Life Positions & Games - Transactional Analysis Part 2

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
09.May.2020

notes

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity ,and human condition.
Ali
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing today?
Taimur
I don't know man, this has been kind of a, it hasn't been a hugely productive week. I think I've wasted a bunch of time. I haven't got as much stuff done as I wanted. But it's fine. Today is, well, tomorrow's a new day. Today is still the bad week? How about you?
Ali
I've gotten a lot done this week. I've watched a solid 13 episodes of Money Heist on Netflix.
Taimur
Right.
Ali
So it's been a good week. And the good thing is David Dobrik hasn't been releasing any vlogs. So I haven't really had anything to watch on repeat apart from that. So, I mean I had a pretty productive week if I may say so myself.
Taimur
No, usually around like 10PM UK time you post a couple of Instagram stories.
Ali
Oh, ok.
Taimur
So, I try and catch those every day. And Natalie also post a few Instagram Stories from time to time.
Ali
Oh, perfect. All right. Well,I guess I won't be watching Money Heist any longer.
Taimur
Yep. All right. So let's cut to the chase. So last week, we had part one..
Ali
Hang on. Before we cut to the chase, we have an important announcement. What's that announcement?
Taimur
The announcement is that this episode is sponsored by none other than Skillshare.
Ali
I thought you're gonna say SeatGeek or something. It's a bit old, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. [SPONSOR] Well, Skillshare is a fantastic platform for online classes from all sorts of topics, from design and illustration to web design, cooking, upholstery, interior design, all this sort of stuff, the classes that you should definitely watch on Skillshare. You, dear listener, listening to this episode is my own class on how to edit videos on Final Cut Pro if you want to be a YouTuber. Or alternatively, I've got a wonderful class on how to study for exams, which actually just hit 10,000 students, 10,000 students on Skillshare, sign up to this class, and it's got amazing reviews. So you should definitely check that out. And best bet is you can sign up for a free trial of Skillshare by going to skillshare.com/notoverthinking. And if you do that, firstly is really good because it helps us out because it means that Skillshare is more likely to sponsor future episodes of this podcast. But also you get this two month free trial. And in that trial, you can kind of watch all the videos that you like. And then once you're ready to sign up the premium membership is like $10 a month or something like that. Like it's very, very reasonably priced. It's cheaper than Netflix, really. But you know, you learn a lot more. So thank you Skillshare for sponsoring this episode go to skillshare.com/notoverthinking How was that?
Taimur
That was great. Now back to cutting to the chase. Last week, we had part one of our episode, episodes, part one of our two part series on Transactional Analysis. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, you should probably listen to that before you listen to this one, because this one probably won't make much sense.
Ali
Okay, but can you give me a summary of last week because it was a long time ago, man, I can't really remember.
Taimur
It was a long time ago. So the main concept. So Transaction Analysis is a sort of framework or way of sort of analyzing human behavior and social interaction. And one of the key concepts is that inside each of us, we have three different people, you know, we're one person, but inside us, we have three different people. And these people, you know, sort of control our lives in different ways. We have the Parents, we have the Adult, and we have the Child. That is called it the PAC framework. Okay, and do you remember what the Parent was?
Ali
So the parent is, essentially that part of ourselves that has been spoken to when we were like really young children, and we were just sort of taking at face value the things that our parents or other authority figures told us without really having the critical faculties to actually assess these claims on their own merit.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. So you can think of like you're the Parent inside your. As basically all the baggage that you've inherited from your upbringing. So from, you know, your actual parents from other authority figures and from, you know, the culture that you've grown up in, it's all this sort of what's all that kind of baggage that you didn't really choose. The other person, one of the other people we have inside of you is the Child, and the Child is essentially your kind of feelings from, you know, the first few years of your life. And in response to a lot of the things that you would have experienced as a child, you will have had certain feelings about them. And all of those feelings and kind of memories are stored inside your Child and you still sometimes can kind of go back into that. So for example, you know, even though, I think we gave this example last week, even if you think, you know, I'm an adult, now, I don't really care what my parents think, or whatever, you know, sometimes if your parents disapprove of something you're doing or something like that. It can still kind of throw you back into the sort of child mindset of, you know, wanting their approval or something that kind of thing. So the Child inside of us is sort of feelings from early childhood that we can still, you know, a record that still come up. And finally, the Adult is kind of the rational in inverted commas. The rational thinking part of us that sort of looks at the world around us tries to make sense of it. And crucially, the Adult looks at data from both the Parent and the Child to try and make sense of that as well. And we said that the whole point of this framework is to help us change and the way we, the meaningful change we can make is to become in control of our own thoughts and feelings. And responses to things. And the way to do that is to essentially try and use our Adult as often as possible rather than our Parent or our Child and for our Adult to analyze the data that's in the Parent and the Child and decide what to keep and what not to keep. I think there's some quote from some philosopher about the unexamined life is not worth living or something like that. Similarly, the unexamined Parent is not worth sort of holding on to exactly. And so each of us have these three of people's lives
Ali
I think it was Aristotle, who said, "The unexamined life is not worth living"
Taimur
Did he?
Ali
Yeah, or some other philosopher starting with an A. Is there someone else starting with an A?
Taimur
I don't know, mate.
Ali
Aesop? Nah. He wasn't a philosopher. He was?
Taimur
No.
Ali
I mean, some say he was, but I think it was Aristotle.
Taimur
Right.
Ali
I just thought I'd put that in there kind of throwback to episode one.
Taimur
Nice. Yeah, listen to Episode One, if you haven't. So, PAC, Parent, Adult, Child. So any anytime two people are interacting or group of people are interacting, it's not just, you know, me interacting with you, it is one of the people inside me interacting with one of the people inside you. And so, you know, transactions or interactions is called a transaction with this framework. It can be Parent to Parent, it can be Parent to Child, it can be Adult to Adult, you get the idea. It could be any of the three states inside me interacting with any of the three states inside you. And depending on which state I'm in and which state you're in, that kind of guides the interaction. And again, as often as possible, we want to be having Adult to Adult interactions with people.
Ali
Indeed.
Taimur
So, I think the next, once you've kind of taken that on board, that's you sort of think of that as a potential lens through which you can view other things. And there's another part. Yeah, there's another part of the framework that we touched on last week, which is the different Life Positions. Do you remember what this is, Ali?
Ali
Life Positions? I remember, we talked about games that people play, but I don't remember talking about Life Positions. So yeah,
Taimur
I think we touched on it briefly as a preview.
Ali
Oh, yes, I remember the Life Positions. There's four kind of imagine a two by two matrix.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Whereas like, one of them is, "I'm not okay. You're not okay".
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
And other one is, "I'm okay. You're not okay".
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
The third is "I'm not okay. You're okay".
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And the fourth is, "I'm okay. You're okay
Taimur
Yeah, that's right. So these Life Positions, that kind of, I guess you can think of it as like, a personal plus worldview of how you kind of view yourself in relation to other people. And Thomas Harris, who kind of I think he came up with this stuff, he strongly believes that everyone, just by the kind of circumstances that every human is born into. Everyone starts off life, concluding that I'm not okay. You're okay. Okay. So everyone starts off life feeling kind of, you know, kind of like, there's something wrong with them. And that there is no other people have it all figured out in some way.
Ali
Like, I'm weird, but other people are normal.
Taimur
Yeah, that kind of thing. And yeah, I mean, this certainly resonates with me, we've touched on it a lot in previous episodes about how, yeah, you know, things like self esteem and stuff like that. And I think this makes sense. I think it's like a very logical conclusion that any infant can draw, because you know, you're kind of thrust into the world, you're completely helpless. You rely on these big six foot tall people around you for everything that you need. And you know, these other people, they kind of, you know, they stroke you. Did we touched on strokes last time?
