Misogyny, Generalisation and Controversial Topics

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
Sheen
 
04.Jan.2021

notes

Ali
[SPONSOR] Hey friends, if you wish you weren't hearing an ad right now then straight after you listen to this episode. Head over to watchnebula.com/not-overthinking with a little hyphen thing in between the not and the overthinking. So watchnebula.com/not- overthinking. Through Nebula, you'll firstly get access to all of our podcast episodes ad free. Secondly, you'll see exclusive content from me and a load of other educational-ish creators. And thirdly, it directly supports this podcast, so you'll incentivize me and Taim to record more episodes. My name is Ali, I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur, I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing today?
Taimur
I'm doing great. I'm actually really looking forward to this episode. I think it's gonna be a really good one. But yeah, the week's gone by really quick, it feels like it was just yesterday that we were recording last week's episode. How are you doing?
Ali
I'm doing great. It's been a very solid week. And today, this episode is particularly exciting, because we are joined by our mutual friend Sheen. Sheen, hello.
Sheen
Hi, guys. How are you today?
Taimur
Doing great. Thanks for joining Sheen. Sheen is a friend of both of ours from university. And she's also a podcaster herself. Do you want to give a quick intro on you?
Sheen
Yes. So, my podcast is called Dream Girl. I started inspired by you guys, obviously. And so but it's a very different style to yours. It's more of a interview style where I have different female guests every week, and we just talk about their journey, their career, their aspirations kind of thing.
Taimur
Awesome. Sounds great. We'll put a link in the show notes. So this week, I think last year we've had lots of comments over the, over the years saying that we are slightly misogynistic on the podcast. And so that is something that I wanted to dig into this week. And actually following last week's episode, we had a bunch of comments, specifically saying that was last week's episode was really misogynistic. We had like multiple people saying this on Twitter, the DMs. And so I thought it would be great to actually dig into this. And Sheen in particular get your thoughts on like, you know, what are the things that we're doing or saying that are misogynistic? Or could be interpreted as misogynistic? And how do we, you know, how do we get better going forwards?
Sheen
Sure. I have a question. Before we launch into this, do you only get this based on the podcast? Or do you get this in general as part of your conversations as well?
Taimur
Like in real life?
Sheen
In real life.
Taimur
I don't get it in real life. Ali, do you get it in real life?
Ali
It depends on the friendship group (laughter).
Taimur
Depends if it's a girl that I'm friends with (laughter).
Ali
No, so I don't, I think I don't really get it in real life. I used to have these sorts of gender issues discussions a lot at university, like in my first like, two, three years of university; sort of stopped having them after that for various reasons. But, I mean, it's sort of thing I'm very interested in as a general topic. And I always think it makes for interesting discussion for people who are, who also feel the same way, so.
Taimur
Yeah.
Sheen
Okay, so you don't get it in real life Taimur but on the podcast you also get accused of it. Not just that like..
Taimur
I have a feeling the accusations of the podcast are mainly directed at Ali. I'm gonna go out on a limb. (laughter) Ali, does that seem fair? Or accurate?
Ali
So you've seen most of the comments about the podcast rather than me. So if that's your assessment of it, then..
Sheen
Yeah, lets start with the comments. I've seen a few but not all of them.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah, I just think Ali's sort of.. saying more risque stuf . Okay, so before we launch into that, Ali, who's sponsoring today's epis de?
Ali
[SPONSOR] Oh, yes, this episode is brought to you by none other than Skillshare. Yes, they are sponsoring us yet again, for 2021, which is absolutely fantastic. Skillshare, if you guys haven't heard by now, is a fantastic onlin platform for classes on a load of random things, not random things, but lik really useful things, from business and entrepreneurship to creativity an design and interior design and cooking. In fact, I've got seven classes o Skillshare at this point. Two of them are about productivity; two of them are about effective studying; one of them is about how to be happier using lessons from stoicism, and we've even recently released one where a friend of mine teaches me how to cook, which is a little bit dubious. But if you want to check all of those out, you can get a free trial of Skillshare by going to skillshare.com/notoverthinkingpod. And then after your free trial, the annual premium subscription is less than $10 a month that gives you free access to the 1000s of online classes that they've got over at Skillshare. And it's definitely much better for you than a subscription to Netflix. So yeah, skillshare.com/notoverthinkingpod to sign up to your free trial or hit the link in the show notes. How's that?
Taimur
Loved it. It gets better every time actually. Sheen, what do you think? Are you sold on Skillshare?
Sheen
I'm sold. I'm sold.
Taimur
Amazing. Amazing. We'll give you a cut after the episode. By the way, your camera is like very I mean Ali's in the center of the frame and then Sheen is kind off to the side. Why don't you just..
Sheen
Shuffle a bit.
Taimur
And you know what move the cam
Ali
I'm being constrained by the desk right now (...)
Taimur
Okay, cool. So how should we approach this? So Sheen actually did you, did you get a chance to listen to last week's episode of the podcast?
Sheen
I did, I listened to the middle section of it.
Taimur
Yeah, okay.
Sheen
I did.
Taimur
Right, so I'll give a quick recap for people who didn't listen to last week's episode. So there was maybe for about 20 minutes, I think Ali was talking about how.. Ali was talking about some of the advice that he's gotten from friends of his, primarily female friends, about how he can be more attractive to women in general. And the advice was, things like, you know, you want to project more masculine energy and less feminine energy. So wear less pink and wear more black things like that, you know. Don't be so like, I guess smiley and chirpy in your YouTube videos, and maybe be a bit more like stoic and, you know, cool, I suppose, you know, things of that nature. And so we were just kind of talking about some of these things that other people have told Ali about how he can be more attractive to women. Is that a fair assessment? Sheen and Ali both listen to the episode.
Sheen
Yeah, that's a good summary, I think.
Taimur
Okay, cool.
Ali
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I'm baffled as to why that resulted in accusations of misogyny. And I would love to understand why. Because in my head that doesn't seem at all misogynistic. But clearly, if people think it is, then there is some kind of understanding or interpretation gap here, which I think we're all working to understand.
Sheen
I think the first thing is, it was very clear that you were sharing what other people told you rather than sharing your own opinions about this, right?
Ali
I thought too.
Sheen
I thought so too, after listening yesterday. So I do agree with you on that, that it wasn't your own thoughts and feelings about this. You were not saying that pink makes you look more feminine. So you getting hating that you said, that is not right. But if you were to dig a bit deeper into the actual statements, what do you guys think of the statements before we launch into this? Let's start with Taimur.
Taimur
I think on the podcast, I actually said that I was highly skeptical of all of them. I was like, really? Like you're taking this stuff seriously? So I look, I think it broadly makes sense on a very macro level. Like if you're really trying to sort of optimize your image on a very macro level, given that you know, nothing about the potential audience, then fine. Yes, wearing black might make you seem a bit more masculine than wearing pink, you know, things like that. But these kind of really macro level very general optimizations. I don't know. I'm not super into them myself.
Sheen
Yeah, what about you?
Ali
I think usually when so, yeah, I agree with that point, that these are kind of macro broad level generalizations. And I suppose the way that I see it is point number one, which people may or may not disagree with it is the fact that or let's not say fact. It's the idea that you can even make such a macro broad level generalization. That is often I find when I have these conversations in real life, you know, with friends in good faith, where we're all arguing, well, we're all talking about this fairly dispassionately. I find that is point number one where the comment will often be made as "oh, but you can't really make such a generalization because all women are different." All words to that effect. And so I think Taimur the fact that you're the way you're talking about it now, it's basically as if it's a given that you can make these broad macro level generalizations.
Taimur
Yeah, I guess so.
Ali
And I agree, I agree that you can, but often, that is a stumbling block, and with these conversations going forward.
Taimur
So actually, some of the people who messaged on Twitter had issue with the generalizations. Let me just, I'm not gonna like, specifically out any particular people, but I'll sort of summarize what people said. Okay, yeah, someone objected to us referring to the ladies as a monolithic group. So I guess that's kind of the idea of like, generalization. Disliking the generalization. Yeah, someone said that we apparently intend to assign specific traits and behaviors to the different genders. And that is sort of bad, basically. And sec, yeah, I think that the general vibe that some people get when, because the thing is we, I mean, we occasionally talk about this kind of thing on the po cast, like dating or whatever. And we generally don't talk about sort of, you kn w, women or gender stuff outside of that context, because like, we're two du es. What the hell are we going to talk about, like about women, just the two of us like so the only context in which we sort of opine or chat about the stuff re ating to gender and, you know, male female interaction is through the lens of da And so I think when that is the only airtime that sort of women's issues or ing. whatever you want to call it, gets on the podcast, then it kind of gives this im ression that I think it probably gives like a very skewed impression because like the the only times we talk about women were like talking about how to be m re attractive or whatever, you know, and I think some people get the the impress on that we're sort of..someone said this in a tweet, "Each time you talk about women, it's as if you were talking about some kind of foreign and myste ious creatures that are so difficult to understand". Does that make sense, Shee ? I can see how someone would get that vibe.
Sheen
I understand now that now that you said, you know, you guys only talk about women in this light of because why else would you talk about women? I understand that. That makes sense, right? Unless I don't know. Unless you're talking about role models and stuff, which we have discussed before with Ali, that you don't tend to have a lot of female role models in your life. Do you?
Ali
I mean apart from my mom. If she's listening to this. I've got that brownie point.
