're putting one drop in the bucket, and it's slow, but eventually you're gonna have a full bucket. You know, it's kind of, you need a little bit of faith, but it's also quite obvious that eventually it will work. If you just put enough drops in that bucket, you'll eventually be full.

Ali

Okay, so what would you say are the benefits that you've gotten from meditation, and I appreciate that this is often hard to like, articulate. And this is something Sam Harris talks about in the book as well that like anyone who talks about this sort of stuff, if you've not experienced it, you're gonna think they sound a bit like woowoo but how would you like how would you sell meditation to like a tech pro friend of yours who's a bit skeptical about it?

Justin

Yeah, the way I would say it is meditation for me, has made me much more accepting of my present moment experience, whatever it is, whether it's great, it's joyful. You know, it's easy to accept that in your daily life, but also whether when they're difficult experiences, I feel guilty or angry, or something that I perceive of as bad happens. And so for me, it's like, meditation is, you know, I say, it's the most important skill I've ever learned. Because I feel like I'm no longer fighting against my experience. People call that in the meditation world is called Equanimity, right? Acceptance. And I used to fight against my experience constantly, like when I would feel guilty, I'd be like, I can't feel this way. And then I would go get drunk, or I would go drown myself in watching media and YouTube. Or when I would feel anxiety, I feel like I can't, you know, I want to get rid of this feeling. Or if I was even in an uncomfortable physical situation, I was like, very against it. You know, I was like, I don't want to do this. I hated cardio, for example, because I just couldn't be I hated being in a physical situation that was uncomfortable. So any form of discomfort, I really ran away from. Post meditation, so I noticed changes were gradual. After 30 days, I noticed some changes. After 6 months, I notice some changes. After 2 years, I've noticed some changes. But when I post starting my meditation practice, I saw oh, I can be in these uncomfortable situations. And that's okay. Like, I don't need things to be different. And it really culminated for me when, about a year ago, I've been meditating for 10 months, I think. And about a year and a half. Like 15 months ago, I broke both my elbows, like in a bicycle accident, I went head over my handlebars, and it slammed both elbows, bam, and I broke this one, I shattered my radial head. And I broke this one. And it was just, it was a fracture, actually, on this side. So for a couple days, I couldn't use either hand, I couldn't use either arm, like, literally, I was like armless. And my wife is cutting my food and feeding me and pulling my pants up. And I asked myself every day, I was like, do I wish this was different? Do I wish things were different? And the answer for me was always no, which was very surprising, actually. But I know, it's not the way that I would have dealt with that situation in the past, but it was picking on I really attribute that to meditation. So that's my sale. That's my sales pitch.

Ali

Okay, right. I am definitely gonna try this out. I've been trying to do this, like 30 day experiments for the YouTube channel, whereby, in January, it was taping my mouth shut while I'm asleep. And so that worked out. And then February is learning how to freestyle rap. So I'm in the middle of that right now. And then I think this is gonna be the experiment in March, the meditation thing, because like, literally everyone, like everyone says, it's like the best thing ever. And basically, like, I feel like 90% of people who've been on the Tim Ferriss show, say, it's like meditation is the best thing ever had. I've been telling myself for years that there must be something to it. Like, I really need to give this a shot.

Justin

Yeah, I think there's some, you know, there are some incredible benefits. Let me know how it can support you in your meditation journey.

Ali

Nice. Yes, I'll drop you a message if I need a hand along the way. But this little soundbite we've just got will be very nice as like, I spoke to Justin Carden. He convinced me to meditate. And here's how it's going. Let's see. Let's see what happened. Have you ever tried yoga?

Justin

Yeah, so I love yoga.

Ali

Really? Okay. What's the deal with yoga? Because that's on my list of things I should probably try because people say it's good.

Justin

Yeah, yoga was another thing where I thought it was stupid. And my mom, my mom has always been into all these spiritual things, and was always pitching me on them. You know, she was pitching me yoga, like 20 years ago, she was like, you should do yoga. And I was like, that's like, for hippies. It's like, that's stupid. And then she was pitching me meditation, and I get everything, right? So, but I started doing yoga a couple years ago, when my yoga practice was unfortunate because of my elbows has taken a nosedive in the last couple of months. But I was, you know, yoga was another thing where I started working on my flexibility and doing yoga and I just felt great after the sessions, you know, after doing a yoga course, you know, I'm a very basic yoga student, right? Like I was going to like core power yoga and other stuff like that. And so, but it was just I felt great, you know, and I'm a big believer in exercise. I try to exercise every day, whether it's just stretching or some sort of other more intense workout and I felt I could just feel it, you know, feel the difference for me.

Ali

Okay, do you think of yoga as like a minimum effective dose to get benefits type thing or is it more of, have you got a more like Zen approach to it, if that makes sense?

Justin

I think it started it for more than like tech bro [...] where I was like, okay, I'm gonna work out every day. And Yoga is like a great workout. And I could feel it, the feel, how good it is, you know, immediately after. And then the second thing that really helped was, you know, when you're doing yoga, you can't really be on your phone. And I think a lot of times when I'm like doing anaerobic like a lift, or I'm like on my exercise bike, like, I'll be on my phone. And so there is a nice component of disconnecting, I guess my overall philosophy on human beings is that we're all running the resource scarce algorithm in the resource abundant world, right? So I'm like, off, like, for example, I'm addicted to my phone, because I am information greedy, because in the, you know, kind of hunter gatherer world, it's like, better to like learn things, you know, and get as much information as possible, that's adaptive, and so, but like, when you have access to the entire internet, on, you know, in all of YouTube and Twitter, on your phone at any time, then you could just, like, look at it endlessly. And so, for me, I try to figure out ways to create breakpoints or like ways of like, there's no time that I'm kind of not exposed to, or not exposing myself to, you know, whatever it is that kind of like the addictive thing that I want to get as much of as possible which, whether it's like information on the phone or food or, you know, whatever. And I try to create mechanisms in my life to like, avoid, or to produce, you know, exposure at certain points. So, I think Yoga is a great one for you know, when it comes to like, digital addiction.

Ali

Yeah. Okay. We've got quite a few comments in the chat from people commenting that your voice feels very Zen and like therapeutic. [...] Mine like, right? Has it always been like that? Or is it like a mic plus meditation plus yoga type thing recently that you've got this sort of, yeah, sage vibe about you.

Justin

We've always had the voice, the vocal cords, which, you know, I think, I get, I've always wanted to be a radio announcer. And I think part of why like having a podcast, you know, I have this podcast called "The Quest", about, you know, people's journeys through life and the ups and downs of successful people. And I think one of the reasons I love having a podcast is that it is this way to live out my college age fantasy of being a radio DJ. But um, I think I did, you know, a couple months into my meditation journey, one of my friends, I went to dinner with a friend of mine, and he was he said, wow, you are ways and, you know, you feel like so calm, compared to maybe the energy I had before. And I do think that, you know, part of this journey is probably maybe a lot. Like, I come that expresses itself through my voice is like, kind of the equanimity that I think I've gained. Or, you know, the way I've moved more towards equanimity from wherever I was before, which was not equanimist at all.