Ali
A little bit. Perhaps not in the context you're talking about.
Taimur
Yes, a stroke is basically a unit of almost like a approval kind of thing. So, you know, children want to be stroked, but yeah, both like physically and otherwise. And so you know, the child is born, they're pretty helpless, they rely on the adults around them to kind of stroke them and help them survive. And so it's a very natural conclusion to draw that I'm not okay. And these other people are okay. Because you know, they're like stroking me, and that makes me feel good kind of thing, okay? And, I mean do you find that convincing?
Ali
I mean, yeah, it makes sense. I feel like, even now, in a few different circumstance, and in a few different contexts, I still have a default attitude of "I'm not okay. You're okay".
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. And it's a long term life projects to to change that, I think for everyone. And yeah, essentially, like, when you're a kid, you conclude, you probably conclude, "I'm not okay. You're okay". We can touch on the other. There's another couple of positions that a kid might end up in. There's, "I'm not okay. You're not okay". This is pretty unusual. It kind of only happens if you know, your parents and your kind of family upbringing is sort of extremely traumatic. But, you know, when you're a kid, and you kind of you conclude I'm not okay, for the same reasons that the rest of us conclude I'm not okay. But, you know, if your parents are extremely abusive, or anything like that, you might actually conclude that you're not okay, as well, that kind of the outside world and other people in general are, you know, not okay, right? And then there's also "I'm okay, you're not okay", which is also unusual, and..
Ali
We're talking about for children or are in general?
Taimur
For children. I mean, basically, each of us, sort of concludes one of these positions pretty early on in life. And so yeah, "I'm not okay. You're okay" seems pretty standard, I think we can all see how you might conclude that. Like I said, "I'm not okay. You're not okay". That is kind of an unusual thing where it only..
Ali
It's like I suck and the world also sucks.
Taimur
Yeah, it's like, you know, you've had like a really traumatic kind of first few years of your life and abusive and all that kind of stuff. Similarly, with "I'm okay, you're not okay". This is usually kind of concluded by kids who've been, you know, abused and brutalized and stuff like that. But it can happen, apparently, that, you know, while they while they're sort of, while the kids experience with their parents and with the outside world is very traumatic. When they're on their own, they can kind of, you know, it's like a little solace from from the craziness of the outside world. They can sort of lick their wounds and kind of help themselves heal. And so they might end up concluding that, you know, they can do some self stroking, if you will. And so they might end up concluding that I'm okay. But the rest of the world is not.
Ali
Okay. Would that have been my attitude when I was like eight and decided I wanted to run away from home because it was too restrictive.
Taimur
I don't know. That sounds like you just had a rough day. It's been a long week.
Ali
You know, primary school and all that. Those exams.
Taimur
Yeah, we can basically forget about those two positions. Yeah. I think you and I concluded early on that "I'm not okay. You're okay". And okay. So, once a child concludes this, then kind of what happens. The thing that happens is that the Adult inside the child, so you know, the child's Adult, then has a little project to work on. And that project is "what can I do to get more stroking from these other people who are okay", okay?
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
Stroking is just like validation, approval, that kind of thing, physically or otherwise, right? And so there are two ways that people kind of go about this, the most common one is to live a life, which is kind of framed as you can be okay if, which is kind of like, you know, I'm not okay, you're okay, but you know, maybe I can be okay, if I achieve something, or if I do certain things, you know. And so you kind of spend your life seeking out, you know, other people who have big Parent inside of them, who can provide you with nice big strokes. You spend life seeking and trying to gain approval from others, anyway, yeah, you sort of commit yourself to a lifetime of climbing various mountains, and obviously, at the top of each mountain is another mountain. And, you know, obviously, this doesn't produce any lasting happiness or a lasting sense of self worth. The position is always that I'm not okay, you're just you feel like maybe if you do enough, in some sense, then you will become okay. And obviously, that's not the case. So that's the most kind of common approach to dealing with the not okay. Another one is, it's less common, but it's essentially live out a life script that confirms the fact that you're not okay. So, you know, I guess a very simple example of this might be like, you know, the kind of naughty kid in the class, you know, they know that they're sort of being naughty, they know that the teacher is like, like scolding them says your bad, whatever. And it kind of like internalizes that within them. And they're kind of like, yeah, I am, yeah, you know what? I am bad. I'm gonna keep doing it, you know, this kind of thing. And so that is sort of a general attitude that some people might end up in, which is that, you know, I'm not okay. And so I'm going to like, live out a life script that confirms that. Alright, but yeah, we can largely just deal with the, the common situation of living life, you know, through a lens of "I can be okay, if.."
Ali
I can be okay, if I get the right accolades, if I kind of do the right things, that's.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, collect the right badges, you know, get approval from the right people, that kind of thing. And so, most of us are on this journey of having concluded that we're not okay, but I'm gonna stick to the first person, we've concluded that "I'm not okay. You're okay". And we are, you know, in the midst of a life where we think "I can be okay if.." okay?
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
And the goal is really to get to kind of enlightenment, which is the position of "I'm okay, you're okay". All right. And this is a position where, yeah, I mean, hopefully you get the picture from the very simple language. But it's a position where you have, yeah, there's a sense of self worth and equality of all human beings kind of.
Ali
So, kind of being comfortable in your own skin, and also not trying to sort of apply an overly judgmental worldview to other people.
Taimur
Yeah, sure. Exactly. And unlike the other positions, this position is a conscious decision which you have to make. The first three positions, you know, the Adult inside of you concludes one of those three positions when you're really young. It's not like a conscious decision of like..
Ali
The Adult inside of you.
Taimur
Yeah. You know.
Ali
So the rational thinking part of you concludes one of these decisions when you're young.
Taimur
Yeah. Based on..
It's very natural thing to conclude. However, to get to the p
Ali
Oh, based on the.. sition "I'm okay. You're okay". You have to make a conscious decision to want o do it. And yeah, sor
Right now, Taim is consulting a physical book, which is something I've literally never seen in my life. This is incredible. I didn't know you could read.
Taimur
Alright, so once you've decided that "I'm okay, you're okay". And once you've decided that this is the way you want to view the world. It's not a simple matter of like, "Oh, I've read this book, I've listened to this podcast, I'm okay. You're okay" you know, kumbaya. It's not really like that. It's sort of it's a difficult journey of like continually kind of reinstating that within yourself. Using, you know, from the Adult part of yourself. And so, there's an example that comes to mind that we talked about on some previous episodes. I think we were talking about making friends and we were talking about, you know, group holidays and that kind of stuff. And I think I said something along the lines of, you know, I think the first time I was going on like a group holiday with strangers, I was kind of nervous. I was like, "Oh, man, like, what if no one likes me?" What if, you know?What if I don't fit in this kind of, the classic like "not okay" sort of stuff. But then once I'd been on like, a few group holidays, you know, my sort of instinctive child response of like, "Oh, man, like, what if no one likes me? I'm not okay. You're okay." Well, that instinctive response, you know, was then met with some reflection from my adult, which is like, well, actually, you know, you've been on like, three or four group holidays with random people in the past, it's always turned out well, there's nothing to worry about kind of thing. And so my adult in that sense, was kind of reinforcing the "I'm okay, you're okay" position. Based on actual data it had gathered from group holidays and things. And so you know, like getting to this, I'm okay, you're okay position is not about just like sitting down and saying, "This is I'm gonna view world." It's about like, every time your Child comes out in a situation, and every time your Child comes out with the sort of, I'm not okay, you're okay, feelings, you then have to consciously assess those feelings, using with your Adult using data from the Parent and the environment around you to understand why in fact the Child feelings are invalid. And why you're okay.