Sheen
But yeah, so that kind of maybe that's what people mean, you know, you never talk about maybe some woman that you look up to, or you're very proud of the work that they've done. Or you talk about this woman that you're impressed by what they've done. But the only time you talk about women is in this dating light. So that might be where this is coming from, right? Do you see the other side of this?
Taimur
Potentially, but I actually think that is I think that's inaccurate. And I think this is a sign that one of the people on Twitter also mentioned, I think they mentioned you know, a bunch of stuff of like, I don't like that you make generalizations and a few other things. Oh, and by the way, like, all the people you've ever talked about on the podcast are men; like all the books, you read are by men and stuff like that. And this is just factually, it could not be further from the truth. I think the most, the most mentioned, book and author is Agnes Callard and her book Aspiration, I mentioned Agnes's Aspiration, almost every episode for the past six months or something. By far, she's the most cited person on this podcast, the stuff that I was sort of, yeah, we had a couple of episodes digging into a bunch of stuff relating to kids, all the sources for that. So all the people who wrote those papers, also women, or rather, not men, I'm actually not sure how they identify. And then a bunch of the other books that we've sort of mentioned and talked about are also by women. And so I feel like what yeah, I actually think that criticism is really unfair. And I wasn't, I was kind of annoyed when I when I read that on Twitter. Because I think, here's the thing, I think when it comes to sort of controversial topics, you know, like gender, or whatever, you know, race and things like that. When it comes to controversial topics, the thing that makes it difficult to talk about them is that there's a danger of someone not actually listening to precisely what you're saying, and just looking at the broad theme and pattern-matching it onto some bad things. So for example, if someone says, you know -- alright, let me try to think of an example.. it's not too problematic -- Right, so for example, if someone might say in a conversation "I think there are biological differences between men and women." Right? And, you know, that's quite a specific statement, you know, you're not saying anything particularly extreme, because you're saying something quite specific, and quite constrained. And if for example, two dudes on a podcast, say something like "oh, I think there are biological differences between men and women." Then someone you know, someone who's listening, there's a danger of them just like pattern matching it into two dudes talking about women, they're saying there's differences between men and women. Oh, so you're saying women are inferior to men kind of thing. And I think this sort of framing of like "Oh, so you're saying x, y and z is something that comes up quite a lot." And I think this particularly annoys me, because I do try and take a lot of care to be very specific and precise about what I'm saying and the language I'm using, and to then like have someone sort of squint, squint at that, and think it looks kind of similar to some, you know, something problematic that someone else might have said, you know, that I find that really, really frustrating. And I think that's a lot of what actually goes on, what actually makes these conversations difficult is because the people take the specific sort of thing, they sort of blur it a bit, they sort of squint and they zoom out and then they sort of, you know, paint over it with some generic odd, you know, these people are saying x, y and z when actually they're not.
Ali
And this is actually one of Jordan Peterson's most common critiques of having these sorts of similar conversations with you. If you watch interviews by him, often the people in the comments will be pointing out explicitly, the fact that he is so careful with the words that he uses and how the interviewer, whether man or woman will often take a specific point, turn it into a generalization and try and put words in his mouth. It's interesting even to mention Jordan Peterson, because there are going to be some people listening to this who take issue with Jordan Peterson as a whole. Probably not having read much of his stuff or seen much of his stuff, but have, but sort of view him as a figure for I don't know, whatever, bad things, and therefore "oh my God, two dudes on a podcast mentioning Jordan Peterson" this is Bad with a capital B, regardless of what is actually being said. What do you think of that, Sheen?
Sheen
I think I agree with you with the whole extrapolation thing, especially if you know that you are being careful in the way you weigh the words that you use, etc, then you will always find some people who will nitpick and find the issue with what you're saying. And as you said, I totally relate with the whole "sometimes people just listen to one bit of it, and then they just assume based on previous experience on what they think is wrong than the just this is terrible". I'll agree on you. On this one with you.
Taimur
Yeah. So I think that's partly what makes it difficult to talk about these things. And I think it's just really bad. Like, this is the reason that, you know, there's this concept of the Overton Window or whatever right? Of like, the window of acceptable things that you can talk about in public. And you know, lots of people saying, oh, man, the Overton Window is like really shrinking like this. And getting becoming fewer and fewer things we can talk about.
Sheen
With people being looked.
Taimur
Yeah. And I think a big reason is because, you know, you can try, even if you try and have like, a very specific and precise conversation, it can often be misconstrued into something else. And it doesn't mean that these conversations wouldn't happen. The conversation will just happen more in public, like, I think, yeah, sorry more in private rather. Yeah, I think like, you know, whatever like dangerous ideas, if you want to call them that are floating out there and are becoming less and less easy to talk about in the mainstream. The ideas aren't going away. They're just going into private group chats and in private groups and things like that. And I think this thing of like not understanding precisely what someone is trying to say, and instead, like, brushing over it with some other thing, that is like a big reason, and I think this is just really bad. I think it's terrible.
Ali
Do you feel similarly, Sheen? Feel like..
Sheen
About?
Ali
About this particular point.
Sheen
Which one?
Ali
The Overton Window point that the realm of, "acceptable things to say in public" is shrinking over time. And Taimur's view is that this is bad. To what extent do you agree?
Sheen
Yeah. So I think there are some good things about the window is shrinking, right? Because there are things like being racist, being sexist and being ablist are now not acceptable. And I think that's a bit more inclusive to people, although you can't talk about these things now. But it means that a lot more people are not being offended anymore. And I think that's good. I do agree on the point that people are also now offended by everything in anything And this is very, I think this is a bit controversial. But I think, obviously, we should be able to communicate our point of view without feeling like you will offend somebody, therefore, you can't share this because as Taimur said, it doesn't mean that you don't think like this anymore. It just means that you're not sharing it with people in public. So it doesn't really solve the problem that people think they are solving by shrinking the window, if that makes sense.
Taimur
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think there's definitely, you know, lots of good things about it being unacceptable to say certain things in public for sure. Yeah.
Ali
So I guess kind of taking a step back, we started with the idea of macro level generalizations, which we still need to sort of angle a little bit. And then sort of usually, I think the way, the argument usually goes, is that okay. Assuming that it is possible, in the first place to make broad macro level generalizations about a group of people. At that point, the next question becomes, to what extent is it useful to make macro broad level generalizations about certain groups of people? What extent does it can or should it inform your personal behavior in whatever domain you want? And is this like a moral good, or a moral bad regardless of what the outcome, what the goal oriented outcome might be? And so that's sort of that's my understanding of the argument in abstract. I guess we should start with the generalization issue because we still haven't figured out. How do you feel about?
Sheen
Generalization? Okay, so the problem I have with a generalization is that it kind of once you're looking at someone through the subjective lenses of the group that they should belong to, then you're kind of removing, like taking them away from being the subject to their own story. So that's kind of like group versus individual, right? And that's kind of the authorize term that has come up that you then. And the problem with that comes with that is that now people are so individualistic, and like, people are very different from each other. And the fact that you are grouping everyone together based on their gender or their race, then it not only is demeaning, but it also limits their power and what they can achieve, because it limits it to the power of the group that you're putting them into. And I think that's a bit problematic, a bit. Is very problematic. And I think I take issue personally of generalization. I do not agree with using general terms, I don't think it is valid in any way. And as a scientist, there are also many, many, many conversations about generalization in terms of studies, because, you know, studies are done in smaller population. And then there's this big conversation happenings, whether how transferable is this data? How transferable is it to the all the population, and I think that's why, having seen it on both sides -- and I have seen, you know, how, you know, ou can't do a study, for example, with everyone in the world. So you do have to o it in a smaller population, and then extrapolate that result. And I nderstand that, but I do not see the point when we're talking about social hings about, you know, gender or race, why we should have a general idea of hat people are, I know it instructs like social interactions, and it might he p you with deciding how you will behave. But I do not agree with a concept n general. So there you go.
Taimur
Wait, sorry. So you said you don't agree with the concepts in general, does that mean you don't think there are actually any meaningful generalizations that can be made about sort of women versus men? Or do you think you could probably make some meaningful generalizations by you know, by saying, you know, women are more likely to do X or more likely to be interested in X? You think? Like, do you think there are those generalizations that are somewhat accurate? It's just like, bad to think in that way? Or do you think there actually aren't any accurate generalizations?
Sheen
But again, it depends, right? I'm sure. There are some things that do apply to a lot of women, but it doesn't mean that I don't see the point of doing it. So if you give me an example, let's go into it. Give me an example where you think it could be...
Taimur
Ali, we can use the example from the last episode. So why don't you pick one?
Ali
Okay, I think we're in danger of going too far here. Because I guess what I want to get first is, so for example, presumably, it's not particularly controversial to say that, in general, women have less muscle mass than men.
Sheen
Okay?
Ali
(laughter) Would it be reasonable, do you agree with that statement?
Sheen
I don't know when you said that the first image that came into my mind were these women that are now you know, very muscular, and like, for example, my friend Jamie, who is very, very fit, and she's got like, 3% body fat or something. So, I don't know if I agree with this. Because for me, you are alienating those women by making this generalization.
Ali
Okay,I think this is a very interesting stumbling point, right off the bat. Where I am talking broad macro in terms of population averages, and you are using a specific concrete example to as a sort of reason to disagree with the broad general point. Do you think that's reasonable?
Sheen
But I don't see the point of a general concept that doesn't have everyone in it.