Ali

Okay. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, I hope I too can become a bit more Zen once I start doing the meditation thing. Have you listened to the Brandon Sanderson audiobooks by any chance?

Justin

You know, I've never listened to his audiobooks. I'm not a big audio book guy. Yeah.

Ali

Yeah. So the audiobooks are game changing. I'd recommend them 100% because I made the mistake.

Justin

Does he read them?

Ali

No, it's these two other narrators called Michael Kramer and Kate Reading, who are just like amazing. And Michael Kramer almost sounds kind of like you is he's got a very kind of life before death, strength before weakness journey before. Like, it's a very epic, kind of, it's so good. And I've literally had those two narrators in my airports for the last four years, starting with Mistborn. And then Storm Light and then the Wheel of Time series. And yeah, you give me kind of audiobook narrator vibes as well. So I just thought I'd throw that in there.

Justin

Well, I would, I want to eventually, one day I'll narrate an audio book, I have a book, I want to write my own book and I want to, you know, kind of have to narrate your own book.

Ali

Of course, it's got to be done. What's your book gonna be about?

Justin

It's a bit about my experience, going through this journey of, you know, seeking being a seeker and wanting to really kind of chasers had put it in like really trying to make in the outside world and satisfy all my needs through extrinsic things in the world. So really trying to have a successful startup and be famous on the internet and getting that in a way and finding it ultimately, a little empty. And then what I found afterwards with meditation and gratitude and connection with the people around me and those are kind of the things that I found value now you know, more than having a big startup or becoming whatever that's what I wrote most of it I just need to it's in editing right now.

Ali

Oh, exciting. When is it? When's it coming up? Have you...

Justin

I want to build up my, my goal is actually to be like Jay Shetty. I want to like have a super popular YouTube and then release a book and then the books gonna like, blow up right? Yeah, cuz if I'm like popular on YouTube and Tiktok and online, then like, people will buy the book, I think marketing a book when you don't have your own distribution channel is like an uphill battle, you know?

Ali

Yeah, this is exactly the thing I'm kind of working on right now. And I keep on looking to Jay Shetty as being like, the perfect example of how to do this really, really well, where like, you know, instant number one New York Times list million copies in three months. And this is partly what I was talking to Brandon about this morning is like with the book that I'm writing, I have this, like, I really want it to be big. And I really want it to be like a New York Times bestseller. And I know that, like for me, for me right now, at the moment. I'm like, you know, some kid from the UK, who happens to have a reasonably big YouTube channel, who happens to be a doctor. Whereas if you add, like, a really good book to that, it's like would level up my own kind of brand and opportunities and all this stuff in a way that few other things do. But I am torn between that kind of very goal directed mindset and more of a Zen kind of, well, I'm very satisfied with how my life is right now. And I know that hedonic adaptation is a thing. And I know that success isn't going to bring me lasting happiness, and how would you think about those two conflicting things of I've got this, like, very specific, very worldly goal with, I also want to, like enjoy the journey and have fun and like, be satisfied with where I am?

Justin

I think those things exist in every human right, I think you can. My meditation teachers is like very specific, he's always saying, oh, it's okay to have goals, right? It's okay to have goals, it's good to have goals. So I think you can have goals, but you know, I would just ask yourself, like, where is this coming from? Like, am I coming from a place of scarcity? Where I need something in the outside world to be a certain way? Or am I coming from a place of joy, where I would write this book, because I love to write. And because it's cathartic for me, it's you know, it's a joyful experience for me in some way. And that's kind of how I filter everything now, like, okay, am I coming from a place of scarcity? Or am I coming from a place of joy? And it's not always clear, you know, sometimes it takes like some thinking about it, and trying to get some insight to figure it out. But for me, you know, writing I love, I actually love to write and that love and I love to create, I love to like make videos. And that love is, like dampened a little bit when I'm trying to do it just for like, to get a lot of views or to get a lot of, you know, reads. And so I try to filter everything that I create, through like, okay, am I just, what would I do if nobody read it? Or watched it? Like, you know, and then just make that, and then if, you know, I still have a goal. So I'm still learning like, like with YouTube and Tiktok, right? It's like, I still want to put it out there and see what the audience response is, and like, hey, could I do something better? You know, in a certain way, could I explaining this message or telling a story? Could I do it better? And so there's, like, learning and the goal is a goal of like, okay, I want to grow it. But it's not like I'm coming from this place of scarcity. And I don't have to it doesn't have the world doesn't have to be any kind of way, you know?

Ali

Yeah that makes sense. It's like, what would it be like? Because if I think about this journey of writing the book, I would do it anyway, even if it doesn't do very well. If it doesn't do very well, in terms of in terms of sales figures, because it would be fun. And it would be interesting, and it would be an interesting adventure. And it's already has been like a really cool way to connect with people. Because when you say you're writing a book, it lets you connect to people in a way that it's harder to if you're just like a random dude. And that's kind of what my that's what my writing coach kind of has beenbeen talking to me about recently. Because I think recently I was a little bit too outcome focused in that I'd be like, oh my god, I need to get a New York Times bestseller and like, oh my god, I need to have an audience or my audience isn't as big as Jay Shetty it's like what am I gonna do? It's sort of like that fixation on the outcome stopped the process from being fun. And my writing coach was like, look Ali, the only reason you're writing this book is because you want to have fun, so make sure you have fun. And I was like, oh my god. Yes, you're right. And just thinking in that way, just sort of helped me think of it more as kind of like a game that I'll play the game sincerely, because it's fun, but I'll still just treat it as a game.

Justin

Yeah, absolutely. One of my best friends likes to tell say, you know, comparison is the thief of joy, which is a quote from some famous monk or something, right? When you think about things in the context of like, oh, I'm trying to be the best and win against these other people. The Jay Shetty is of the world or like, I'm worried about how I'm doing compared to him. You know, there's endless people to compare yourself to, no matter who you are, there will always be someone else out there. But when you think about things, in terms of like, hey, is this making me happy at this right now? Like, am I having fun doing this? Am I, is this joyful to do this, then I think you'll approach life in a manner that doesn't constantly trigger your anxieties.

Ali

Oh, we have Noah Kagan in the chat. Hey, Noah. He says Ali and Justin, back at it again.

Justin

Amazing. Noah, I just watched the videos that we did together of, we did live ones on on Twitch and Clubhouse and it's pretty fun.

Ali

Nice. Yeah, so on that note of like the comparison thing, I was speaking to another, another internet friend. And he was saying, okay, like, Where do you want this book to go? Like, you know, assuming all your dreams may come true blah, blah, blah. And the book happens where will you be five years from now once the book is out? And I said something like, well, you know, books a bestseller and is doing really well. And then I'm gonna get invited to speak at conferences, and it's kind of cool. And, you know, I think I'd still like to just put out loads of stuff on YouTube. And I'd probably like open source all of my courses and stuff, because at that point, I'll be a multimillionaire and I won't need to make money. And he was like, oh, haha, that's not gonna happen. Like this guy, like knows, people like you, who are like, successful and sort of startup founders and exits, and like big famous authors. And he says that everyone is still chasing money in like a weird way. And so don't kid yourself that you are suddenly going to be sort of altruistic giving away everything for free. What's your take on that? Because I imagine, you know, a lot of like, rich people who are still chasing money. How does that work?