Ali
This is similar to the basis for a lot of things like cognitive behavioral therapy, whereby you kind of start off, where the first step is to notice a thought pattern that is kind of leading you down a destructive path. And then the next step is to kind of critically assess it and bring to mind all sorts of evidence against it. And even then, it's still really, really hard. But with enough practice, you know, there's a phrase in within cognitive neuroscience, which is "Axons that fire together wire together."
Taimur
Yeah, I think you've said this before in the podcast.
Ali
Have I? Oh, really. Right. It seems that I'm not the only one who repeats ideas then. And so kind of the more we train ourselves into these patterns of thinking, the more they become part of our lives.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And that's why I take strong issue and when people are like, oh, but you know, the stoicism says, you could control your thoughts. But you know, I can't control my thoughts. I was like, well, actually, you probably could, if you worked at it hard enough. It's very much process over the long term.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really spot on. And that's the thing I really like about Transaction Analysis and the framework in general. I feel like a lot of ideas around this stuff over the past 100 years have kind of reached very similar conclusions about, you know, about like the goal, the goal being to be in control of your sort of thoughts and feelings and things like that. And like how roughly how to get there. So it's not something like completely left field. This is not, you know.
Ali
It's not like the courage to be disliked.
Taimur
I think yeah. So I think this stuff actually has a lot of links to Adlerian psychology or whatever you want to call it. But basically, if you're thinking, Oh, man, this is like some weird psychology framework, like, I don't know, if it's up to date with latest stuff, or whatever, you know, how do I know there isn't a better one, like, these are all similar ideas that lots of different schools of thought have arrived at in different ways. And these are different framings of similar ideas. And so you can, rest assured this doesn't really contradict, you know, any other sort of invalid in inverted commas, ways of viewing things, or ways that people view things, right?
Ali
Yeah, that seems reasonable, I suppose. You know, a minority of our listeners might currently be thinking, yeah, well, what about the case of, you know, insert extreme example of psychological torment here.
Taimur
Right. Yeah. I mean, it fits into the framework. If you're a kid and you've kind of experienced that. You might end up in one of the other life positions.
Ali
I think it's fair to say most of us are probably kind of listening to this right now in the I'm not okay, you're okay camp for a lot of things.
Taimur
I think even if you're in any of the other camps, like the same stuff applies it just the journey will be different, you know, the challenges will be different, but the same stuff applies. And the goal is to get "I'm okay, you're okay".
Ali
Okay. So one example is for you kind of on these group holidays, I think an occasion which I consistently think I'm not okay is when it comes to thinking about the idea of traveling and the constant worry that I wonder if I'm going to make friends. And I suppose in my heart, I have a feeling of kind of I'm not okay in terms of interacting with other people.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah.
Ali
And I suppose that anytime I can voice this out loud, then I kind of realized that actually, you know, I make friends wherever I go, it's not that hard, you know?
Taimur
Yeah. I'm a cool guy.
Ali
Yeah, I'm kind of cool. Especially if I can kind of walk around with a vlogging camera people are going to want to be my friend. So I think, you know, or at the very least a deck of cards, you know, I can always whip out a magic trick.
Taimur
Yeah. Whip out your deck.
Ali
Yeah, so that's a constant position of I'm not okay. You're okay. But I always have to Yeah, sort of critically assess that. I mean, I don't know. It's gonna be all right. I need to go to a hostel and pretend to be drunk.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I imagine most people will have similar things where they're, you know, there are certain situations that bring out the Child and they bring out the not okay. And you kind of have to try and think yourself out of them regularly. There's an interesting example, which Harris gives in the book. He says, "One day a young divorcee in one of my groups complained angrily ah, here and you're damned okay bit. I went to a party last night and I decided to just be as nice as I could be. And I decided that everyone else there was okay. And I went up to this woman and I said, Oh, hey, why don't you come over here and have coffee with me sometime? And she cut me down to two feet tall. She said, Well, I would like to but you know everybody doesn't have the time to sit around and gas all day the way you do." And so this woman who tried hard at this party, to decide that I'm okay, you're okay. This other woman kind of shut her down made me feel bad. And so she kind of felt like Oh, man, this okay thing this Okay, thing is rubbish. You know, I did my bit, didn't work. And yet Harris says your personal or social storms are not going to subside immediately, when we assume a new position, the Child wants immediate results. But the Adult can comprehend that patience and faith are required. We cannot guarantee instant okay feelings when we assume this position. But yeah it's kind of a long journey.
Ali
But just on a completely unrelated note. This phrase patience and faith, I've not really come across it in sort of patience and faith like together as a concept before except kind of this week, I've been reading these books about storytelling. And one of the ones I'm reading at the moment is called Story Worthy. And essentially, what the author is saying is that every night you should do this thing called the Homework For Life. And the Homework For Life is every day you reflect on your day, and you ask yourself, what is the most story worthy component of my day? Like if I had to tell a story about something that happened today. What one thing would I choose to tell a story about. And it says that if you do this every day, for a year, two years, three years. You will end up becoming a master storyteller, you end up reflecting on your life a lot more. Life will like time will slow down for you because you're actively reflecting on your day. But he says in the book that it takes faith and patience, and most people reading this, either won't have the patience or won't have the faith that it's going to go somewhere. And when I read that in the book, I was like, "Oh, damn, this faith and patient thing. This is pretty good." Because a lot of the whole I don't know, like, taking into a concrete realm that, you know, if you to make or to start a YouTube channel or something, it takes patience, and it takes faith that I'm going to be consistent with this. And it's gonna go somewhere.
Taimur
Yeah, you gotta trust the system.
Ali
Exactly.
Taimur
Trust the market. Yeah, for sure. I was gonna say something in response to that. Oh, yeah, the story thing. We're on a tangent, we better get back on the right path on the straight and narrow very soon. But the story thing, I think when I started using Twitter, like probably like maybe like, a year and a half, two years ago. I'd kind of walk through life with the lens of like, "What can I tweet about this" and it's the same as the story thing. And like, you just get better, like think you have good tweets as a result. You know?
Ali
As soon as you have any kind of janky thought process. (laughter) How can I turn this into 140? Or 280 characters?
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So look, most people conclude, I'm not okay, you're okay. And most people deal with this in the wrong way, which is by playing games. And games is another core concept in Transaction Analysis. So there's a few different categories of types of social interaction yet, I'm not going to go through all of them, there's like seven, you know, one of them is like withdrawal where you complete withdrawal from other people. And you kind of it's the one sided interaction, you kind of just interact with yourself. And others pastimes, which is kind of a pastime is just sort of a kind of, like, predictable set of, you know, ongoing transactions. Where, you know, but both people kind of know what's up. It's like making small talk so that the small talk would be an example of like a past time where, you know, you mentioned the weather. They know what this past time is, like, you know, they know we're about to engage in small talk about the weather, right?
Ali
It's like everyday when I walk into the wards and talk like that. "Hey, Ali, how's it going?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm alright Emily, how are you?" and she's like, "I'm good. How's your day been?" I'm like, "Yeah, not bad". It's like the same, the same pattern repeated over time.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like a series of sort of semi ritualistic kind of complimentary transactions. So like, you're sort of, you know, playing off of each other. You're not like contradicting each other anything. You're sort of both doing the same kind of, you're dancing in sync in this kind of ritual.
Ali
That happens like, that's basically most of my day when I'm at work. It's like, "Hey, how's it going? Good. How's your day been? Yeah. How's how's the whole virus situation? Yeah, not too bad."
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah.
Ali
"So, which placement Are you on at the moment? Oh, you know, I'm cardiology. Oh, cool. You know which one is that? You can really map it out. Have you thought about what you want to do next year from August?"