Ali
Oh, okay. So, you think I guess I'm sort of being nitpicky about this, but this is like crucially important. Number one, is the generalization accurate? And point number two is, is it useful to make such a generalization? Let's just focus on the accuracy of the point. And by generalization. I just mean, 51%. Like, all that has to be true for a generalization to hold true is that it applies to most, or even lots of people in a particular group. If there is a lot of variation, then even if it's less than 51%, if there's 34% of something, but it that's actually the big, that's the modal value. It would still. That's my definition of generalization. All it requires is 51% or that this thing to be true for most but normal people.
Sheen
Fine. Okay, on the accuracy I'll give it to you.
Ali
Right. So, it would be reasonable to say that women in general have lower muscle mass than men.
Sheen
Okay.
Ali
Okay. Cool. That's you know, generally uncontroversial thing, because it's very biological and very testable.
Sheen
Okay.
Ali
Presumably you would take issue with the accuracy of a generalization if it was more of a social thing.
Sheen
Yes. For example, if you say women are more empathetic or something like women have more empathy.
Ali
Okay, you think that would be an inaccurate generalization?
Sheen
No, but that's the thing. This is feminine energy, right?
Ali
Okay. No, no, no. It's not. Specific empathy which people have done studies on and I've tested with empathy questionnaires, do you think that those studies would show? hypothetically, if you were to pick a random woman out of population or random man out of the population, and you have to put money on which of them we're more empathetic? I personally would choose the woman
Taimur
Get out of here (laughter).
Sheen
I just don't see the point of it.
Taimur
it's not about the point.
Ali
..the accuracy of the claim first, and then we can talk in depth about the point of it.
Sheen
Fine.
Taimur
Do you feel attacked right now, Sheen? I feel like..
Sheen
I do.
Taimur
You feel a bit attacked, right? Can we go into that a bit, please? I don't want you to feel attacked.
Sheen
No, it's okay. It's okay. I don't feel attacked. I just don't like this concept of, you know, thinking that women have more feelings, because this is this whole thing about, you know, feminine energy and masculine energy, and both genders have both. And it's just that you manifest a bit more of one of those, depending on who you are, rather than what which gender you belong to, right? And I think that's why I don't agree, if necessarily with your statement that if you pick a random men and random woman, the woman will be the one who has more empathy.
Ali
Probabilistically, the woman would be more likely. Let's switch it around. If you were to pick a random woman and random male out of the population, which of those would you put money on, on average, to display higher aggression via whatever means you want via scientifically validated questionnaires of aggression. People would say that, you know, men, it would be something like 55%-45% men, like there's a very small difference on the mean, but like, in general, you would expect men to be more aggressive than women. Partly, this explains, some people would say why the vast majority of people in prison are men rather than women.
Sheen
But how is that?
Ali
The point is that whether it's useful or not, it comes later, the accuracy of it comes first.
Sheen
No, but just on your last statement, saying that more men are in prison than women, then that saying that the reason that there are more black men in prison than white men is because black men are more aggressive than white men. There is a systemic issue there as well, that is not being taken into account. So I don't think just looking at this data without looking at all of the other, you know, aspects of what, you know.
Taimur
That's a little, that's a little harsh. I feel like you did the thing where Ali said something very precise.
Sheen
I'm using an example, I'm telling him why his statement is wrong, it's a different environment.
Taimur
His statement wasn't, I believe his statement was something like, perhaps this extra aggression might be able to explain why there are more men than women in prison. And then you said "Oh, so you want to use that to explain why there's more black men in prison"
Sheen
That's not what I said. I said would you say, because I'm trying to tell him that even if there are more men in prison than women, it could not necessarily be the result of aggression.
Taimur
I don't believe that Ali was really claiming that aggression.
Sheen
I'm just countering his point. I'm not saying that's what he said.
Ali
You're countering a point that, you know, that I didn't say.
Taimur
Okay, I think we should take a step back. It seems like, I think a lot of this comes down to just like, a level of comfort with sort of the saying this kind of stuff. Like, it seems like Sheen, you're quite uneasy about this whole topic area. And that's presumably because you think, like, there are actual, you know, bad things that could happen. Or like, there are ways that this kind of mindset can go wrong, that lead to bad things happening. Like you're just very uneasy about this, at least compared to Ali and me right now.
Sheen
I think it's just this whole idea of, you know, trying not to other-ize people, which comes with the generalization thing.
Taimur
Okay, yeah.
Sheen
What I don't like using big terms, like for example, women in prison or men in prison, or pick a random men and a random woman from a general population and do not see the point in that and I feel like this in today's world and today's time, you just cannot do that. And it doesn't lead you anywhere. During this kind of assessment. You could be factually correct with what you're saying. But what's the point of that and how does that inform anything else.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
Okay, fantastic. So it sounds like we're agreed on the point where that it is, and please correct me if this is not your point. It sounds like we're all agreed that you could potentially make these sorts statements about general populations. But the thing that you particularly take issue with it is about what the point is of making such generalizations. Just before we move on, I was interested in your kind of group versus individual thing that you said earlier, you said, by lumping and again, please correct me if this is not what you actually said. But my understanding of what you said is that by lumping people, by lumping individuals into a group, you remove their individual identity.
Sheen
Yes.
Ali
And this is bad.
Sheen
Yes.
Ali
Okay. I mean, forgive me if this seems facetious, but like, for example, if I were to say, you know, a great eight piano players in general, put 3000 hours of practice in their teenage years. I mean, sure, some of them don't, would making a general comment about a group really remove the power from the individual to make a statement like that. Or if there's something very specific about the specific group that makes it problematic to make a statement like that.
Sheen
I think this group versus individual becomes a problem, especially when you're talking about underrepresented groups. So not about piano players. It's more about when you're talking about gender, or about race. And this is where it becomes a problem. For example, I read this really interesting thing, which was talking about contemporary female leaders. So to give you two example, the first one is Ivanka Trump. And the second one is AOC. You know, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, you know who they are? Okay, cool. So two very different female leaders in our times very similar age. And they're both if you just can say that female, we need more female leaders, like these two, then if you're bracketing them together as young female leaders in America, but there are two very different people and their approach to leadership is very different. And their backgrounds are very different, what they bring to the table is different, what they believe in are different. So, it's just there. Do you see the problem there with bracketing these two people together, saying that generally female leaders are this and that, when you're talking about these two. Then you are completely missing the point as to what they stand for, and what they could do, because then you're limiting their potential, and you're limiting what they represent. And you're just bracketing them together. Whereas if you were talking about them to individually about their approach and the things that they do, then you would see the story behind.
Ali
And it's the fact that women leaders are an underrepresented group that makes it particularly problematic.
Sheen
It's just that, yes.
Ali
For example, if you were to say, male CEOs of fortune five companies tend to be white. That would probably not be what people say "Oh my God, that's problematic." Probably not because it's a good degree of in power, and it's not an underrepresented group and why people are power men are in power CEOs are empowered, etc, etc. So you wouldn't, that wouldn't annoy you as much as for example, someone saying that someone making a general comment about female leaders in America?
Sheen
Yes, and no, like, obviously, I would relate less to that to and as you said, you know, there are the group of people in power. So it's not like they're fighting anything. But caveat, obviously, because again, you need to look at the individual level, someone might be white, and a CEO now that might have come from nothing, you know, so that's different to somebody who has, like, you know, grandfather's just passed down the business to them. So I do disagree with, you know, just generalization in general. But I do see the harm that it causes for underrepresented groups.
Ali
I see. Okay, I'm actually going to stop this recording, just to make sure everything is recording, because our audio waveforms seem not to be visible, but you can hear us, right?
Taimur
Yeah, I can.
Ali
I'm gonna stop this. Okay, cool. I think we've made some progress here. I feel like I understand more where you're coming from. Okay. So, kind of coming back to this generalization thing. We're agreed to that generalizations may be accurate, but we feel that or you feel rather that generalizations are not useful. Is that a fair place to kind of continue this, Taimur?
Sheen
What do you guys feel about it?
Taimur
I think we're all agreed that there are some generalizations that you can make, which are accurate in the general sense. And yeah, I think we touched on this a moment ago, but I think it really, like a lot of the difficulty, I think just comes down to, like, yeah, just like the difference between, just like the understanding of what a statistic is, right? Like a statistic is a number that summarizes some kind of sample. And in a lot of these conversations, you know, if you, if you try and talk about a statistic, you know, someone will then compare that to an individual, you know, member of the group or individual and an individual data point or whatever. And it's like, it's sort of talking past each other. And I think in a lot of these conversations, there's a lot of talking past each other where someone might say, you know, on average, if you look at the distribution something something something something is slightly more likely than something, something something else. And then someone else would be like "Oh, so you're saying like all X or Y." you know, stuff like that. And I think there's there's an awful lot of talking past each other because I guess it's just like, it's a bit of a counterintuitive concept. Like generally in our lives, we're used to dealing with things, we're used to dealing with concrete specific things, right? And it takes a bit of a step to abstract away from that, and consider a whole populations and see what kinds of what kinds of trends there might be in larger populations. So I think that's that's like a big issue. I'm glad we kind of cottoned on to that. I think like, in terms of, I think before we talk about the usefulness, I think it's worth, I think there are different ways to apply generalizations, right? And I think the issue, I think, where generalizations can go wrong, is if the, you know, in the same way that you can misunderstand what a statistic is, and think that you're trying to make a comment about every single person. You can also misunderstand what a statistic is, and give it too much weight when dealing with an individual. So for example, you know, in the case of aggression, or whatever, you know, like, you know, maybe men have on average, slightly more likely to be more aggressive than women or something like that, right. As a statistic, find it's accurate. I mean, I'm sure we can get on board with that. But then if you, for example, go through your life, assuming that every man is extremely aggressive, that's probably not a great thing to do. And that's probably, you know, it's probably not going to help you out much, right? And so I think like, the issue that people have, when it comes to sort of generalizing in the realm of like dating and stuff like that is you can say some very general statistic of like on average, if I wear a black hoodie, I will be seen as more masculine than if I wear a pink hoodie. But then if you like, if in a one to one interaction, you then still are still viewing the other person through this statistical lens. Rather than viewing them as an individual, then I think that's where things become problematic. And I think that's where the the sort of usefulness comes in? Like, it depends on how you're using the generalization.