Justin

Sure, yeah, most of the rich people I know are still chasing money, and which is why they're in some way they're successful. Right? Like, it's an, you know, the desire to accumulate serves you, right? Until it doesn't anymore. And so my take is like everybody comes to that in their own time. Like, maybe they do, maybe they don't, but if they do come to, you know, releasing the need to like, accumulate more, it's usually not because of an external circumstance, but it's much more because of an internal one, right? It's not because they achieved x, right? When I got, when we sold Twitch, it was like, I remember the beginning, I was talking to my co-founder, Michael, and I said, if we could each make a million dollars from this company, and Justin [...] and the company that turned into Twitch, then that would be incredible. Right? We were 22. So I was like, that would be fucking incredible. And he was like, Oh, my god, that was like, that idea was like crazy. We blew by that, you know, we, five years later, after they had that conversation, we sold [...] for $60 million that we'd spun out. And then, you know, a couple years after that, we sold Twitch for $970 million. So there was kind of we saw it incrementally. We kept blowing by that and going by it. And you know, that had nothing to do with my as soon as we sold Twitch it was like, Oh, that's my new normal. And then I was looking at my friends who saw Dropbox or Airbnb, and I was like, but we should be doing much better. And so, you know, the external circumstances had nothing to do with changing my perspective. Well, I think what helped me change my perspective was, well, first, I was like, very stressed. And then I would, you know, because I was trying to accumulate more, and then I was, like, really fixated on it. And I started doing these other things like meditation, keeping a daily gratitude journal, stuff like that, to like, recontextualize, my experience. And then I had a number of experiences where I kind of like looked at myself in the mirror, I was like, why do I want this? So I sat in Ayahuasca ceremony for the first time, a couple years ago. And I realized through these visions that I had, that my entire life I had been doing things in a performative way. Like performing for other people. And everything I had done, my entire adult life was just to get the approval to people, either around me or random people on the internet or whatever, like that's why I wanted to be a famous founder. It's not like having more money, or like, start a bigger company, right? Like having more money is not going to make any material impact in like, how I live my daily life. But why do I want more? Oh, well, it's because then if I get more then people will be like, wow, that guy's so successful. He did it again. He's like, you know, he's Jeff Bezos level, whatever it is, right? And so that, you know, I realized all of that about myself. And I was living out these like, desires from my past, like, you know, scars from when I was a kid, when I felt like I didn't get enough attention, or the approval, my peers or whatever. And I was living that out. And then that was the cycle. And then I could choose, oh, do I want to do something different? I had another experience a little later, where I really felt a spiritual presence. You know, this sounds like some woowoo shit, but like, I was like, I was meditating, I felt the presence of God. And I thought, what would be a life that would be reflective of this experience right now? And I realized that I had for 36 years of my life, I'd spent, I put myself at the center of it. And I'd always done things for me to like, feed my ego to be more, so I could be more successful, I could get more attention, whatever it was, and then I realized, oh, you know, I could choose to do something different for the next 30-60 years of my life, you know, the second half of my life, I could choose to do something different. And maybe I could choose to try to be helpful to other people, you know, like, that would be a good start, right? And so, I think those were kind of some of the experiences that led me to maybe try to reprioritize a different path.

Ali

So moving from being very being sort of focused focused on yourself to now. So is your drive now based around helping others? Or like how do you think about like what to do with life like now for the second half of it?

Justin

Yeah, I think I primarily motivated by helping other people. And I know people will say, oh, well, you spend so much time on YouTube and Tiktok try to build your like social media but like, the thing I like, is I love creating number one. But I also love to help other people. And I think the things I'm most proud of in my life are. So last night, I got a text from a founder who just raise money at a billion dollar evaluation. And he was like, thank you, Justin for believing in me. Because he was my I was his YC partner. And I had invested him at YC. I invested personally in the company, and I helped him get some early clients and stuff like that. And he was like, thanks for believing in me, like, you get so much credit for this. And I'm like, I should get no credit first of all. But for me like that, you know, almost like more than whatever I you know, I did invest in a company, so I'll make some money off of it eventually. But like more than that, it's like, the fact that he out there is like that Justin helped me when I needed help. And that's like something I'm really proud of, like more than Twitch, it's like those experiences and there's, you know, accumulated quite a lot of them now in my life, which I'm very thankful for. But there's a lot of people out there, you know, in Silicon Valley now and otherwise, who are like, well, Justin helped me in some way or said something at a critical moment. Like I remember at a conference, I keep telling this story, it's like, probably sounds like a humble brag or something. But like, I talked about therapy, like a lot, like we talked about in this conversation, and I was at a conference before the pandemic, and this founder came up to me, and he was like, thank you, I started seeing a therapist, because you talk about it on Twitter, I was like, that is mind blowing, and awesome. You know, and so, you know, it's those types of moments that I really get a lot of value out of, and really make me feel like I'm, you know, like, a good life for me now. I was like, did I do right by the people around me? Did I was like kind? That contribute to the people, you know, to people's lives? And if the answer to those things is yes, then that I feel like I did good. You know.

Ali

Do you get like, do you feel is it are there diminishing returns when you get those sorts of text messages? Because what I'm thinking about is, like when I first started my YouTube channel, and I got messages on Instagram, from students saying that, Oh, my God, I loved your videos, they help me get into med school, that feels really good. But when you get like 101 messages from the students all around the world, like each week, saying basically the same thing, as much as I try and remind myself that, okay, this is a real, real life personal thing. And my stuff is helping them and this is cool. Like, I think that the scope and sensitivity, like it's very different, having an [...] in front of you versus, you know, people on the internet, how does that work with you?

Justin

I agree with you, I think, well, first of all, I'd say like, yes, there is hedonic adaptation to that as well. But it's way better than, like, it's I think it's slower acting than Hedonic Adaptation to money. So, you know, one is just a number. The other is like, there's, you know, at least comments attached to that those numbers, right? Like, but the second thing I'll say is that, I that's why I think it's important to do service and to connect with people in person, right? Like it because that is like the least, hedonically adaptive, right? So for me, it's like, that's a personal message. This isn't someone random on the internet, right? Who was texting me last night, this is someone who I've had hours of conversation with, I've done personal service for in a way, you know, I can help them. And so it was much more meaningful than like, if some, you know, when a random founders like, hey, you know, you said this thing that like helped me sell my company, because something you wrote, you know, it's less of that personal connection. So, you know, that's I try to, that's why I like being an investor is because it's a chance to advise and mentor people where I'll have a personal relationship.