Taimur
I love it. (laughter)
Ali
Like 100% word for word with everyone.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, this is a classic. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like the point of saying that these are pastimes, the point of like, describing this phenomenon, isn't to say like, oh, man, people are so stupid engaging your pastime. That's not the point. Yeah, pastimes are fine. The primary objective is to basically structure time. It's to pass the time. And so that's what a pastime is. And pastimes are generally kind of optimized so that both parties get like, you know, get some like good outcome at the end, like you don't restructure a pastime so that, I mean, you wouldn't generally structure it in a way that significantly favors one party over the other or something, right? You kind of have these past times that you've kind of been trained in, just by sort of interacting with people and what your parents teach you and stuff like that, to have like a mutual good vibes once you're done basically, right? However, aside from pastimes, people also engage in games. And a game is also a series of complimentary transactions where like, we're dancing in sync, right? And there is also like a kind of well defined predictable sort of outcome. However, there's like a concealed motivation. There's like a, you know, some of the transactions have like an ulterior motive.
Ali
Oh, interesting.
Taimur
And there's like a dramatic outcome. And then there's a payoff where typically one person wins and the other person loses, right?
Ali
So that's why it's defined as a game.
Taimur
Yeah. So the key things that like separate a game from a pastime is that there is some kind of ulterior motive behind what you're saying, right? And there is sort of this dramatic outcome where there's like a payoff for both parties, typically where one party wins and the other party loses, okay?
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
And so last time we mentioned some examples of games. We mentioned some examples of pastimes as well. So like, "Ain't it awful" is a classic pastime, you and someone else, sit and have a good old whinge about something, right? And like, you kind of play off of each other. Like, if someone's like, oh, man, I hate public transport. Like, generally, you're gonna engage, "yeah, kind of sucks. I know", you know, you're both play into or put together the past time. I think one of -- we'll just discuss a couple of games in particular, just to kind of give everyone an idea of like, what is a game and kind of how can I spot when a game is being played? So there's a very classic game called, "Why don't you? Yes, but", okay? And this is actually, this particular (laughter)
Ali
I can feel the wheels turning in my mind.
Taimur
Yeah. And this particular kind of structure of a series of transactions, was the original stimulus for Eric Berne, you know, the guy who came up with Transactional Analysis. This was the original stimulus for him to actually come up with the idea of games. He sort of spotted this and he thought, Wait, there's something weird going on here. And this was like, the first thing he noticed, and then he noticed another one. He was like, Oh, wait, okay. There's like, a whole structure here, right? And so, here is an example of "Why don't you? Yes, but" Alright? So this is the two player version. We say, like White and Black are the two people, a bit like chess. And so why, you know, White might say, "I'm so fed up of staying in." And then Black might say, "Why don't you go out tonight?" And then White would say, "Yes, but I have to get up early tomorrow." And then Black would say, "Oh, why don't you come with me for dinner after work?" And then White would say, "Yes, but I have to save money." And then Black would say, "Okay, why don't you come over to my place instead?" And then White would say, "Yes, but you live too far." And, and so on. And then this kind of goes on, right?
Ali
Oh, my goodness. (laughter)
Taimur
It's good. So good. So "Why don't you? Yes, but"
Ali
This really happens all the time in everything. (laughter)
Taimur
So, this is like a really common game. I think everyone's kind of engaged in this at some point where White plays a role of kind of the helpless person, which is mostly personified by the Child inside White. And Black plays a role of the advisor, essentially, through the Parent inside them, okay? And the reason this isn't just a pastime, the reason this is a game is that, you know, on the face of it, the two people are framing this as an Adult to Adult interaction, where, you know, one person is saying something and other person is making suggestion the other person like, you know, has to think and makes a reasonable response to why that's a bad suggestion or whatever, but really, what's going on is that White is trying to prove that they are rights and that problem is unfixable. So that they feel justified as to why they're in that you know, situation. White is trying to essentially prove that I'm helpless, you know, like "I'm not okay and there's nothing I can do about it" and they want to show that they want to get satisfaction from confirming that position and showing Black to be kind of inadequate in that Black suggests all these things, but they're all wrong suggestions, you know? And so White kind of wins this game eventually when Black gives up and kind of says, Oh, yeah, you're right, you're right that your life sucks. And there's absolutely nothing you could do about it.
Ali
And White's like, yes, I win. (laughter)
Taimur
And yeah, Black mostly loses, there's maybe like a mild payoff in feeling like, you know, feeling like you're trying to help someone, you have taken the parent role, but mostly Black kind of gets frustrated, and loses. And you also see, you also see this game happening, at like parties or whatever. There might be like a group of people and say, the example from the book is, someone at the party might say, "Oh, man, my husband always insists on doing my own repairs." And then basically, there'll be a group of people, and one by one, the other people in the group will suggest something to White about like, "Oh, why don't you do this or whatever." And then White will shoot that down in the next person. "Oh, why don't you do that?" And then this will go on until eventually, someone might, someone in the group will basically say, "Oh, yeah, man. Your husband sucks" or something or like, "Oh, yeah, men. Am I right?" That kind of thing. This is a really common game. I remember. Yeah, I think that this is also like one of the things that I started noticing a few years ago, and I noticed that I had one friend at university, and she always wanted to play this game. But I think I played it, I played it a few times. And I kind of cottoned on to the fact that like, this is a stupid game. And then sort of stopped kind of engaging with it from then. And I think this is one of the yeah, I think from having spotted this a while back, I almost never engaged with this now. Like, I always assume that okay, the other person is trying to they're either trying to have like a good old whinge about something. And that's fine, you know, nice to blow off steam once in a while, or they're looking for other people to confirm that they are helpless in this situation, and it doesn't really help anyone to play the game with them. So essentially, if you find yourself, if you find yourself in this game, if someone tries to play this game with you. A better response is to kind of shut it down by saying, either by empathizing and saying, "Oh, man, yeah, that really sucks" kind of thing. Or kind of turning it on them and saying, "Okay, so what, what are you going to do about it" kind of thing. Rather than playing the whole suggestions and getting shut.
Ali
So, quite a few things come to mind with this. There's a close friend of mine who sort of finds himself playing this game with his girlfriend a fair bit. Where the girlfriend will complain about something, and my friend will give a suggestion, and then the girlfriend will shoot it down. And this happened a few times. And now what my friend does is that as soon as the initial complaint comes in, he says, "right, is this one of the situations where you want an answer? Is this one of those situations where you want to whinge?" And then she, you know, has the self awareness to be like, "fine. It's one of the situations where I want to whinge." Yeah. And then both parties know what's going on. (laughter) Whereas before, from what I understand, it would sometimes be a source of frustration for my friend.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. Black loses this game. It's well known.
Ali
I remember we both got a friend from school who would play this game fair, like extremely regularly. It'd be okay. "Hey, John, do you wanna come to the cinema with us?" He's like, "No, I can't" I'm like "Okay, why not?" " Because I don't have a lift". "Alright, I'm driving. I'll take you". "Oh, no, no, that won't work because I have to be home in a certain time". "Okay, that's fine. We can drop you straight back afterwards." And then, sort of after a few months, it just like "John, we're going to the cinema. Feel free to come." (laughter) And ultimately, John ends up not coming to the cinema with us at all. But what can you do? It's not a winning game.
Taimur
Yeah. And so look, I think this is a good example of game. But the point is not that like, it's bad to whinge or anything like that. The point is that -- so games are generally bad, like, they're generally not a good way for people to transact with one another. And that's because of like, the, the ulterior nature of it, you know? It's like, you're not really being upfront with the other person. It's kind of, you know, it's kind of like manipulative sort of thing. You know, if you want to have a whinge, you can have like a sort of adult to adult, you can have a non-game whinge. You know, you can have a..