Sheen
Agreed.
Ali
Agreed.
Taimur
Right. Well, thank you for listening (laughter).
Ali
I think you and I have discussed something similar, Taim, in the realm of sort of social science studies and statistics and generalizations in terms of things like happiness as well. For example, it would be you know, a generalization that in general the longer your commute, the less happy you are, the less satisfied you're likely to be with your job. And if you use that generalization, to say that, okay, well, you know, if you look at all the data sets, the average, you know, the ideal commute time seems to be 20 minutes, but then there is your dream job, which is 25 minutes away, and you're saying, you know, the average commute time is 20 minutes I can't be doing that. You're sort of in danger of reading too much into the generalization. But I personally think if you're kind of choosing between things, or if you've got multiple different job offers going on, then knowing that actually all of the studies showed that the longer your commute, the less happy you're likely to be in life, could be a useful data points to take into account when making a decision about where to live, or what jobs, what job to have, it just sort of depends on what specifically you're using the generalization for.
Taimur
Yeah. So I mean, Sheen, it seems like you feel more passionately about the misuse of generalizations. Like have you, you know, as, for example, you are a woman of color, do you feel like, you know, have you had experiences where you feel like you haven't really been treated as an individual and instead, you're sort of just treated as a sort of generic woman of color in some way?
Sheen
Well, I've told this story before from our first episode. Basically, in my whole department, I was in the department of material science in Cambridge. And it's, you know, a lot more men than women in there. And there are only two brown girls in this whole department, me and my friend Malavika. We're both in the same year doing the same thing. And people just think we're the same person. And we look nothing alike, other than the fact that we're brown. She got short hair, I've got long hair, she's shorter than me. And it's just all very, very different characteristics. But people still think I'm her and people think she's me. And that's a generalization, you see, because it's just like, okay, I think it is just not fun. Especially because one time she took part in this competition for presenting something. And she did an amazing job. She won the first prize. And then this woman who works in the department, who has taught me several times, came up to me saying "Did you win the first prize?" And I was like "No, I didn't." And she was like "But you did such a good job" and I was like "No, Malavika did it, she won." She was like "No, but you did well, it's okay. Good luck next time." I was like, I didn't take part in this. Do you see like how awful this is? And everytime she gets interviewed, and she gets things and the people who did the interview, congratulate me for getting it. How awful this is, will look nothing alike. And that you see, that's a problem with generalization that sometimes you are overlooked completely, and you just feel like okay, people don't see me for who I am. And this is a very, like, very skewed in terms of the physical kind of way of generalizing, rather than generalizing a group of people together, that's different. But yeah, that's just an example to tell you, yes, I have experienced it. And women in general experience it quite a lot. For example, when you're in the lab, when you're being trained, they'll tell you things like, okay, you know, just make sure that you don't wear open toes stuff, but this will not be told to men, because they assume that, you know, being women, you're gonna wear that. And it's just, it just feels very odd sometimes when they say these things to you, rather than to a whole group of everyone. And these are very, like, innocent examples. But it can get a lot more deeper and in danger zones when it comes to you know, giving someone a promotion in terms of giving somebody a job offer or promoting somebody to being a leader because, you know, these kind of biases exist and these group mentality leads to stereotypes being taken into account.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, that sounds pretty frustrating. I think Ali and I probably haven't experienced much of like being misgeneralized. And that's probably why we don't have the same sense of like weariness and unease about talking in this way and talking about this kind of stuff than you do. Does that seem fair?
Sheen
Yeah, I agree. It is a lot of like, shared experience that kind of makes you care a lot more about things.
Ali
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think also, are we using different definitions of the word generalization? Because for example, when I say generalization in my head, what I mean is broad statistical average. Whereas your experience of sort of being misidentified as Malavika, would not fall into my category of broad, statistical average, but it would fall under your category of generalization.
Sheen
Yeah, I see that. You'd really think about the 51%. But I think, generally, people do think that when you're talking about generalization, you're just thinking of, you know, grouping people together. And assuming that given that they share this one trait, or this one characteristic or something, then they all belong together, and they will all behave the same. You know, that's what generalization means in terms of social sciences. It's not the statistical 51%.
Ali
Great, so in social sciences, generalization means all as opposed to most?
Sheen
Yes, generalization means a general group of people, it just means, like for example, when you're generalizing women, it just means that you are grouping all women together.
Ali
In social sciences?
Sheen
Yes. That's the whole term of otherizing that came out as well out o this, which is, yes. So it's not 51
Ali
I think I understand generalization completely wrong, entirely all my life then.
Taimur
Wait, so Sheen, you're saying in the social sciences, generalization means to group everyone together?
Sheen
Not everyone, like a group of something.
Taimur
That doesn't seem at odds with what Ali's saying. Like, I mean, it seems, you know, if you're making a generalization about a particular group of say, women, obviously, you're grouping all women together in order to make that generalization. Right?
Sheen
Yes.
Taimur
Like that doesn't seem at odds with the fact.
Ali
It sounds like Sheen is saying that in the social sciences, when you use the word generalization, you are applying this category to every member of that group, as opposed to viewing it as a broad statistical average, that's shared by most people in the group i.e. 51%. I'm still suspicious of this. But if that's..
Sheen
You can be suspicious. But now I see your point. Because you completely think in terms of when you're seeing generally women this or that, you're just thinking 51%,
Ali
I'm thinking, exactly.
Sheen
Of the whole population of women. Okay. Well, that's not what generali ation means when you're talking about generalization versus individual appro ch. It just means that literally, it means that you are bracketing this gro p of people together. And if you pick one of them out of there, you are sure hat this is the behavior that they're going to do. Like it's
Ali
So, you're saying in social science studies when they use the word.
Sheen
I'm saying in like, when you're talking about this, in like, this..
Ali
I see. So, you're saying in common parlance. When you use the word generalization in the context of a sort of discussion where you're having these sorts of issues. People will think that when you say in general women are like x, they will, then people will think, "Oh, so you're saying, all women are like x as opposed to some/most women are like x." Whereas I guess what Taim and I are saying is that when you use the word generalization in a statistical or mathematical or scientific fashion, you'd literally just mean 51%.
Sheen
Yeah, no. Okay. Let me re-phrase I don't mean social sciences studies, I mean in a social setting.
Taimur
Oh my God, come on.
Ali
That really changes the game. I was gonna, I was literally going to go on Google to find let's bring up a random search and find out that this is totally wrong. Okay, in a social setting.
Sheen
Yeah.
Ali
People think the word generalization means everyone?
Sheen
Everyone.
Ali
Okay. Whereas what we are talking about in our podcast, and certainly when I use the word generalization in conversations you and I have. I literally mean 51%.
Taimur
Okay. Yeah. I think that's definitely a big part of the difficulty. So on another sort of set of, I mean, I feel like we've talked about the generalization stuff.
Ali
I think like the next thing I've got on my list, yeah, we were talking about to what extent is this useful? And I think that was a lot of the issue people took with last week's episode, where it's like, okay, a, you know, the wearing pink and wearing black is like a sort of it's like a taking the piss generalization, which is probably not even accurate. There are other generalizations that one could theoretically make in the realm of dating, which are probably accurate.
Taimur
Do it. I'm all ears.
Ali
Question is, are they useful?
Taimur
Okay, so what was some of the other stuff from the episode?
Sheen
I think lot about the feminine and masculine energy.
Ali
Yeah, people probably take issue with that.
Sheen
Yes, which is what I was trying to explain earlier is that everybody is born with a bit of masculine and feminine energy, which some people describe as Yin and Yang. And it's just that you manifest one of them a bit more strongly. And the misconception is that this is assigned to your gender, that so someone who is born female will have more feminine energy, and someone who's born male will have more male energy, masculine energy, sorry. And I think this is where it becomes a bit problematic, especially in today's time, where.. Why are you smiling, Taimur?
Taimur
No, go on, go on.
Sheen
With a you know, you have masculine women, and you have feminine men, and that's absolutely fine as long as you are comfortable being who you are. And I think, then the problem when you are saying these things, like you know, wearing pink doesn't make you masculine.
Ali
Also what I said.
Sheen
Not you -- the general "you". When somebody is saying that pink i not masculine, is it leads to this kind of like, general idea of this. And then the problem that comes from this is not immediate or direct, right? When you think about like a teenage boy who is a bit feminine in school, and who wears pink, and is very happy doing that. And that's absolutely fine. But then if the general idea is that he's gonna get bullied, because he's not considered masculine enough. And that's why it's a problem to say these things out loud, you know, because it leads to perpetuating these like, social stereotypes that we need to move away from. And I think that's why it's not that's probably why most people took problem with that, why I took problem with it as well, with this statement of wearing pink is wear black instead of pink to look more masculine.
Ali
Okay. Can I just say, I'm so glad that you're the one who said the last two minutes, because I feel like if Taimur or I had thought to use the words like phrases like "Well, you know, some people are born with masculine energy and feminine energy" And it's not quite associated with gender..