Ali

Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What you just said, reminds me of a question, a question I've been thinking of recently. So I've been working with a kind of performance slash productivity coach guy, who's big on like, the whole, like, what's the point of all of this? Where's your life going? That kind of stuff. And one of the questions he asked, right at the beginning, when we started working together was, what would you want written on your gravestone? What would you want said at your funeral? I was like, okay, that's, that's interesting. And in the past, I would have been like, oh, this is woowoo, I'm not gonna think about this. I was like okay, you know what, I'm gonna give this a chance. And the thing I landed on for the for the gravestone thing was some combination of good father, good husband, and inspirational teacher was like the third, the third strand of that. And I was quite surprised by this because, like, sort of surprised and not surprised, surprised because, like there was nothing about being like a doctor who saved lots of lives, like I realize that sort of thing, didn't really give my life any meaning. And obviously, there wasn't anything like, oh, he made loads of money, and he had loads of followers, which is, even though that's like the, the short term thing that I've been chasing and continued to chase. And at the same time, I was like, okay, this kind of makes sense. Because the times in my life where I felt the most fulfilled, has been have been when teaching other people, usually when teaching medical students in real life, to an extent I'm doing like live courses on Zoom and stuff, and that feels good, just not as good as like doing it in real life. And so I feel like optimizing, optimizing for teaching and like reaching other people and stuff is probably the way to go. But then there's still an element of like..

Justin

I was like, you figure it out. I love that.

Ali

But there's still an element of like, well, then if that's what I care about, then why am I still chasing money? Like, why do I want a New York Times bestseller? Like, that's just stupid, right? I should care about like, in a way long term booksales matter, because then that means your book hits more people. And the New York Times list is such a sort of one to one snapshot in time, how much firepower can you put behind like, the pre orders and week one sales with book, it's this thing, this tension between, I know that being a teacher is what I love and what I care about. But at the same time, there's all these other like, status and, you know, 2 million subscribers, and then 3 million subscribers in the New York Times and these other kind of badges of achievement.

Justin

Well, you know, what I would say to you is just, the first thing is like, that's a human. That's the human experience, right? Like you, it's okay to like want things in the outside world. That's part of like, your natural experience. And that's an adaptive trait that all human beings have. And then the question is, just to me, it's like, Are you being driven by that primarily? Or, like, once again, are you coming from a place of joy? And I think that you just, it's not black or white. It's not binary, right? Some of the time you're gonna wake up, like, some of the time I wake up, and I check how many YouTube subscribers I have. You know, I'm like, okay, I want to grow it. I'm not like, I'm not a saint, right? But some of the time, but it's just like, I constantly re checking them on myself, like, oh, why am I doing this? Like, am I creating videos? Because I like, I'm having fun with it, because I feel like I can teach someone something? Or am I creating videos because I just want to be like, make this number go up? And you know, if the answer is the latter too many too much n the row, I'm gonna stop. Right? But it's not going to be 100% always the former, right? It says some somewhere in the middle. In the past, if I was honest with myself, I was primarily it was primarily the latter, right? But like now, it's primarily the former. And I think that's just a good shift. And so, you know, it's not, it's not black and white. But I think it's important to accept yourself first, as a first step, however you are.

Ali

How is having kids changed your view? And sort of like driver motivation? Worldview type thing, if at all?

Justin

Yeah, well, I think having a kid really helped me. Like, it was good. Well, I mean, having a kid is like amazing for all these different reasons. Do you have a kid?

Ali

No, no. But I'm curious about the phenomenon of having kids. Yeah.

Justin

Yeah. So for me, having a kid is like, really [...] Someone told me it will round out the human experience for you. And I really feel that way. Like it's, it's a part of your heart and like love that you did not know existed before. So for that reason alone, I think having kids is incredible. But it's also very difficult. I don't want to like undersell that having a kid is like probably the most difficult thing I've ever done. The thing I'll say though is like I'm really glad that I did all this personal self work before I had a kid, because I think he will be set up for so much more success in a way. And I don't mean success in the traditional way. But like when I look at people with, like, what I was, when I was growing up, I was jealous of the kids who, you know, there was something there's the security of like. Like my mom was like an immigrant she came in, she's like, came to this country, like to the United States with nothing, my dad was pretty poor growing up. And there, you know, my mom had a scarcity mindset, right. And she was like, I think I learned some of those traits, which is why I want to be rich and make a lot of money whenever one of the reasons. And so I would see peers of mine whose parents were pretty successful. And it wasn't that they were passing on you know like a drive for like making money, but they were they kind of had created this, like safe environment where their kids, you know, were really supported, right? Like, kind of in all across all these different dimensions. And when I think about my kid and what I want to, what success to me, it's like, did he grow up to be a kind person? You know, did he grow up to be the source of his own approval in the world? Like he didn't need other people to be the source of his approval? Did he grow up to like, learn how to be empathetic and to connect with people around him? Like, those are the things I care about. I don't give a shit if he's like an entrepreneur successful or like makes a lot of money or has a white collar job at Goldman Sachs or whatever, you know, those are like so I think but I would have like 10 years ago, if I had a kid I would have been like I want him to be like the best entrepreneur or something like that. Right? And so I think I just feel so thankful that I've been able to go on this journey for myself, because I think it'll help me be much, much better father.

Ali

Hmm, that's really interesting. Yeah, that's, so I've got a few friends who was similar in that. They're, like, they're only kind of goal. The only goal that parents had for them was was like, hey, I want my kid to be kind and to be happy. And if I think of like, I don't wanna hit on my mom here. But like, if I think of the messages I got growing up, they they were not the, you know, oh, you know, just focus on being happy, being kind and being empathetic. It was far more the kind of immigrant mentality of work hard, get a good job, get into med school, put your head down, do this, do that, you know, climb, climb the ladder, almost. And I used to be flabbergasted that, like, normally my white friends, like their parents would be like, Oh, you know, it's all good. Just like have fun. I wonder if it's like a yeah, I feel like it does come down to like the sort of scarcity immigrant coming into the country trying to make their way type mindset.

Justin

Yeah, I think, you know, one thing is that, you know, there's an opportunity though, for me, like, at first I was resentful, right? Like, I was like, Oh, my mom, like, you know, kind of all these different ways. But my mom actually was very kind and set an example really caring about the people around her. Like, really clarify that. And she gave you know that I think that I'm very thankful for the things that the lessons I did learn from her about hard work about, you know, the opportunity to like, accumulate in a way, right. I'm thankful for the journey, I've been on whatever it is, like the opportunity to have gone through this startup journey, this amazing journey been successful, accumulate a lot. Has given me put me in a position where I can, you know, focus, it's like almost like a Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Right now I'm like, at the highest self actualization point, but maybe I would never have gotten there if I had been through this journey. Right. And maybe I would never have gone on that journey if I hadn't had some drive to do it from an ego place from an ego motivation. So you know, I am not, I don't wish anything was different. You know, this was they way it was everything unfolded as the way it should. It was supposed to be, and I'm very thankful for the way my parents raised me, you know, but and I should say, I want to do a few things differently with my son.