Ali
A past-time whinge.
Taimur
You can have a pastime whinge. You can play "Ain't it awful" with one another. (laughter)
Ali
Like, look Taimur, I want to play "Aint it awful" right now (laughter). I don't want to play chess here.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. So that's one example of a game. I'll give you an ther example. And then we can talk a bit more broadly about this s
Ali
Yeah, I find myself like sort of just like on the similar topic. I "You know, well, I mean, I'm pretty sure you watch at least 30 hours of Netflix find myself playing the role of Black. Like these days, when it comes to sort of encouraging people to start a blog or something like that. That's like an absolute classic example of kind of playing this game. Where someone would be like, "Oh, you know, my career's not going great." And be like, "Have you considered writing online?" And then White says, "Yeah, well, yeah, I've kind of thought about it, but oh, you know, I don't think I'll find the time." each week, you know, potentially, you know, even a tenth of that could be used to start a blog". "Yeah, but I don't know people at work will look at me weird if I write." I've played this game far too many times.
Taimur
I like that you bring this up. Because I actually don't think that is a game of "Why don't you? Yes, but" that was not initiated by the other person. That game is initiated by you. And that game is called "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch." Okay, that's the game that you play.
Ali
Really?
Taimur
Yes.
Ali
Okay, explain it to me.
Taimur
At the end of last episode we were talking about, you know, the whole thing about like, you know, I think both you and I are on the same page about the social taboo against incest being unjust in a modern secular society is inconsistent with other beliefs. And you were talking about how you love to kind of bring up that topic with other people. Because it kind of like gets them into a corner where they have to, they're basically ultimately have to agree with you. And so what you do with, that is a classic example of "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch." Where essentially, you know, you're not really, you know, this is not an adult to adult, this is not an adult to adult conversation of like trying to reach the truth about something or trying to learn about something. This is you having spent a large amount of time thinking about something, you know, which typically the other person will have not spent much time thinking about, okay? And so you know, you know that there is no way out of this for them, okay? You know, that if you can push them into this corner, and you can keep prodding them until they give up, okay? Until you win the game. And so you're playing "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch." with the incest thing. And you're also playing "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch." with the rising online thing, because this is a classic shtick of yours. You spend your whole time thinking about this thing and why everyone should do this thing, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, you can basically bring it up with anyone you meet. And you'll find that you end up in this sort of game situation where it's a very predictable ending, where, you know, you're gonna sort of keep hammering on this door of like, "Start a blog, damn it." (laughter) And they're not really going to budge.
Ali
(laughter)...for God's sake.
Taimur
Yeah. But yeah, this is not a case of "Why don't you? Yes, but." you know, if the other person was like, "Oh, man, Ali, you know, What should I do?" You know, I want to like, do some, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then you suggest the thing, maybe that would be a case of "Why don't you? Yes, but." This is actually a case of you playing "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch." Well, you know how this is gonna go down. It's a set of like, yeah, there's a predictable outcome, you're the clear winner, you know, and there is something ulterior in your behavior there. You'll agree there's something ulterior in your behavior for the incest thing. Maybe you'll claim that "Oh, no, it's all in good faith when I'm trying to convince him to start a blog." I have a feeling you get some kind of kick out of the fact that they generally don't have a sort of good argument as to why they shouldn't start a blog.
Ali
I want to push back on the incest. So I actually think it's more a case of "Why don't you? Yes, but." Because in my experience, so I tend not to bring this up spontaneously, I tend to bring it up in the in the context of someone having a good whinge about their job. Which kind of, depending on who you hang out with, ends up being either more frequent, or less frequent. And it feels like, it feels to me in my head as one of the suggested like, similar to "I'm feeling really lonely tonight. Oh, why don't you come out to dinner with me?" you know, that's not a case of "I've got you now, you son of a bitch." That's a case of "Why don't you? Yes, but." Equally for me. It's like, you know, my friend, John is being like, my job is terrible. I hate my life. Like, Oh, well, have you ever thought about starting a blog online? As opposed to..
Taimur
Okay, sure.
Ali
So, John, (laughter) how's that domain name going? Dude, I was just talking about the weather. I mean, come on. I just wanna have a pastime here. Why do you keep bringing the blog thing up?
Taimur
Okay, fine. Would you agree the incest things is you playing "I've got you now, you son of a bitch."
Ali
In the past, sure. I haven't brought it up for a very long time. But I would relish the opportunity (laughter) if it came up in conversation to be like, right, that's interesting.
Taimur
Yeah. See, I think..
Ali
Oh, it's kind of like anytime people's, like, I kind of have my my spidey radar that goes off anytime someone says anything to do with the fact that, that person is weird for posting something online. Then, I think, right? Let's hash this out right now. Got you now, you son of a bitch. Is that weird? Oh, yeah. Sure. How about that photo that you posted yesterday?
Taimur
Yeah. But you know, there are, there are good faith, you know, adult to adult ways of handling those situations. And there are ulterior gamey ways of handling those situations. And I think if you find yourself getting a kick out of it, getting a perverse kick out of it, you're probably playing some kind of game and that's not great. Yeah, so look, there's a ton of different games. Dr. Eric Berne wrote a book called: "Games People Play" where he kind of lists out a bunch of different games and kind of analyzes them by analyzing you kind of lay out the structure of how they typically go, you know? White says this. Black says this. And you kind of lay out like, what is White, actually, what's White's true purpose here that they're trying to hide? What's like Black's true purpose, that kind of thing. And crucially, like if you find yourself in, you know, in this game, how do you stop playing the game, right? And so, generally, the way to stop playing the game is to respond in kind of like a non-complimentary way. Like the game only goes on, if you keep having complimentary transactions where like you're both dancing and singing, you gotta sort of break the dance. So if someone is like, you know, playing the role of the Child, and they're looking for someone to play the role of the Parent to kind of, you know, placate them or comfort them or something like that. Maybe there are times where that's fine. There are times where it's less fine. And if you respond through you Adult, that typically kind of, you know, breaks the dance a little bit, and you can kind of move into doing something a bit more productive. Not economically productive, obviously.
Ali
I was going to say
Taimur
I knew you'd get excited about that.
Ali
Productivity? (laughter)
Taimur
(laughter) What does.. say about productivity
Yeah. I'll list out some names of games. So, "Now I've got you,
Ali
Skillshare.com/notoverthinking
Wait, what's if it weren't for you?
Taimur
Yeah, this is another sort of common-ish one. I haven't got like ou son of a bitch." There's "If it weren't for you", ther concrete notes on this. So this is just me like trying to explain this straight out of the noodle. If it. (laughter) Yeah, "If it weren't for you" is is when. Okay, so like, let's say like, I'm White, and you're Black. Okay? And let's say okay, let's say that secretly, I don't know, let's just say like, we're married or something, right? And secretly..
Ali
Incest? (laughter) "I've got you now, you son of a bitch." (laugher)
Taimur
Yeah, let's say like we're married.
Ali
You can't use that argument of like, what about the kids? (laughter)
Taimur
That's so lucky. (laughter) Let's say we're a married couple. And I don't know, you rely on me to be home at a, you know, you don't like me hanging out with the boys. Is that a good example? Yeah. Okay, more obvious example is like, you know, to kind of frame it in terms of very traditional sort of gender roles. And this is the example that I think Eric gives is similar to the example that Eric Berne gives in Games People Play, you know, let's say the wife wants to, you know, the wife kind of wants to sort of put herself out there a little bit and kind of, you know, learn how to dance with something. Go to like dance classes, and you do a bit of like dancing, performance dancing kind of stuff. The husband is, but, the wife is also kind of scared of it, you know? It's kind of outside her comfort zone. It's kind of a hard thing for her to do. So she kind of wants to do it. She's mostly scared of doing it. The husband is, you know, quite domineering, or whatever. And he's like, Oh, no, you know, you have to be home and you have to be at home and cook the dinner for me and the kids or something. And in that case, the wife might find herself playing "If it weren't for you", where deep down she knows she's scared of, you know, she's scared of putting herself out there and going and learning how to dance and performing. However, the husband like being domineering, or whatever provides her with the perfect excuse of like, if it weren't for you. Then I'd be able to do X, Y and Z. When secretly. She's kind of, she's glad she has that excuse of the husband sort of.