Sheen
No, everyone is born with both is what I said.
Ali
But even the characterization of energy as being masculine or feminine, I would have thought is sort of anti woke and I would have been uncomfortable saying it out loud.
Sheen
It's not.
Ali
Is it not?
Sheen
No.
Ali
Okay.
Sheen
This is the whole point that everyone is born with all of these. And also, what do you understand by masculine energy?
Ali
I was gonna ask you. What is masculine and feminine energy?
Sheen
Exactly. What do you think they are?
Ali
I don't know what they are because I don't really use the terms but I would love to hear what you think of.
Sheen
What do you think they are, Taimur?
Taimur
Again, I don't really use the tones.
Sheen
Okay, but you have an idea of what they are?
Taimur
Yeah, of course, I think everyone has an idea of what they would be, right? Like, there is a set of, you know, things which are traditionally con idered masculine and there's a set of things which are traditionally considered feminine, right? And I guess traditionally, you know, the things associated wit masculinity are sort of you know, physical strength, you know, maybe some lev l of aggression, you know, things like that. The things associated with feminini y are, you know, gentleness and, you know, things like that, like, that's basica ly that would be my idea of what is masculine energy and what is
Sheen
Well, you're correct and like the broader definition is very much tied to traditional ideas of what masculine and feminine. And masculine energy is all about being assertive being a bit more of, you know, go getter kind of vibe, whereas feminine energy is a bit more, you know, the carer, the one who cares about everybody, and, you know, being kind and, you know, bringing the community together kind of thing, which is why everybody has a mix of both, and you just manifest one a bit more strongly than the other, because I definitely threaten t beat you quite a lot. So that's...
Taimur
Okay. (laughs)
Sheen
And, you know, that's absolutely fine. And I am not. That's why I feel like it's very problematic, even probably to just use these terms.
Taimur
Yeah, it sounds.. I mean, I think, I personally think it's probably problematic.
Sheen
I agree, I agree, I think we should move away from these because even considering assertiveness as masculine energy is wrong. But then again, when you look at for instances, when, for example, there's this study, that shows that when a woman is being described as assertive and bossy, and all of that, if she was not first described as a woman it's seen as positive, but if they knew that this is a woman, then it's seen as negative. Again, you know, there's a lot of like, associated baggage with all of this, which explains why it's problematic to think that way to use these kind of like, old fashioned ways of characterizing people.
Ali
I'm on board.
Taimur
So, okay, so in this case, and let's stick to the like, really trivial example of the pink versus black thing?
Sheen
Sure.
Taimur
What we're saying that like, you know, even if there might be some truth to the pink versus black thing, by talking about it on a podcast and taking it sort of seriously, in inverted commas, I'm not sure if we took it seriously, but by sort of sincerely talking about it on a podcast that a few people listened to, were sort of perpetuating the stereotype when actually we should be sort of actively fighting against it or something. Is that why this is like, it might have been bad.
Sheen
So what do you think about this? Well, what do you think is your social role? Even if you only have two people who listen to your podcast, which is not your case. But what do you think? Where does it come into play for you?
Taimur
Yeah, that's a good question. I have a lot of trouble with this myself, to be honest, because like, I think there, you know, there is definitely a social, maybe quiet obligation, but I do feel that people with a platform have some some duty to affect positive change through that platform. Okay. But agai , like, I think it comes, you know, once again, this is another issue of like a sort of general generalization versus a specific instance, Right? like, on t e whole, we have a duty to affect positive change. I don't I think it's an extr mely high bar to say that, always, under all circumstances. These guys have to be peddling some kind of positive social change in every discussion they have, you know? I think that's a very high bar. I wouldn't hold anyone to that bar myself. And I'd hope people don't hold us to that bar. And so yes, I think, you know, we have a duty to affect positive change. Does that mean we always have to, you know, always be pushing some kind of agenda to change how people think about things or whatever? I don't think it means that.
Sheen
But do you agree with me that there are two things: the first one is, you know, having an agenda where you are pushing for active, positive change in society. And the second one is just not reinforcing like the negative things that already exists? And not, you know, taking part in it. Because I think that that demands less effort, in my opinion, anyway, the second one, and is just about, you know, it doesn't, it's not that much effort to steer away from things that you know, are not are a bit iffy. And you don't want to just talking about this, it's true, doesn't really harm a lot of people, you're not going to educate a lot of people. But if you do just steer away from it, even if it just one or two people that you're kind of making them feel better about themselves. That's good. And also, I think it's just with this whole thing about gender and race and stuff like that. It's good to not perpetuate it by just saying things that might actually not mean anything, but it's just the general, you know, trying to be good.
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. Because it sounds like a nice idea in principle of like, Oh, you know, your side of caution. You know, just play it safe if it's like a somewhat controversial topic or whatever. But I think it would be bad if everyone always thought that way, like I said, then no one would talk about anything remotely important in in the public sphere, because you don't play it safe. You don't you know, whatever, right? I think in our case, like, I think a lot of this comes down to, you know, how much do you trust your audience, you know? If you can trust your audience to take what you are saying, at face value. Interpret your words accurately and precisely as you were saying them, if you can trust 100% of the audience are going to, like, take what we're saying at face value, they're not going to, you know, interpret this in a directionally incorrect way. i.e. like take the opposite of what we're actually trying to say, you know, if you can trust an audience to sort of, yeah, trust, trust yourself, to be able to successfully communicate what you're trying to say to the audience, and trust the audience to like, you know, not intentionally misinterpret what you're saying. Then I think like last week's episode was absolutely fine. If for example you can't trust your audience to do that. And you know that, okay, if we talk about anything remotely related to gender, or race or whatever, people are literally going to take the opposite of what we're trying to say or like, you know, people are, you know, going to, you know, no matter what we say, like some people are going to interpret it in a certain way, then I think it's different, and I think there's more to think about. And to be honest, I think, like, I would hope that so far, you know, like, if some I would have hope that someone who's a regular listener of the podcast. And actually one of the people who tweeted at us last week of the episode saying that, like, this is why you come across as misogynistic. I think her point, her point was, actually look, I've listened to like all the episodes, I know you guys actually don't mean, x, y, and z. But this is probably how it comes across, kind of thing. And so I would hope that like people who've listened to multiple episodes of the podcast, would, yeah, would sort of, under generally understand the things that we're trying to say and generally view what we're trying to say in a charitable way. I don't know how true that is. I mean, I think that is actually probably true. I think the audience of this podcast is, you know, is broadly kind of aligned. You know, for example, after last week's episode, we got maybe three or four people engaging on Twitter, saying it came across as misogynistic. And out of the, I don't know how many reviews we've had, I don't know, like 5000 or 2000 reviews or something like that. Maybe like 5 to 10 of them have been positive reviews just saying that it's sometimes a bit misogynistic. So like, I don't know how, you know, 5 out of 2000 reviews, saying we're misogynistic compares to other podcasts. But I don't think that's a terrible ratio. And like, I think, I think on the whole, I do feel like, you know, we can sort of keep it real with the audience and not worry too much about things being miscommunicated. What do you think, Ali?
Ali
I wonder if there are two different issues here. So Sheen's point is, yes. Okay. Yeah. You know, you don't have to be pushing some some kind of social agenda in every episode, which I'm sure we're all agreed with. But your next point was that you still should ideally, avoid reinforcing negative stereotypes by virtue of the topics that you talked about.
Sheen
Um, yes. I'd say yes.
Ali
Okay. And so, one element of that is this idea of to what extent can you trust your audience to sort of not misconstrued things intentionally or unintentionally/to what extent can you trust yourself as the host, or as the guest of the podcast, to actually put your point across in the way that you mean. And I think this is something that I've been guilty of in the past where I would use deliberately or not deliberately, but like, not intentionally direct language, without adding nuance to it. Like knowing that when I'm talking to Taimur, he knows that I know the nuance behind all of the things. But when I'm speaking on a podcast, I used to have the assumption that well, surely everyone listening to this will appreciate that. Obviously, I know all of that. 100 nuanced points about this, and why this is problematic. But I'm saying this just to just to simplify the point. There's that aspect of it. But I think the other aspect of it is the broader general question of, should you, as someone with a platform, avoid topics where, you know, it could be potentially reinforcing something negative for you, you know, for example. To use a somewhat trivial example, if we had an episode where.. we did an episode several months ago, where we were talking about how to figure out whether you should buy the new iPhone or something like that, you know, a reasonable criticism of that would be that it promotes consumerism, and there are some people in the world if we were replaced you with someone else who had a podcast about anti consumerism, who would take real issue with the idea of peddling any kind of consumer consumerist narrative in the podcast. If we talk about the fact that Taimur flew to the Caribbean, using using carbon and stuff, there would be someone sitting in your place right now, who would say that, like, even mentioning the thought of flying somewhere anywhere in the world, the fact that you're contributing to global warming is bad. And therefore, you shouldn't even mention that on the podcast, to my mind that there seems to be a long list an endless list of potentially negative things that you could be talking about. And I would suggest, it's probably not reasonable to say that people with a platform or any TV show or any podcast should avoid topics, which some people might take issue with. But I feel like that's probably not your point. I'm probably..