Ali

Hmm, yeah, I think I'm broadly in the same position. Often if I'm like being interviewed on a podcast or something, and someone says, like, how did you get like the entrepreneurial drive and things like that. I often put it down to the fact that we weren't that rich growing up. And so I always felt a level of oh, it would be cool to make money online. And I want to become an internet entrepreneur. And I want to kind of do my own tech startup kind of, kind of thing. And because of that mindset, and because of that kind of hustle growing up and like learning to code at age 12. And like making all these websites and trying to make pyramid schemes to make money online through affiliate marketing, all of that fun stuff. Got me to the point of like, that I am right now. And so I wouldn't change anything at all. But I think it's like one of those, have you come across that like IQ bell curve meme on like Twitter? It's like, the midwit meme, I think it is what it's called?

Justin

No.

Ali

Oh, okay. So I will describe it to you, it's like, so you've got like, you know, a bell curve of IQ with like, 100 IQ in the middle. And on the, on the low IQ end of the spectrum, you would have like, like the troll face, kind of meme. And you would have like the troll face person. And it might be something like a single handwritten notebook. Okay? And then on the other end of the spectrum, you would have like a Jedi type, you know, the Jedi Master with his hood, with a single handwritten notebook. And in the middle, you would have the midwit with an IQ of 100, who is like, you know, 18 different notetaking apps, every, like five different methods of notetaking under the sun, and it's like, sort of the tears going down their face. Where it's like, there's this like, full circle almost from like, when you're in the middle of it, you're like, full on, like, a certain way. Whereas when you become more of a Jedi Master, you're like, ah, actually, you know, life is pretty simple. And life can be pretty good. But you have to, in a way go through the middle process of being so like, self driven, and like materialistic and stuff to get to that point at the other end. So I think about that a lot, especially in the context of there was like a version of this meme that I did, which was like, the low IQ person is like, nine to five job, mortgage wife and kids. The guy in the middle is like four hour workweek passive income, financial independence, nomadic lifestyle. And then the Jedi Master is a nine to five job, wife and kids mortgage on the house. And I feel like I'm still sort of in that middle guy when it comes to all these sorts of things. And it's a constant struggle to go to go back towards Jedi mindset of like living a more simple and yeah, more simple and primitive life.

Justin

There's this Zen, this chart of kind of like all the different, it's like a circle of all the different stages of Zen and my meditation teacher describes in the final one, it's like something that goes through this like circle of like this guy like taming a bowl, or like, cow or something like that. And like kind of all the different interactions he's having with them that are representative of the states of mind. And then the final one is like, just a shopkeeper in the middle of the town square, right? And people are like, what is this is? It's completely, you know, in Congress, it's basically a different picture. And the idea is represented by it is that, you know, when you really truly truly, truly like that mastery, you're just living a normal life. And like, it's like, completely indistinguishable you know, from the outside. But you're just doing you have equanimity with how things are, you know, and so, that's kind of what it made me think of. Like, the goal is to get all the way around the circle and go back to just that single notebook.

Ali

Nice. A few other things I want to ask you about. So on one of your, I think there was a some sort of like, some Business Insider or something piece about you, where you talked about, you said, only work on things where you have intrinsic motivation. I want like how do you think about, about like, intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation for like, the things that you're doing? That's like, a very broad kind of question.

Justin

Yeah. So So I think in the past, I, you know, people were like, it was most of it's so fun to work on Twitch because video games and whatever. And I was like, I didn't even really like working on video, right? Like, when people were like, you must have like, wanted to work on video, like be a video guy, like on the engineering side, like, monitor. You know, what's been fun work like a multimedia site, right? That's like, I didn't really give a shit about that. When we started JustinTV. I just want to make a shit ton of money. Like, we you know, I'll admit it, right? Like, it's like, I just so for me, it was this aspect of, I wanted to just do things because I was extrinsically motivated get something. And then today, you know, it's because I can keep harping on this. But just goes back to like, what is my joy every day, right? Like, what are the things I love doing, I love talking to founders and meeting founders, and I love learning about new businesses. I love creating content. That's why I like basically, I'm an investor and YouTuber, it's like, those are the things that I actually like, would do for free and have done for free for no money. I mean, I do YouTube free for no money. Like, right, like, so. You know, for me, it's like, that's what, those are the things that's how I think about allocating my time, it's not a perfect, you know, I still end up in meetings and conversations with people where I'm like, I probably wouldn't choose to do this again, you know, but it's, I'm getting triangulating on, you know, more and more kind of doing the things that activate me versus not.

Ali

Yeah, this is sort of one of the thing I want to talk about in this book that I'm working on this idea that initially it was supposed to be a book about productivity. Because that's kind of what I'm known for. I was like, Okay, cool. And the more I thought of it, the more it's like, well, if people ask me, like, how are you so productive? How you do all these things? The main answer is just that I enjoy the vast majority of the things that I do, and when you have fun doing it, it doesn't feel like work and it but it's it sounds so like cliche and trite to say it's like a tweet from [...] or something, you know, find, find something that doesn't feel like work, and then you never have to work a day in your life. But like that's like genuinely what it is. And so I've been, I've been thinking about this, like, what are the different things for you that bring you joy in the work that you're doing at the moment slash gave you joy in the work you were doing in the past? Because even in the past, like, I can't imagine you were so you were fully extrinsic motivation just chasing money, you must have enjoyed some aspect of it. What did that look like for you?

Justin

For sure. So like, when I was starting off, I love to program like the bits of form of creation, right? Like your program or like, it's like figuring something out, you get in flow state. So I used to love to program I think that was one. I love selling, you know, so I like I actually love like, I get a flow state when I'm like really connected to someone in that I understand, like, if you're a good salesperson, and I think I'm pretty good. You know, like, when you're a good salesperson, you're in the zone with that person, you understand what they need, right? You're like in their head with understanding, like, what does this person need? And how can I deliver them what they need, right? And so I love to sell and raising money and recruiting employees. That's all forms of selling, right? And so those were things in my startup that I was very good at. And so, you know, those were things that those were kind of those are things that like I enjoy doing, right? There were a bunch of things in startups I didn't enjoy doing, like managing people, you know, working on a product actually. So then the sort of like very critical things with startup. So like, you know, being a startup founder is not the right fit for me right now. But, you know, that was like then and then today, you know, like I said, it's like, I love to, you know, what about my actual specific work? Well, what I'm like with the founder, and I'm helping them and I feel like I helped them in some critical way, I sometimes I can get a flow state helping people because it's like, activating that part of my brain that's like, Okay, what is, you know, all the patterns I've learned and all the like, I've just like, big mental model on startups. And I can, you know, take an ingest or problem state, and then spit out solutions, and sometimes those solutions, like, really, I'm like, wow, that was fucking genius. this guy got like, the right answer, right? And so that's, like, kind of can be a source of joy for me. And then creating content, like I said, just like trying to content is like sales in a way, right? Like, at least the type of content that I'm creating, which is like, entertainment, right? It's like, okay, how do I like deliver this message in a way that's, like, really resonates with this person. And, or this crowd of people. And to me, that's, that's, it activates that like, flow state part of my brain, you know, and so, I'll go like, you know, like, This week, the past couple months have been really busy since like, December, right? And I'll work like 12 hours a day, or 15 hours a day of like, on my content, or calling people like, I'll be on the phone for 15. Like, I think this week, there was one day I was on the phone for 15 hours, which is exhausting. And I was exhausted at the end of it. But I was, you know, I was activated the whole time. I was like, wow, I'm really happy. I'm in the zone. And so that's what I strive for, you know.