Ali
Yeah, okay.
Taimur
Yeah. And so you're, the wife and the husband in this case might end up in this game where sort of having a bit of a shouting match against each other bit of it like disagreement about stuff in general, and the wife would be like well, if it weren't for you, I'd I'd be able to do this and that and whatever. Right? So that's kind of what "If it weren't for you." is. There's another game called "I'm only trying to help you." There is "Look how hard I've tried." There's "Look what they made me do."
Ali
What's "Look what they made me do."
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
What's "Look what they made me do." It sounds like a Taylor Swift song.
Taimur
Yeah, look, you can read the book. Oh, yeah. I don't think we should say it here.
Ali
Might as well just list all of them.
Taimur
I'm listing a bunch just to kind of, you know, because like the names are quite descriptive. Okay? "Look what they made me do." There's "Why does this always happen to me?" There's "Kick me." (laughter)
Ali
You can't just say that and not expect me to follow up with a question like what the hell do you mean?
Taimur
Wait, how are we doing for time?
Ali
Fine. This is fine. We're on 52 minutes. I think we should have a part three where we just list these games people play. That would fun, good content for next week.
Taimur
Yeah, that is a fun thing. However, let's yeah, let's move away from like specific games. In general, like, do you agree..
Ali
Sounds like I've got you now.
Taimur
Alright, so now you're doing something called Game Calling. (laughter) Which is a common thing that new acolytes to transaction analysis fall into, which is that like, ah, I have now learned all the games that I could, like call other people that would play these games. It's bad thing to do. It's generally not a good thing to do. You should analyze a game sort of yourself after the fact or even like during the fact.
Ali
And then keep it to yourself?
Taimur
Yeah, generally like keep it yourself or like sit there and have like a game analysis session with other people who are, you know, well versed in transaction analysis and PAC and all that stuff. That's a fine point to say. Oh, so you know, we were playing this game earlier or whatever, but like, you know, in the midst of like calling someone out of like, oh, haha you're playing "Ain't it awful". Oh, I can tell you what you're gonna do now. You know, like oh you're playing "Why don't you? Yes, but". This is how this is gonna go.. Yeah, it's a dick move. Don't do that. (laughter)
Ali
I do apologize.
Taimur
That's called Game Calling; you don't want to do that. Look, people mostly play games to deal with they're not okay, all right, that's mostly why people play a game. You're on board with that?
Ali
Hmm..
Taimur
You deal with the "not okay" by playing these games and a lot of the games are kind of perverse in that they sort of confirm that you're right about the "not okay", that they kind of like confirm the "not okay", and you kind of get off on that or they kind of elicit strokes from other people which make you feel less not okay.
Ali
Okay, yeah
Taimur
So yeah, generally that's like why people play games, it's sort of a way of dealing with the "not okay". And generally, games are a bad idea. You know, it's nothing good really comes out of them. And yeah, Harris believes that all games have their origin in the childhood game called "Mine is better than yours." And you see little kids play this all the time. Little kids play this to sort of, you know, as some like momentary relief from from the "not okay". You know, like wanting to have like the bigger portion of ice cream or, you know, wanting to be first in line or, like, you know, laughing when your sister makes a mistake, or, you know, kicking the cat.
Ali
(laughter) Wow.
Taimur
Sorry that's just..
Ali
..that's one for next time.
Taimur
Yeah, you know, having more toys, all of this stuff is sort of "Mine is better than yours." which little kids do to kind of ease the "not okay".
Ali
So, that time when you took my Pokemon blue and you hid the new game button, and you overwrote my save where I had 146 Pokemon, that was you basically saying "I'm not okay".
Taimur
Yeah, that was the impression of I'm not okay.
Ali
That's fine. I forgive you now.
Taimur
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And essentially, if you know, grown ups indulge in more sophisticated variations of "Mine is better than yours." Right? Yeah, we try and get temporary... Yeah, you know, temporary relief from like, accumulating possessions, you know, getting bigger house than the Joneses. Or even, even like reveling in your own modesty of like, I'm humbler than you.
Ali
I've only got a TV that's 15 years old. (laughter) Unlike you who have the latest model, therefore I win.
Taimur
Yeah, so it's like temporary relief. But you know, you don't want to do that. Because you'll end up living a life of "I can be okay if", which is you know, I think we all agreed not a good thing to do. And yeah, basically, anytime someone is playing "Mine is better than yours", deep down they're really thinking, "I'm not okay, you're more okay than I am". And that's why they're trying to play "Mine is better than yours" to try and ease that a little bit. Alright, so we've covered Life Positions a bit, we've covered games.
Ali
So I'm curious on this one, I sometimes think about this mine is better than yours thing. Like, previously, I didn't really have the vocabulary for it. But often, for example, if I am looking to buy like a new fancy piece of tech or something like, you know, a shiny new camera or something. There's a voice in the back of my mind that's thinking, well, sort of the my internal justification for this is it'll improve my video quality and therefore make my videos better. But I wonder like, is there actually a bigger part of me that just wants this just to flex that I've got the money to afford this camera, like for example. And I don't think there is, personally like I think I generally don't really care about what people think of me in that regard. I generally have a sort of I'm okay attitude towards this sort of stuff. But there is a kind of this thing in my mind that to what extent is that is this actually a subconscious kind of desire to flex? I suppose the waters do get muddied a bit when, if you happen to be in the somewhat odd position where the flexing of where the flexing in various domains actually drives your economic engine, kind of like that. We're having a chat on the podcast a few months ago, maybe last year at some point about kind of social media, social media status games.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And if you're the sort of person who has turned it into a career of the social media flex, then at that point I think you have a cringe pulse when it comes to flexing on the social media.
Taimur
Yeah, so I think like yeah, I think like if you are you know, for example, like you, your influence or whatever, you have to like publicize your life because this is the only way you can make some money (laughter), you have a family to feed. You know, you're just trying to keep a roof over here. (laughter)
Ali
That's why I need that camera. That's why I need that 49-inch monitor
Taimur
Look, to an extent like you've decided that okay, this is like the career, this is my career path. I think yeah, it's undeniable that you flexing your life is kind of a big part of what this career entails. And you know, all this like storytelling thing, which I think by the way, is complete bollocks. I think it sounds like a really, really..
Ali
Specifically what?
Taimur
Yeah, we were talking about this on the show a couple of episodes ago, you read some book about saying like, oh, man, you should think about the story that you're writing with your life or something. And yeah, it just seemed very, like external focused. And yeah, I think all these stories story stuff is, is really ringing alarm bells in my head.
Ali
Hang on. What do you mean all the story stuff? It sounds like you're touring a huge sort of thing with sort of. So I suppose the question is, what position do you think I hold that you disagree with?
Taimur
I think a couple of episodes ago, you were talking about this book that you read. And you said that this like really resonated with you like to change your life, blah, blah, blah, because the book was advocating for, you know, when you're living your life, think about, like, think about how it would look as a story, you know, think about what story you're writing or something like that. And you said that, you know, that seemed like a good way to approach and think about your life.
Ali
Okay, in a sense that's.. story being defined as a sort of striving for something overcoming conflict and then coming out on the other side?