Sheen
Oh no, I agree with you on that. But I think one thing that comes from t right, when you have an audience, online, or even whatever kind of audience hat you have, people will always disagree with you, there will always be omeone who will disagree with your point. And it doesn't mean that you should ot say what you feel or what you want to say. And I think I really like the way ou approached the Twitter comments, for example, about the last week episode, I aw that you guys, I don't know which one of you commented saying, you know, hat was the issue, you know, opening the dialogue about, okay, let's talk about his. If you don't agree with this, why do you not agree with this, maybe we can learn So if something you believe in and you think that you're right on this, then something from this, or we can convince you about our point. And I think this is a good way of dealing with like, sensitive topics where you think that what you're saying might be controversial, or you know where you're coming from, as you said, you know, you know the nuances about something, and it's just about communicating it. And if someone doesn't agree, I think it depends again, on the topic, but you can agree to disagree, but you can also just, you know, choose it's fine. And you can try and communicate your point to the other side. And if your battle kind of thing. they don't agree, then they don't agree. But I would not say that because of that you should not share how you feel about certain topics, or stay away from some topics, because they might be controversial.
Ali
Okay. So for example, one thing that I am, you know, that the topic that I'm very interested in is things like the psychology of relationships, and the psychology of dating, and how things like physical attractiveness and one's behavior comes across in that particular environment. I would love to have conversations about this more on the podcast with a fully sort of, you know, we're taking a step back, we're being dispassionate about it, we're trying to be very precise with our points, and trying to understand what the different points of view are. Would that be reasonable to do in your opinion? Or do you think that even having such a conversation like that which perpetuates so many negative stereotypes, that the conversation itself should be avoided?
Sheen
So again, we are very different people, I would not do that. I find that problematic. But that's something that you believe in that. And that's something that you think you can talk about, and you think there are some people who would resonate with that.
Taimur
Sorry, what do you find problematic?
Sheen
Well, it's just the whole thing about the physical attractiveness. And, you know, women should be a certain way, and men should look a certain way in order to be attractive to the general population. So that's just, you know, because that's what we were talking about, that leads to, you know, a lot of like, body negativity, and like all of that, and it's just not necessarily a conversation that I would want to be involved in. If that makes sense. And it's fine for you to talk about it. As long as you said, you explain where you're coming from, and why you're having this conversation. And why do you think this conversation is useful, then you can talk about it, but you should be prepared for the kind of, you know, reaction that you will get and how you will address that conversation that then comes after that.
Ali
Okay. So a few weeks ago, I made a video called How Much Money I Earned in 2020, about like the first 25 minutes of that hour long video explaining why I'm making this video and giving like 18 trigger warnings and stuff. And a lot of people said that "hey, I really appreciated the introduction." A couple of comments said "Dude, I wasted 20 minutes of my time in the in the introduction." But I think overall, given that they were it was a controversial, potentially sensitive issue. I think the sort of disclaimers. 20 minutes of disclaimers at the start was helpful for a lot of people. And that video, I feel would have done a lot worse or would have resulted in much more negative response had I not had 20 minutes worth of disclaimers. So it sounds like we're broadly agreed that if we are discussing topics like this, we treat them with a bit of a light hand rather than a heavy hand if you're like, "alright mate! wearing pink today versus black".
Sheen
And also, you know, with the YouTube thing, as you said, like people who benefit from it, are grateful, and they will engage more, and they will learn from it. And then people who find it boring it's not really, it's okay, they will still skip it or just watch it. But at least you're including more people by having that and explaining your point of view better.
Ali
I think one thing I totally disagree with is which was just like a minor thing you said, which is that ask yourself, is it useful to have this discussion? I think that it would also be too high a bar to set for ourselves for every discussion. We have to be useful in some way. I think interesting is enough of a bar.
Sheen
But what do you understand by useful?
Ali
Okay, so my definition of useful would be someone can take something away from this, which would then help them in whatever, in some some aspect of their life.
Sheen
So or they just learn something, right? That's it.
Ali
So I would count a documentary about, I don't know, Pompei to not be particularly useful, but to be interesting.
Sheen
Okay, fine. Well, English is not my first language; that's what I meant.
Ali
Okay, fair enough. I just wanted to confirm that for you.
Sheen
Yeah, no, that's what I meant, like, does it resonate with someone? Does someone take something away from it? Does someone enjoy it? -- that's useful for me.
Taimur
I find that somewhat paternalistic. And I'm not really a fan of that.
Sheen
You found it a bit what?
Taimur
Paternalistic. Yeah, that's right. I said it (laughter). Yeah. So I think like, I don't know how much it's our place to judge what's going to be useful for someone. You know, like, there are episodes that, you know, I think are complete, you know, completely not useful, which other people have found useful. Like, I don't think it's actually our place to think "hmm are we useful for someone?" I think it's more our place to sort of have a discussion we think is interesting. That's really the most we can do. If someone finds it useful, great. But like, I don't think we should set out thinking, you know, like Moses coming down for the mountain without like ten commandments of Not Overthinking.
Sheen
... Interesting rather than actually useful.
Taimur
Wait, sorry?
Sheen
That's what we just agreed on that it just needs to be interesting, rather than useful.
Taimur
Yeah. Interesting to us. Like, I think like trying to trying to sort of guess what the, what an audience might want.. I don't know.. I think it's a bit like, yeah, people can control what they listen to.
Sheen
But then why don't you just have interesting conversations with your brother? Why are you recording it and putting it online? Sorry?
Taimur
Why don't you just have interesting conversations with your brother like that, instead of recording it and putting it as a podcast online? There's a few reasons I think, you know, the conversations that I find interesting with my brother, I also find interesting to engage with other people about right? And the platform kind of lets you do that. There's an aspect of wanting to peddle my own worldview, like there are some things I believe and feel strongly about. And I would like to convince other people of those things. And so a platform kind of lets you do that as well. And then yeah, like if other people do, I'm not saying that I don't want other people to find it useful. And like, hopefully, people are getting some kind of value out of it. I'm just saying that it's not really our place to think too hard upfront about what exact value we want people to be getting out of the episodes. I think that's down to the person listening. Yeah, that was sort of my point.
Sheen
Yeah, I agree with you on that. I wasn't saying that you decide what they find useful out of it. But I'm just saying that. When you are deciding on a topic, it's fine if you think that it will be an interesting conversation. As long as you caveat it, and you explain where you're coming from, and be open to engage with the reaction that happens after.
Taimur
Yeah, I think caveating things is pretty good. There's a sort of writer I guess, who I'm a big fan of called Julia Galef. And I think she started to I don't know, if she actually started doing this, but a lot of people in the sort of rationality community, I guess, do this thing where, like, at the start of the, like, blog post, or article, whatever, they'll have a section called "here's what I'm not saying in this piece, and then five to 10 ways in which they think they can potentially be misinterpreted" and just getting ahead of those of the start, like "I'm not saying x, I'm not saying y." Now that's out of the way, let's go to the piece.
Ali
Yeah, I feel like that's the sort of thing that would be great to..
Sheen
You should do that.
Ali
Yeah. Like, at the intro of a podcast recorded after the fact. You can have any conversation you want, and then, when someone's editing it, it's like, yeah, ask Anges to edit the podcast and think, right, Anges, make a list of all the ways in which someone can misconstrue all the different things I'm saying, and then (..) them at the start, something along those lines. Let's go back to stuff stuff that we might disagree on. Because I feel like we've agreed on too many things at this point. So, we initially started with the idea of generalizations and whether one can make an accurate generalization to find is 51% of the population, which we decided, yes, we could. We then talked about, is it useful to do so? And we said, well, it kind of depends on what you use it for. Are you using it as like a broad statistical average to inform something where, where that's useful? Or are you over-fitting a statistical trend on to individual behavior? And I think now, if we can sort of that's like the abstract, the abstract thinking of it, if we concretize that a little bit and start, you know, in the context of last week's episode, had we been talking about something not related to gender and dating, we wouldn't have had any responses on Twitter about that being an issue. But it sounded like people took issue with the specific.. the specific nature of what I was -- I was getting at, which is, I want to be more attractive to women. Therefore, I should do x as a kind of general vibe. And I personally believe that there is that A, it is possible to that A, it is reasonable to have the goal that I want to be more attractive to women. B, that it is possible to use and B, that it's possible to use generalizations about a broad statistical average, in order to help partially inform my individual behavior. And I feel like you would probably take issue with some of that, if not all of it.
Sheen
No, okay. I agree that if you want to be more attractive, that's fine. You know, your choice, you do whatever you want. But I think the issue that people take in general, including me, is that when you're thinking about making yourself more attractive to the other gender, it's solely, at the moment anyway, focused on the external, the superficial, rather than, you know, what, everything else?
Taimur
Is it?
Sheen
That's what we talked about.
Taimur
That's what we talked about on the podcast. But again, we don't talk about everything all the time on the podcast.
Sheen
Okay, fine. But okay, even based on the podcast, the reaction that you got was because of that, right? Because that's the only thing..
Ali
I mean, if I was clearer that another way of, if I was clearer that I'm actually taking a six week online course, to become a better speaker, I've hired a coach to become a better storyteller, because I know being better at storytelling makes you improve your social skills. If I was clear that over the last sort of decade, I've read about between 10 and 20 books about how to be a more social person, and how this year in 2021, I am trying, I'm thinking of sort of getting a therapist to figure out how I can be more in touch with my emotions. None of those I think those sort of superficial things, they're all like, internal thingies, the goal for those is all because, as you know, part of a general journey of personal development, plus it's cool. But I can't lie that a big part of the goal for that is that, you know, I would like to a more attractive partner. And, you know, certainly part of that is, I feel, you know, putting on a bit more muscle. You know, one thing that you've been saying a lot, anytime I take my glasses off is "Oh my God Ali, you look so much better without your glasses."
Sheen
Don't tell people that.