Ali

How do you think of the balance between a fun and satisfaction?

Justin

Well, okay, so I don't know, like, I try to, like, I'm trying to create a situation where I don't have to choose between the two. You know, I guess, sometimes, the trade off is, like, I'm doing things where it's an investment in satisfaction, that's not the most fun. You know, like, sometimes, like, the fifth interview you have you do on YouTube, or something is like not that fun, because you're kind of covering the same stuff. This is a fun one, by the way, because very in depth on these topics I love to talk about. But like, the fifth interview might not be that fun, but it's an investment in like, hey, if I grow my audience, it's gonna be more satisfying to like, speak to like, more people, you know, whatever. And so there's a trade off, I just try to do it intuitively, I don't think I have a formula. I'm like, Okay, what is on the list of things to do? And I try to, you know, I think about, like, I try to maximize the fun and satisfaction. And hopefully, I'm doing tasks that are, you know, that I can have both.

Ali

Okay, if you were giving advice to let's say, someone in their late teens or early 20s, who wants to kind of make it in the world, and this person has this, the thing of, well, you know, fun would be watching Netflix, satisfaction would be kind of like, I don't know, learning to code or working on my startup, or like you writing the blog or things like that. And in a way, like, feel like to get the to get success by the traditional metrics of it. You sometimes, you often have to do a lot of boring things consistently over a long period of time. And if you can make them fun in a way, then that's awesome. But there is still an element of like, putting in the work and like the grind and stuff. How do you think about that side of things? If you were, if you were looking back, like when you were, let's say teenager or early 20s?

Justin

Yeah, I think you know, the people who are successful have a really good executive function, right? They're willing to like make up trade offs to for like, future fun and resources and satisfaction, though really the trade off present moment fun, right? Or like, short term satisfaction, short term, short term gains. So I think that's very important to develop that skill. Right? And so what does that look I mean, that's everything from you know, I'm not eating the junk food right now to the I'm like to invest in setting up this [..] because I'm gonna be able to program later even though like setting up an [..] for everyone who knows, you know, has ever tried it. Like it's horrible. So, you know, I think it's just important to develop that skill for sure. And, like even the last night I'm setting up like this mic and like my teleprompter I don't like I'm not a gearhead I don't really love setting up gear if I had some guy who was like right here with me, setting everything up I'd be like thrilled than actually a friend was helping me so I have to give him credit but like the point is like I was doing it because I was like this is gonna be satisfying when I'm like tomorrow I'm on this like, you know doing this podcast or like the live interview and we're you know, I get to use my like, new awesome setup and if people are like wow, he looks so clear in that.

Ali

Sounds so good.

Justin

Yeah, his voice sounds good. So I you know, that's kind of how I think about is like you got to be willing to make those trade offs if you want to have the satisfaction because all fun with no satisfaction is not a great life. Like, I had moments of that. And you know, after selling Twitch [...] Spend like months, like just traveling or like, just you know, indulging hedonistic, you know, desires and it's like, okay, that gets, you know, it's not it gets old.

Ali

That's like when I was in my fifth year of med school, we do this elective thing where where you go to a different country and you do medicine stuff for a while most people treat it as a sort of two month vacation, which is sort of what me and my friends did. But I found that we were in Cambodia and Vietnam, and just doing vacationing stuff every day wasn't fun. But when we were doing sort of vacation like alternating vacation days with me on my laptop in a coffee shop, doing some UX design for a medical startup. That was like pure bliss, because it was like, you know, work one day the satisfaction, even though it's not like, not pure fun. And then the next day is like pure fun. And then the next day, it's like satisfaction is like this, getting that balance right between like, yeah, the long term satisfaction, the things and the short term fun things. I think it's quite important.

Justin

For sure.

Ali

Cool. So one, one video that I want to do at some point soon is I get a lot of questions, as I'm sure you do about like tips for entrepreneurs or tips for getting started with business, like startup type stuff. And I know you probably get this a lot of like, what would be your like, top tips for let's say, someone in their early 20s thinking, okay, I'm, let's say I'm in I don't know, I'm in medical school, and I'm not really enjoying it. And I know, I want to do some kind of startup thing, because that seems really cool. How would what would be your playbook for getting started for someone who's not in the sort of tech bro ecosystem?

Justin

Yeah, so I guess I have a couple of like, kind of high level tips that apply to almost everyone. Yeah, like number one is like just get started, right? Like you there's a lot of times we'll throw up bears, like, I don't know how to program, I'm not like a [...], I don't have connections, whatever it is, like, the first thing to do is just getting started, the first step is the hardest. And just starting to like, put pen to paper, work on a prototype, you know, recruit people to work on it with you, like whatever those steps are like that is what's gonna give you momentum, I think a lot about managing momentum, either my internal momentum or the momentum of my team, that's helping me and how do you like get the ball rolling on something. Because human beings, whether it's, you know, one or an organization, like are very momentum focused animals like and so if you have momentum around a project, it will continue generally like something that's, you know, that where there's, there's a momentum around, oftentimes, the ideas don't get off the ground, because you have a great idea. But then you just can't find the right person to work with. And then you kind of lose interest, and then that's, it dies. And so I think about getting started is really important, you know, kind of the important first step, and then the second thing I'd say is like, you can figure out how to do anything, if you just make a list, and then break down everything in the list into like lists. And then everything in that list that list like until you have atomic units of work. And so like, you know, that's how we like when we started with JustinTV with like, it was a very daunting idea. I mean, this back in 2006, there was no like, in you know, iPhone, and we're like, how do you create a, we're gonna create a 24/7 live stream, from my life to the, you know, to the Internet, and I was like, I don't know how to do that. Like, that's like, how could we? So when we started making lists, okay, okay, how do you make, like, what we need to research? Like, what kinds of cell phone data connections that are right? Like, that's one step, then there's, like, we need to like, figure out how we get camera footage into a something that can connect to a cell phone data modem, right? Then that's one step, then we need to figure out how to like stream camera footage from like this, you know, from over the modem, we need to write some software for that, then we need to figure out how to like, get that, you know, stream to a server somewhere in the, there was no cloud at the time, right? So we rack out in our own server, and then you know, so on and so forth. And then [...] how do we break that down into like five different things as like, you know, so for the scanning video to the server, it's like, okay, research, whether the flash media servers functional, which it wasn't at the time, or like, it was like a long list of steps. And then but the point is, like, we were able to break down everything that seemed very complicated into atomic units of work, even if we didn't understand it well enough to like, know what we had to build. It could be just like, ask five people who are experts in this industry? How do we would do this, you know, or like, whatever, right, like, research XYZ things. And when I've used that paradigm for breaking down things, like I've been able to build companies in many different areas, right? Whether it's legal tech, or like errand running or video, online video, or, you know, raise a venture fund of $50 million, like, whatever it is, like, you could figure out anything, if you break things down into lists and like component steps. So those are probably my two generalized tips, you know.