Taimur
What do you mean?
Ali
As in that's how we're defining a story. A story is where our character wants something, and it has to overcome adversity to get it.
Taimur
I feel that is a much narrower definition of story than what you said last time.
Ali
Yeah, think potentially last time I hadn't got to that bit of the book where that was made clear. Potentially the image I gave you last time was sort of some sort of what would make the best photo on Instagram?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Dabble of story. Whereas, what these story dudes are advocating or is more like, what is the way in which you can step outside of your comfo t zone and do something that challenges you and that you come on the other sid of it, and therefore you, therefore you would look back on your life thinkin I'm really glad that I did that thing, because I stepped outside my comfort zon .
Taimur
Yeah, sure. That seems a lot less objective.
Ali
So that's kind of the story thing, as opposed to what's the nicest Instagram story. So actual story versus Instagram story.
Taimur
Yeah, I can get on board with that. But anyway, like, yeah, once you decide to live this kind of influencer life where, you know, you do profits from flexing your life and all this kind of stuff, it's reasonable to say that, you know, I'm getting this nice camera, you know, partly to flex my wealth or something, but like, partly because it helps my videos and like, I get these new gadgets and stuff, you know, partly to, you know, make videos, but for whatever. Like, it's reasonable to say that I'm doing it for my job, basically. However, I think the danger and the thing that you don't want to fall into is if, if the stroking that you receive as a result of all that stuff is kind of if you're using that stroking to deal with the not okay. That's a bad that's a bad place to be.
Ali
If I'm in the place of I'll be okay. If my 2020 productivity deck gets a million views.
Taimur
Yeah yeah, I'll be okay when I get to a million subs or whatever, like, yeah, basically, if you put yeah, I think if you find yourself..
Ali
If you put any element of your kind of own self worth on the accolade, on the stroking of others
Taimur
Yeah, if you find yourself enjoying the stroking to, you know, too much, then I'd be wary of that. Okay, cool. So a couple of things to run off. And I'm sorry, this hasn't been super structured. It takes a long time to prepare this stuff. I spent a couple of hours yesterday like consolidating some notes about this stuff. That wasn't nearly enough time. I think even in the previous episode. Like I spent a few hours like consolidating some notes. It wasn't enough time.
Ali
"Ain't it awful?"
Taimur
So like these two episodes. (laughter)
Ali
Ain't it just bloody awful? So hard to read about a book. Just to read a book and prepare a podcast episode.
Taimur
I believe what I'm playing is "Look how hard I've tried." (laughter)
Ali
I was trying to do the past time rather than play the game. "Ain't it awful" is a past time and not a game.
Taimur
Sure sure. Yeah, so look, these two episodes are going to be a very, you know, not going to be like the best intro. I hope people see these as like an introduction to this interesting kind of way of thinking, I do plan to create some more detailed content around this stuff. Because there's actually no good content around it online. There's like four or five books. A bunch of which we've kind of discussed, most of them are very hard to approach. I'm okay, you're okay is probably the only reasonably approachable one, there's not really much sort of good video content or even like articles, blog, summaries, that kind of stuff around it. So I hope to treat transaction analysis as a, as an intellectual project of sorts that I really care about and want to, you know, spread in the world.
Ali
So if I say I can indulge in some Game Calling for a moment.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
So, you've just basically said, "Look how hard I've tried."
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And you're asking the audience to give you some strokes by sending in emails to hi@notoverthinking.com saying that "Actually Taimur this is one of my favorite episodes. And I think the way you, you know, you discussed these issues was really well structured and really well thoughtful and I love your laugh, by the way."
Taimur
I wasn't doing that. (laughs)
Ali
Okay. Sure.
Taimur
But okay yeah, look, there's a couple of final points I'd like to address before we round things off. But that was just me apologizing in advance for this not being you know, any fault with these, with these explanations is on me, not on the framework. Okay, so, games are a very significant part of life, you know, they're kind of passed down from generation to generation. And you know, to an extent, this seems to be a tendency to kind of become friends with and breed with people who play similar games as we do, you know, and so games would like this very historically significant thing. And Harris thinks, or rather, Eric Berne thinks that raising children is primarily a matter of teaching them what games to play, and how to play them. In different cultures and different social classes there are different types of games, and various tribes and families have their own variations of these games. And so like, yeah, you might find that you and your friends tend to play certain kinds of games, whereas other groups of friends play different kinds of games. And like the people that you find yourself kind of clicking with or whatever, are the people who engage with your games, in a way that's a in the way that you like, versus like, the people who you feel like, oh, they didn't really get me or I don't really get them. It might be because they play different games or you play games in a different way. And so we talked a bit about pastimes as being this, like, you know, new sort of neutral thing, you know, a way to pass the time. And then we talked about games as kind of being this sort of bad thing. And the thing is that like, pastimes is kind of like, they kind of get boring as you as you sort of repeat them, you know? It's like, it's like cocktail party kind of stuff, that's kind of what a pastime is. Where you're not like truly connecting with the other person, okay? And so the goal is sort of the ultimate kind of interaction, you remember I said, there's like seven ways that people interact, games and pastimes and two of those intimacy is like, the goal. And intimacy is like the true, you know, sincere, deep human connection kind of thing. And intimacy is what we're trying to, what we should be trying to sort of get to, with the people around us. Intimacy is hard, because like, I don't know, it's kind of scary to yeah, it's the usual stuff around like being vulnerable, kind of keeping it real, being authentic, all of that kind of stuff. And that's why intimacy is hard. And like, you know, society often frowns upon, you know, people being candid or something or, you know, going off script and not engaging in these structured ways. And so yeah, to get past like the boredom of playing a pastime, and to get past the difficulty of actually having intimacy with someone, most people end up playing games to fill the major part of their social interactions. So games are like these very socially significant things. But intimacy is the true goal. And there's no like good definition of intimacy that I can give here. I'll read a little passage from the book, "The somber picture presented in parts one and two of this book in which human life is mainly a process of filling in time until the arrival of death."
Ali
Nice.
Taimur
So that's a somber picture of the book might present that, you know, everyone's a mug, who just like plays these games with each other until they will die. "But you know, for certain fortunate people, there is something which transcends all classifications of behavior. And that is awareness. There's something which rises above the programming of the past, and that is spontaneity. And there's something that's more rewarding than games, and that's intimacy. But all three of these may be frightening and even perilous to the unprepared. Perhaps they're better off as they are seeking their solutions in popular techniques of social action, such as togetherness" basically, he's saying that like intimacy is hard to get to. And, you know, it's so genuinely hard to get to that some people might, maybe some people are better off, you know, not getting there. And instead just sort of.
Ali
Talking about the weather.
Taimur
Yeah, talking about the weather and stroking one another and that kind of stuff. Not to say that intimacy doesn't come with stroking one another. But it's like a hard thing to get to. And like, you know, when you're not playing games, when it's not just like a pastime, which is like a ritual kind of interaction, when you're kind of keeping it real. That's, that's kind of what intimacy is. And, mate, I made some notes on this which just completely disappeared. Oh wait, okay, yeah. So aside from intimacy, there were two other things that were mentioned this passage, you remember that the goal was to kind of achieve autonomy to be like complete control over our sort of thoughts and feelings. And that comes from three, that comes from sort of three things, Awareness, Spontaneity and Intimacy. And I think awareness is a particularly interesting concept. So he says that "awareness is the capacity to see things in one's own way, not the way one was taught." It's kind of like living You know, there's all this stuff about like living in the here and now. Being in the present and you know, not having your head stuck in like the past or the future. And so there's a good example that Berne gives in the book about awareness. He says, there's like a classic situation, which most people find themselves in, he says, like modern America, whatever, which is that you're kind of you're driving to work in the morning and you're running a bit late, okay? And, you know, he presents three different people in three different responses to the situation, the person one is who labels the jerk. The person one is, is chiefly preoccupied with being on time to his job, he's oblivious to his surroundings. You know, he's in the car. He's like, you know, he's driving to this place, but really, his mind is at the door of his office, and he's kind of worried about how it will look to his boss. And so like he's kind of Yeah, he's kind of being governed by his compliance sort of child. And once he gets the office, he will play a game of "Look how hard I've tried" to sort of justify why he was late or whatever, right? And Berne says that this person is not really alive.