Ali
In a video people were like "Yeah mate, take the glasses off, keep the beard" and like, Okay, cool. And you know, I've got appointment for contact lenses next week, I'm gonna get a barber to professionally grew my beard and teach me how to use a shaver and stuff. All of these are superficial things, which really, I could say "oh, but I'm doing it for me." But like, realistically, I'm doing it because you were the one who said that it would make me more attractive and the audience at large agreed with that. Although, you know, again, statistical averages, about 20% of people said I looked better with glasses. My point overall being that, you know, all of this is in pursuit of being more attractive, which I actually think drives a huge amount of human behavior, which is why I think it's such an interesting topic. And I think it is reasonable to, for example, do an Instagram poll for 30,000 people saying, "Which do you think is more attractive glasses or no glasses?" And actually, given that I don't typically care one way or another? I think it would be reasonable to use that to guide my behavior.
Sheen
Well, see, that's key, the fact that you don't care, right? And I know that it doesn't affect you, whether someone tells you "you've got a bit of a belly."
Ali
It really does. (laughter) The trick is to not let anyone see just how devastated you are. (laughter)
Sheen
Do you need a tissue? (laughter)
Ali
I think so.
Sheen
No, I think okay, on a serious level though, I think that your confidence and your self esteem are solid, and that.
Ali
Yeah, I read books about those as well, when I was 15. And I'm not kidding.
Sheen
Good, good. Anyway it worked for you. So that's why it's fine. I think the way you explain it is totally fine. And if you want to talk about this, that's absolutely great. Which is why it's fine, I think with you when it comes to that. But what I'm thinking about where I think it gets a little bit more problematic is for someone who struggles with self esteem issues, and then when they hear about, you know, oh, you need to be a bit more attractive in order to attract someone who you want to attract. And you know, then it can lead to some, you know, really like extreme, obviously. What are my extremes here that it can lead to eating disorder, it can lead to body negativity. And then if someone is changing themselves to attract a partner, and then they still don't attract a partner, then it leads to even worse things. So it is just a bit of, you know, thinking about that is just again, that's why you need to caveat this with, "oh, you know, I've got rock solid self esteem. I'm good." Like, it's okay. You can tell me which is why when you ask all your friends about what should I change about me. They can tell you because they know it's not going to offend you in any way and it's not going to make you overthink. Oh god like, I have been wearing glasses this whole time, like I could have looked better. But that's the thing. That's why I think it's fine to talk about it as long as you you take into account that you don't want other people to take it that way, you know, and you just want to caveat that, again.
Ali
Taimur? Any thoughts?
Taimur
It all just feels very paternalistic mate, it just really does like, I mean, okay, so I have two thoughts on that, like, yeah, suppose on the podcast, we're about to talk about how Ali can be more attractive to women by changing his appearance, okay. Now, yes, I suppose we could say, by the way, everyone, everyone's beautiful on the inside, you know, you're perfect just the way you are, you don't change anything about you. This is just about Ali, like, you know, don't apply this to your light, you know, we could say something like that. It sounds awfully patronizing and paternalistic to me, and I'm allergic to any, any kind of like, even like, having a small chance of being patronizing towards someone. Like, I really think it's the worst thing in the world. I don't know why. But I really do. So it seems very patronizing to kind of look on the audience in that way. And then the second thing is, like, if we're having this discussion on the podcast, like, does it really help? If we preface it with like, Oh, don't worry, you know, this is just us, you don't have to worry. Like, if I think about the stuff that I'm insecure about, if someone was like, Oh, don't worry about it, and then they go and have a discussion about it. Like, it's not gonna change whether or not I worry about it, right. Like..
Sheen
I'm not saying that you should tell people they're beautiful either way, that's not the caveat I'm talking about.
Taimur
What kind of caveat would you like?
Sheen
It's just a caveat that he thinks that, you know, superficial attraction is key. And this is why he's gonna focus on this first, and then move on. Because the, I can see the reaction that you'll get from people after that, which will be that all, like, it's not all about just physical attraction. There's a lot more that comes into play when you're looking for a partner, etc, etc, which I tell you all the time as well.
Ali
And what's my response to this usually?
Sheen
"Yeah it comes into play later. It's just attraction first." Right? That was you said.
Ali
And you can tackle things one at a time.
Sheen
Yeah. So that's the caveat I'm talking about. That he needs to say that so that he doesn't come across as just somebody who only cares about physical attraction.
Ali
I see. So you're saying the danger in talking about physical attractiveness, physical attractiveness as a way of finding a partner. The danger of doing that is that people will think that that is the only thing you care about.
Sheen
Yeah, that you're shallow.
Ali
Yeah. So similar to the thing of making a point about men aggression in prison, that people will think that that is the only thing that you're talking about. And unless you could make it clear to caveat that guys people ending up in prison is multifactorial, and I'm talking about one thing that may potentially explain some of the variation in group differences in people who end up in prison. That is a useful caveat to make to avoid people thinking that it's the only thing you're talking about.
Sheen
Yeah, that's my approach.
Taimur
Yeah, that doesn't sound like a terrible caveat. Because, yeah, I think this problem of like, this sort of selection bias problem of like, we're only going to talk about certain kinds of things on the podcast. And then if you assume that those things are the only things we actually care about, and the only things we ever talk about, then that's just a bit inaccurate. So yeah..
Ali
Or even in by extension, that those things are the only things that matter.
Taimur
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's not a terrible terrible caveat to have.
Ali
To your paternalism point though. I think this is an interesting thing. In Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind, he talks a lot about the difference between liberals and conservatives, again, broader general groups, 51%, etc, etc. And one of the things that he references is that liberals in general are more okay with paternalism than conservatives are, as long as it protects a oppressed kind of minority type group, because the sort of the care home foundation, which is like the major moral underpinning of liberal ideology like that. It's all about, it basically mostly about taking care of vulnerable people in society, you know, the paternalism thing, which is that actually individual choice and you know, I'll pull myself up by my own bootstraps, etc. That is a secondary consideration, and therefore, paternalism to serve a vulnerable group is completely reasonable for liberals. Whereas I feel like that's a place where that might be Taimur where you particularly struggle on that, you don't think paternalism should be.
Taimur
Oh, no, no, no. So I'm actually I'm fine with paternalism in many, in many instances. The way, the instance in which I'm absolutely not fine with it, is when it is paternalism that undermines another human being as someone who can reason and think for themselves. And this is like a big thing about the kids stuff. This is you know, epistemic injustice, like, assuming that someone is, you know, essentially stupid. And I think like, I think this falls into the realm of like, you know, paternalism about like whether someone can think for themselves and that's like, yeah, I really am not a fan of that at all. And I don't, you know, I try and stay very far away from it.
Ali
There is a domain in which I have had lots of conversations with friends in the past, sort of specially at university about this idea of paternalism. And that's in the context of relationships, namely casual, in the context of casual relationships. For example, you know, let's use cisgendered, heterosexual, etc, etc, just for the sake of simplified simplification. Guy meets girl, girl and guy set up a sort of casual friends with benefit type relationship. Further down the line, one party ends up developing feelings for the other party. And therefore, the paternalistic view was, would be that, let's say, I don't know, in that context, the party without the feelings has a duty of care towards the party with the feelings to break off the friends with benefits arrangement Because they know that oh, this is going to be bad for you in the long run. And I have been very like, Oh, this does not feel right. Because surely, there is a case of individual consent, and people can do what they want, and people know their own feelings. Whereas a lot of like, about half of my friends who I have discussed this with have said, yes, that may be the case. But the party without feelings has a moral duty to end that friends with benefits relationship in a paternalistic fashion. And they're okay with that. And I've always been like "Oh, I fully disagree." How do you feel about this, Sheen?
Sheen
That was very touchy. Okay. I agree that it's not entirely on the, what do you call it?
Ali
The party without feelings.
Sheen
The party without feelings, its not entirely...(laughter) yeah that's I wanted to be corrected of.
Ali
Precise terminology here..I'm not playing, dot dot dot (laughter).
Sheen
Yes, the party without feelings, it's not given that, especially if we knew that from the beginning, they were both very clear on what this is, where this is going, the party without feelings made their feelings clear, at the beginning, and the other party also knew what was happening, right? So then it is not this person's responsibility to kind of, then decide what's happening. But I do agree a little bit on like, just, you know, being kind a bit and just understanding that, you know, this person might now be getting feelings. So maybe just having a conversation about it. It's not your it's not about you know, getting rid of them, because to protect them, blah, blah, blah. But it's more about having a conversation about okay, I've been sensing this and this is what we agreed on. So how do you feel now? Do you I still stand where I stood. So maybe you should reassess your position in there.
Ali
Yeah, fair enough.
Taimur
Let me spice it up a bit. (laughter) So, okay, there's the party without feelings, there's a party with feelings. Suppose the party with feelings. Do you really have to? Okay, let's call them Person A and Person B. Okay, shorter than party with feelings. All right. But Person A and Person B enter into friends with benefits arrangement, Person A has no feelings for Person B outside of this arrangement. Person B has feelings for Person A, and is hoping that this will turn into a relationship, okay? Now, so far we've been talking about, okay, if Person A kind of suspects that that's maybe what's going on, what's their duty. And I think the paternalism comes from taking that sort of uncertainty, and then like, you know, assuming that this person doesn't know what they're doing, and they need someone to, like, tell them what to do, basically. And that's where potentially becomes a bit paternalistic. Now, if there was a Person C who has a mutual friend of Person A and Person B, and Person C knows with certainty that person B wants this to be more than just a friend with benefits arrangement. And Person B, then Person C then tells Person A, "Hey, I know, this is a friend with benefits thing. But Person B actually, you know, wants it to be more than that." And that's really their true goal here. And they will be hurt. If it doesn't pick up more than that, or whatever. Now that all uncertainty is removed, like Person A knows that Person B wants this to be more than a first benefits thing. Do you think that like changes, changes the duty? Because now I think Person A knows for sure, there's actually nothing paternalistic about being like, hey, look, this isn't gonna, this isn't what you think like, this isn't gonna happen. You're gonna think that there's nothing paternalistic about that. Because there's no uncertainty.