Ali

Okay. To what extent do you think it's still important to learn to code for someone like these days?

Justin

I think it's important. I think programming gives you a framework for thinking about the world that like, many people don't have, you know, like, very logical framework. And, you know, it's like learning to read my data and like, you don't have to learn to read. But you should learn to read.

Ali

You probably should.

Justin

Yeah. You don't have to learn to program. Probably should. I think it's like, you know, it's a pretty valuable skill set.

Ali

Cool.

Justin

Or like maybe it's more like being a good writer does, everyone really should learn how to read because like, if you want to function in society, you need to learn how to read, but you don't have to be a good writer to function in society. But if you become a good writer, it's gonna change the way you think. And it's gonna be very valuable in terms of how you communicate with the world, you become a good programmer, it's gonna change the way you think. And it's gonna be very valuable in terms of how you interact with the world.

Ali

Nice. And if someone were to come to you and be like, Justin, I know want to get into the startup thing, but I don't know how to come up with startup ideas. Well, what would you say to that? How does one come up with ideas for like a startup?

Justin

Yeah, I was listening to a Clubhouse with [...] from Gumroad the other day, and he said something I really liked how he framed it, which I've heard before, but he was the most recent person to say it, which is like, look at things that suck in your life. That's a startup idea. Everything that sucks. That's a startup idea. Yeah, basically, a startup idea is taking something that sucks and making it suck less. That's it, whether it's a process, a product, you know, a community, whatever, you know, whatever.

Ali

You know, the way I normally put this, if people ask me, it's like that, that thing about figure out what are the pain points in your life, like what sucks, but I think like, why learning to code is so valuable is that it gives you the framework to know that it is that it would theoretically be possible and how easy it would be to get a solution to the problem. Like when you know how to code and you understand that most apps are just, you know, reading and writing to a database, just that concept completely unlocked so many, like pretty much everything, everything is a database, everything is reading and writing to a database. And you feel like yeah, whereas not knowing how to code is like, you just don't have that, that like mental model for thinking what could be feasible and easy and stuff.

Justin

Yeah, I'll give you an example. Like, when I was in college, I was interning at this law firm. And at the law firm, I was like the IT guy, right? Like I was like IT guy plus a file room, like the guy who fetch things in the physical file room. So it was a small law firm. So I was like, doubling up multiple jobs. And so one of the things that I had to do was one time was a special project, and they were laying out photos for a like to submit into evidence right? From a, you know, there's like 1000 photos, and they were putting them in the way they would do it is they would load them into Microsoft Excel, and then position them so that you could six to a page and then print that page. Right? And then there was like a, you know, we're gonna print like, whatever, 1000 pages, or sorry, 1000 divided by six, right? So like 200 something pages, and then submit that and evidence. So I was like, laying, I was like importing these digital photos, laying them out in Excel, because that was like, the program they had and then printing them. Right? Or like, actually, I put them all at the end. And so I was like, this is fucking terrible. This is like a terrible job. And I did it for like, 10 minutes. And I was like, okay, it's gonna take me literally, like four days to do this. And so I was like, I'm not gonna do that. And I started thinking like, okay, so I started open up Excel macros, right? VBA macros, whatever the basic programming languages in Excel. And I was like, there's got to be a way, you know, you could probably do all this by like, programmatically, so I basically wrote a script, I'm like, well, I told my boss, I was like, Hey, I'm gonna, like, make a code to do this, like, this is their program. This is like stupid. And she's like, don't waste your time. That's like, that's never gonna work. That's stupid. And I was like, Okay, well, I'll just go back, and I'll do it on my desk. Like, just lay it out. I didn't tell her. So I'm there. And I like program this thing in like, two hours, right? Like, imports, the photo, like goes down the directory imports the next photo, like puts it on this page, like, goes, you know, etc, right? And then resizes it or whatever. And so, like, literally scripted this, and then I just fucking ran that program. I took the next four days off, like this, you know, the ability to harness technology to use to, like do the thing that you want to do in the world is that's leverage, right? It's like so valuable. And if you're not teaching yourself how to use one of these tools, then you are thieving this tremendous, like the most important tool that we've ever created as human beings. You're like, leaving that on the table.

Ali

Yeah, that's a nice story of like, a really good example of applying the principles of coding to something tedious in real life. Yeah, this used to be like my strategy for like, the reason I went to medical school rather than doing computer science, even though I really like to code and stuff when I was younger, is that I thought that it would be more interesting to be a doctor who knows how to code than to be just a computer scientist who knows how to code, because as a doctor who knows how to code, there's probably less competition in terms of coming up with sort of innovations within healthcare because healthcare is especially in the UK is like a notoriously non technical kind of field. And, yeah, I'm just so glad that I had that kind of insight when I was like 16 to go down this route, and it ended up not really working that way. Like I'm not working in a medical tech startup right now. But I think the way that my life was moved, moved forward in that direction, by being a tech pro plus a medical student, really helped me ultimately start YouTube, which because I started YouTube as like a content marketing engine for my business, which was based around getting people into med school through a SAS like question bank that me and my brother wrote. And it was obviously kind of weird, weird stuff that, you know, you were like, the chain reaction of one thing leads to another leads to another gets to the point of being here. But it all really started when I learned to code aged 12, because I wanted to make money online. And, yeah, one of the best decisions ever.

Justin

Awesome. I love that. I love that story.

Ali

Changing gears back to, back to what we were talking about originally, which is what I personally care about more than startups these days. What's the deal with gratitude journaling? You've mentioned that a couple of times, and I've heard few things about it. But like, what does that look like for you? Yeah, so

Justin

Yeah, so I have this app, Five Minute Journal. And then every day I open this app, and it asked me, what are three things you're grateful for? And then there's like, what are three things you're going to do to make today great. And then affirmations. And I just fill that out takes about five minutes in the morning. And it's very simple. Like a friend told me about it three years ago, I thought it was fucking woowoo. And I was like, I don't why do you know what why are you doing? Why are you doing that? What's the point of that? And that convinced me but he was like, hey, I feel you know, I really like doing it. And it just made me feel more positive. So I tried it for a week. And I really felt that way. I was like, oh, I'm so grateful for my experience, actually. And I've never been a grateful person before. I was always like, what's next? How am I gonna get more, you know, and so it just really changed my experience in a fundamental way. And I'm a huge proponent of gratitude journaling now. So it's an investment, you know, just like meditation or exercise in your daily well being.

Ali

Okay, nice. Okay, I'm gonna start trying that. I've kind of dabbled with the sort of three things I'm grateful for that for in the past. And I feel like I always kind of landed on, you know, it would be in the morning, it would be like, I'm grateful for this cup of coffee in my hand, I'm grateful for the fact that I've got a cool desk setup I'm grateful for, like, what, what do you put on that list of things you're grateful for, to really feel it, if that makes sense.