Ali
Wow. Me everyday at work.
Taimur
Yeah, it's similar to the I don't know. A lot of people in certain online spheres, they use the term like NPC to describe. So the NPC in the game is like a non playable character. It's like a prop.
Ali
It's like a Bug Catcher Tom, who you encounter on your way to..
Taimur
Yeah. Or like some guy who like gives you a quest or something. And then you know, you'd never see him, you know. And so like, it's trying to get this idea of aliveness. And so Person 1 is kind of chiefly preoccupied with, you know, I'm going to be late. You know, he's not really living here. Now, Person 2 is what Berne labels the sulk, he doesn't really mind too much about being late. But he's mostly concerned with having appropriate excuses for it. And so he'll you know, once you get to the office, he'll play a game of "Look what they made me do" where he'll sort of blame his lateness on the traffic and the guy who cut in front of him and blah, blah, blah, okay? And so he's like, he's not as oblivious to his surroundings as the first person. He's aware of them. But only in so far as he can use them as justification to the boss for why he was late. So he's like, half alive or something, right? And then Berne talks about the third person, actually there's four people in total. The third person is really into driving. (laughs) He's like, he's kind of performing the pastime of driving his car. And he's like, taking pleasure in like driving his car to work, you know, he's safe he's alive, good for him. And Person 4 is kind of the pinnacle, where he's, yeah, he has full awareness. So he's like, he's not in a hurry. He kind of knows where he is. He knows when his, he knows, you know, he's aware of how he's feeling. He's kind of, you know, living in the present. And yeah, not worried about, his mind and his body are in the same place, which is in his car driving to work. It's not like his mind is sort of back at home or at work or anything like that. Okay? This awareness thing I think we've touched on it at other points about like, oh, when you're washing the dishes, you should be able to just like, be there washing dishes, when you're brushing the teeth, you should be able to appreciate that. It's that kind of idea. Spontaneity is the other key component to achieving autonomy. And this is like, yeah, this is the goal of the framework to kind of let you choose and express your own feelings, not the feelings that were taught to you, or the feelings that you've seen in other people. And it's kind of liberation from the compulsion to play games, and like the liberation from only having the feelings that you were taught to have by other people. And then there's like, intimacy is sort of the final component of autonomy, where you can have these pure sincere interactions with other people. And so there's a kind of like, the broad strokes of a few different concepts.
Ali
Pun not intended?
Taimur
Oh, nice. Yeah, so those broad strokes are a few different concepts. I think they're good to reflect on. I think PAC, Parent, Adult, Child is a very interesting way to view the world, and so certainly resonates with me. I think, awareness of games is definitely good when you're not game calling. Yeah, that's it. That's kind of the main stuff in Transaction Analysis.
Ali
Is there stuff about kind of, because it sounds like they're advocating for, it sounds like they're advocating for intimacy, which is a sort of interaction, sort of a series of strokes where you're actually being real.
Taimur
Yeah, sure. But it's not advocating for like, oh, you have to have intimacy with every single person all the time.
Ali
Right.
Taimur
Okay? It's advocating for, you know, intimacy kind of being, basically, it's saying that, like, you know, lots of people don't get to intimacy ever in their lives with anyone, you know? You might be married to someone or something, you know, you might have a close group of friends, or whatever, and you can very well struck. Another interesting concept is this idea of like us having structure hunger, which is, it's kind of like, yeah, we want a way to structure the time, you know? It makes us uncomfortable if we're not engaging in some structured activity. And so, yeah, the impression I get is that Berne thinks that many people whittle their whole lives away, you know, on past times and games, just to structure the time And, you know, some like, apparently, some married couples even fall into this where, you know, just to like, feed the structure hunger, they will, like, always be doing something, you know, they'll always be doing some activity, or, you know, or like engaging in some game together, or like, some pastimes, and never really get to intimacy. And he said that, when you kind of find yourself fearing the unstructuredness with another person, that's kind of when you know that you haven't reached sort of intimacy with them, you know?
Ali
You're still in sort of games, pastimes, whatever. And the fact that you don't have a structure to fall back on. It means that you're uncomfortable Yeah, so like, yeah, the point isn't that like, everyone has to be intimate all because like, oh, what do I do now? the time. The point is, like, yeah, you should be intimate with the people that you want to be intimate with. There's nothing wrong with pastimes. Games are usually bad. Beware of them. But yeah intimacy is kind of the goal of like ou interactions with other people. And then the other PAC stuff can hopefully hel you to be aware of your own thoughts and feelings in any wa Nice. That sounds pretty good. So I think in the next episode, we can just kind of go over the different games that people play because I think that'll be interesting.
Taimur
Yeah, it could be interesting. And there's some weird stuff in there. And I think that, yeah, I think like, a lot of Berne's ideas, and you can see that in the examples he gives in the book, are extremely old fashioned, you know. Old fashioned is a very, (laughter) charitable way of viewing them..a lot of them are definitely quite problematic. He seems..
Ali
Perfect.
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
Perfect.
Taimur
Yeah, he seems like a massive prude. I think he, yeah, he mentioned like, there's a whole category. There's different categories of games. It's like there's party games, there's life games, there's a marriage games, those are sexual games. And yeah, he seems to I don't know, I feel like a bunch of psychologists. I think Freud does this a lot as well. Where like, they'll sort of bring everything back to sex for no reason. So like the game that Berne thinks sort of teenager daughters play with their fathers, where they'll kind of get into a shouting match, which will end up in like, someone's slamming a door, basically. That's kind of the conclusion of the game. And you know, like, everyone kind of has these, you know, disagrees with the parents or something. And Berne things of that like, the daughter, a daughter and a father getting into playing this particular game -- I can't remember what it's called -- getting into shouting, a shouting match, which has also one of them slamming the door as a result of some unresolved sexual tension or something like, he thinks this is like, a universal, almost universally applicable thing, which I don't know.
Ali
So we'll have to get a girl on the podcast who's got a father. I've got a few friends who've definitely slammed a few doors in that time. (laughter)
Taimur
Yeah, so look, there's definitely a bunch of stuff that Berne says, and seems to think, which I'm not really on board with
Ali
Fine. We can discuss ideas without having to sort of..
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, but my point was that, like, there's a lot of good stuff in there. And but it needs to be presented in the right way for a modern audience. In the right medium for a modern audience. And, yeah, I'd like to play a part in that in the next few months.
Ali
Fantastic. This is a good place to end this. Do we have any reviews we can read this week?
Taimur
Why don't you read a review, mate?
Ali
I thought you were gonna get one up.
Taimur
Why don't you getting one up?
Ali
Okay, hang on. What was it, is it Chartable?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Oh, here we go. We've got a review from DSHARPD who says. The average of five. he says, "I'm a believer in the adage that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Listening to this podcast and hearing their brilliant insight fills two of those spots for me."
Taimur
Oh, it's nice.
Ali
That's very nice. Thank you, DSHARPD. From Great Britain.
Taimur
Very nice review.
Ali
If you would like to leave us a review. Please do. There should be a link in the show notes and we could read it out on future episode. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next week. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics, we'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@not overthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well. Tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter, please.