Justin

Very [...] Sometimes it is, like, I am grateful for the global supply chain that delivered this coffee. I can have coffee, like, That's amazing. Like, I don't live in a place where there's like, normally naturally growing coffee. So you know, it could be something like that. It could also be like, I'm really grateful for my health. Like, I'm grateful that like my arms healed. So I can like, I can just, you know, use both arms. Like, I'm grateful for my family being happy. You know, when you think about the alternative, you really sometimes you're like, you know, it can be easy to get in the mode of like, Oh, I'm just gonna write three things really quickly and check the box. ut when you really get into, like, what do I actually feel grateful for? And what is the alternative to how it could be right now? Like, it's kind of like a form of negative visualization, which is like a stoic practice, right? So it's like, Okay, well, it could be the case where right now my family's not healthy. And like, what would that be like? Like, if my son was sick right now, what would that experience be like? And I'd be like, Oh, my God, that would, you know, that'd be tough, be really tough. And then I'm like, oh, it will then I wake up back in normal world and I'm like, oh, wow, it's actually really great that he's healthy. You know, like, so I think that's kind of how I think about it. And that's just how I try to how I frame it.

Ali

And in terms of affirmations, how do you do those?

Justin

The affirmations I'm like, you know, I tell myself every day I'm calm, that's the one I start with, I'm calm, I'm a calm person. And then I am the source of my own approval in the world. I don't need the outside world to be any different and that it's like I whatever today brings accept it I accept. I tell myself I'm kelp like the you know, the plants things yeah, yeah. I'm like kelp because like, kelp is like, if you know, I'm a free diver here in the California coast. I like the free diving in the water. You see this kelp, it's like, the waves are really strong, right? There's a lot of force and potential energy in waves and water has a lot of mass and this kelp is like, blown by this, you know, the waves on the shore constantly, whatever. And then it just stayed but it stays firmly rooted into the, into the kind of base of the ocean and I think of myself as like, that's that's the model right? Like, whatever today brings, I don't control. It could be something that's a very difficult experience. I could have another accident. You know, I could have someone I don't know. My youtube channel gets closed down by YouTube or something like that. Right? Or like my fund, you know, yeah, something happens in my fund and like, you know, that disappears or whatever or like my family could just get hit by bus, right? Like you, you don't control what happens in the world, you think you do, but you don't. And so for me, it's saying like, it's reminding myself, whatever happens, I don't control it and accept it. Like, I might get a move by like my family to get hit by bus, I'd be very sad, I'd be very affected. And I would be trying to do things in the world to like, make that not happen or like to fix the problem or whatever. But I don't control it ultimately. And so, acceptance is like a key part of like whatever happens, it's like kelp. I want to be moved, but not, but not unrooted. And so that's what I think about

Ali

Nice. Yeah, so far and I guess your your wellness stack, we've got meditation, yoga, the journaling, the gratitude journaling, the affirmations, is there anything else you'd recommend, or the things that you have in your own wellness stuff?

Justin

Gratitude journal, meditation, exercise every day, whether it's five minutes or not, like, rotate through cardio strength and stretching. And those are probably the main things I I try to fast, pretty regularly. So you know, I tried to, I usually do intermittent fasting throughout the day, and I'm only eating, I'm usually only eating like, between, like, 3pm and 8pm. But, you know, I just, that's one thing that's really helped me. Like I'm pretty carb sensitive. So I eat like a low carb diet most of the time. And I think that's the other thing that's probably really helped.

Ali

Yeah, I was actually reading Dave Asprey's book about fasting last night. And so, today, having having been inspired by that my first meal was at 2. I kind of just felt like, I had a lot of energy in the afternoon, which is not what I expected, because I just, I just had black coffee in the morning. And I had like a pang of hunger at 12. And then I tried ordering some takeaway from Deliveroo, but it didn't arrive. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I don't need to eat. And it was surprisingly, like a surprisingly liberating, liberating thought.

Justin

Yeah, we're addicted to food. You know, food is everywhere, and pretty low quality food. And, you know, we've created this kind of mental there's like a physiological addiction, which is like, if you don't eat food, you're gonna die eventually. But there's also this mental addiction, which is, you know, if you a psychological addiction, where you think that you need to eat, like three meals a day, right? Like that's what I thought when I was growing up, but then, you know, human beings were designed to like, to have that access to food.

Ali

Yeah, true. Do you do these sort of, although these one off high magnitude experiences, like, I don't know, a transcendental meditation retreat, or like, Burning Man, or like a shaman trip like that variety of stuff, do you do dabble in that?

Justin

Yeah, I would say I'm a I like the peak experiences too. For sure. Yeah. And I like meditation. I've done meditation retreats, and I've done shaman, you know, experiences. So if I could probably hit all nuggets.

Ali

What's a good like, a gateway drug into the world of peak experiences? I have zero experience with any of them. But it's something that a lot of people talk about. So I'm curious.

Justin

Well, I think if Burning Man comes back. It's gonna be lit. You should come to Burning Man. Burning Man. Incredible. Very, you know, incredible experience.

Ali

Okay, cool. I will add that to my calendar whenever it comes back to life. Amazing. Justin, thank you so much. This has been so much fun. And I've gotten a lot of yeah, a lot of takeaways, a lot of takeaways from this. Definitely going to download The Five Minute Journal and give the meditation thing a go, and I'll drop a message if I need a hand.

Justin

All right, we'll do cool. So I'm gonna and I'll probably be hitting you up for advice on my YouTube channel as it you know, as I navigate it.

Ali

Of course, any time man. Any final thing you'd like to you'd like to say to the audience.

Justin

Yeah, check out my YouTube but, you know, just, I don't know, how do people shout out their YouTube?

Ali

I mean, we've linked in the video description. So that's probably the easiest thing that you can just click the link in the video description you guys and subscribe to Justin. It's pretty lit and actually, I've been seeing a lot of comments from people recognizing you from Tiktok. So you seem to grow in Tiktok recently.

Justin

I love making Tiktok yeah, I'm doing a lot on Tiktok.

Ali

So what's your strategy for Tiktok because I haven't really given it much of a chance.

Justin

I used it to preflight my YouTube videos, so I'll like make a Tiktok on like, whatever topic I'm talking about, like selling my company. And then I see if it does well and like I make the I use the ones that perform well as like the story ideas for YouTube.

Ali

Nice. So you just like talk on Tiktok like.

Justin

Yeah, it's like one minute, right? I'm just like putting my phone I'm like, yeah, what's up Tiktok blah, blah, blah. And then that's it.

Ali

Okay. And you do those fancy things where it's like music and there's like stuff appearing here and there and everywhere. And that kind of stuff?

Justin

Yeah, I mean, I there's like, the text appearing and stuff like that. I figured how to do that. It was like some old person shit where I was like, asking my friend like, who's a Gen Z? Or like, how do I like use this app? Like, you know, and she had to like, show me like teaching your dad how to how to do Tiktok, but anyways.

Ali

but anyways, cool. Yeah. All right. Chuck, your Tick Tock up. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Thanks, everyone, for tuning into this episode of the Deep Dive. Justin. It's been an absolute pleasure. And yeah. Thanks, everyone. And we'll see you later.

Justin

Thank you.