Ali
The paternalism I don't think comes from the uncertainty. It comes from the therefore I'm ending this relationship in an attempt to protect you from your own feelings.
Sheen
Yeah, I'm being the bigger person kind of thing.
Ali
As opposed to just having I think we're all agree that having a conversation about it is like a good to thing to do. But the question is beyond that point, let's say Person B says, "oh, no, no, it's fine, you know, I actually don't have feelings" or whatever, you know, as if, you know, would Person A have a moral duty to enter the arrangement anyway. It's a similar kind of concept to like this whole, you know, avoiding a topic to talk about because you're concerned that the other person might, you're in that context, you're being paternalistic, i.e. I'm going to be the bigger person and not talk about this thing removing the choice from the other person to essentially act, you know, treating them not as an individual, but as a, as a child, for example.
Taimur
Yeah, it's interesting.
Sheen
How did you get onto this?
Ali
Taim took issue with paternalism in the context of trigger warnings and caveats, etc. And I guess we agreed that caveats in the realm of, look, this is a complicated topic. And we are discussing one facet of it is a reasonable caveat to make, but to not publish a podcast episode, because we have some sort of paternalistic duty towards our listeners, because they can't take the fact that we're talking about men and women who in broad general terms, probably not, probably suboptimal.
Taimur
There's something I read as we've gone on for quite a while now, there's a final thing that I think is important to talk about, which is the language and the tone that is used. And I think a lot of what people I mean, certainly at least one person who reached out. It seems like they took issue with sort of the language and the tone. Okay. And so, let me I actually save some clips from the podcast, where I thought, okay, Ali, you said something which the tone or the language is potentially problematic. So let me take that
Ali
I think before you play these clips, yes, I agree. I was not in the out. slightest careful about my terminology, because the way that I was, yeah, I was just treating this as a conversation between friends rather than as a public domain podcast at the time.
Taimur
Classic. Okay, I'm just gonna play into the mic so people can hear these little clips. Hopefully, that won't come out too bad.
Ali
"And would kind of know me well enough to point out and be like, this is sort of feminine energy you're giving across. I'm not saying I fully buy all of this stuff. But it is stuff that I've been thinking. And most traditional advice on the dating front is that if you're a dude, you want to have masculine energy rather than feminine energy. Right?"
Taimur
"So I'm glad that we got this out of the way while it's still 2020. Because our resolution for 2021 was to not get any more comments about being misogynists."
Ali
"I don't think we're at risk of sounding misogynist here. This is female friends of mine actively, you know, in a good natured way, giving me advice on how to be more attractive to women and saying that ramping up masculine energy and dialing down feminine energy is the way forward, which I don't think is particularly controversial." I don't think anything is wrong with those things. I feel like I caveated quite a lot there. Most traditional dating advice about men talking about how to become more attractive to women in general says x.
Taimur
Sheen, did you have an issue with? I have like four or five of these clips, we're just gonna play them and see if any of us can spot any bad use of language or tone? Sheen, you okay with that?
Sheen
Yes.
Taimur
Okay. Next one,
Ali
"Very sort of me doing like a toothy kind of grin like smiling and showing my teeth and in general, the advice for guys, not just from this friend, but on the internet as well, because the internet's always right, is that if you're a guy, then showing your teeth and smiling widely is generally a sort of nice guy goofy kind of smile. Whereas smiling without showing your teeth is more like a sexy, mysterious kind of smile."
Taimur
"You've got this on Reddit?"
Ali
"I got it on wikiHow actually, so. (laughter) So all of this was my friend telling me that I needed to completely do a makeover of my Hinge profile. Because, you know, he was like, Look, if you're in a relationship, then at that, if you're in a long term relationship, then at that point, maybe they'll think it's cute that you're into Harry Potter. But, you know, if you're trying to get girls on Hinge then."
Taimur
Okay so, I think the reason I highlighted that was because you said the phrase if you're trying to get girls, get girls on Hinge, and I think that is it..
Ali
Reported speech from like a male friend of mine being like "Look, man, I'm going to tell it to you real."
Taimur
Fine. Yeah. Look again, it's reported speech, but let's just talk about the general language. It's reported in this instance, but like, I think using the term gets girls is has misogynistic undertones, probably.
Sheen
Agreed.
Ali
Yes.
Taimur
Okay, so that's probably something we shouldn't. It's probably the kind of thing we shouldn't say. Actually. Okay, yeah, let's let's play the next one.
Ali
"Which is all sorts of t-shirts I wear but you know, communicates feminine energy. And actually this friend who was having a chat with last night said, look Ali, mate, you've got to lose the pink t-shirts. They should go into a bin and never come out again.
Taimur
"Bloody hell, that!"
Ali
"I'm basically getting assaulted from all angles here."
Taimur
"Do you seek out all of this feedback? About your like how you come across to romantic prospects or do people volunteer this I mean the email with someone like volunteering the feedback with your friends do they? Do they think "man I've got to tell this guy". Or are you like asking your female friends like, you know, how can I get better?"
Ali
"I don't usually because normally female friends are unreliable in this department because obviously they're gonna say, Oh, just be yourself."
Taimur
Okay, so there's a few things to unpack there. It sounds like you were making a generalization about women.
Sheen
"Because female friends will just tell you to be yourself."
Ali
I said, yeah I was, I was saying in general, my 51% of my female friends, you know, would tell me to be myself rather than actually give me constructive criticism about how I can improve myself to be more attractive.
Taimur
While that may be true..
Ali
I'll give you this number is higher than 51%
Taimur
I think it is accurate, but I can, I like I think just the tone. I don't think it's like misogynistic or whatever. ButI can see why the tone.
Ali
I think we need to define misogynistic. What does misogynistic mean?
Sheen
Let's start with YouTube telling me what you understand with misogynistic.
Ali
I think it means women hating.
Sheen
Okay, that's it.
Ali
Yeah, that's the only definition I've ever come across.
Sheen
Why do you think, Taimur?
Taimur
What do you mean by women hating? How many people hate women?
Ali
I mean, like homophobia, hate, fear, slash hatred of homosexuals.
Sheen
This is not phobia. Anyway. Wait, we'll unpack him in a bit.
Taimur
I'd say probably misogyny is like, some kind of mindset wherein women are inferior to men, I suppose.
Sheen
So how do you think misogyny is different to sexism?
Taimur
Oh mate, I don't know.
Sheen
Okay, okay. So according to me..
Taimur
Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because I was about to say, by the way, I don't think most people are agreed on these terms.
Sheen
Yeah. According to me, my definition of misogyny is it's the implementation strategy of sexism. Sexism is, you know, we have all of these beliefs of like, women are inferior, and, you know, blah, blah, blah, all the stereotypes that are toxic about women. And then misogyny is kind of like, okay, yes, these things are true. And we have to defend these things. Which is why then any woman that conforms to this is fine. And anyone who challenges sexism, then who is not you know, what women should be according to what sexist rules are, then they are punished by misogyny or they are called out by misogyny. Do you understand that?
Ali
No.
Sheen
Okay,
Taimur
I don't think we actually, do we actually need to get into like these definitions. I think the meaningful definition is like, would a woman listening to this feel kind of bad.
Sheen
Yeah, but it's good to -- because I feel like for example, you just think is that it's the hatred of women, being misogynist.
Ali
So what's an example? Okay, what would you say are examples of misogyny that you've seen in my life? For example.
Sheen
I don't know about your life.
Ali
I mean, we've lived together for the last three months.
Taimur
Let's go into this.
Ali
I genuinely do think that I'm, I come up because if I come across as misogynistic, then clearly I need to change something about my behavior, because it is never intended to be misogynistic. And for example, in this podcast, I did not intend in the slightest to come across as misogynistic. The comment in question here is usually so when Taimur says, do your friends, do your female friends, such friends give you this feedback? Or do you have to actively ask for it? And I said, well, depends on the friend because most of my female friends would not actually tell me the truth, in an attempt to hurt my feelings, in an attempt to spare my feelings. So very few of them will actually be willing to give me the unfiltered truth about what's gonna make me more attractive. And therefore I, I talk about it to them. And it sounds like the issue you're taking with is me. I guess it you know, if I was talking about women in general, a lot of women in general don't give good feedback, because they care too much about feelings, that will be one thing. Whereas if it's my female friends are, are too nice to me. And therefore they won't give me feedback. Therefore, they're unreliable in that department, which was the phrase that I used. Which is me kind of making in my mind a playful comment about my female friends who I'm very close to and who are kind enough to not give me constructive criticism when asked for it. I don't think that's me being misogynistic, but call me old fashioned. I'm more than happy to further moderate my tone in the future even when talking about close female friends of mine, in an attempt to not make some women listening to the podcast feel as if I'm misogynizing women as a whole, as opposed to specifically talking about 51% of a handful of very, very close female friends of mine.
Sheen
Yeah, no, I don't think you are misogynistic. But I do think that, that statement comes across a bit iffy of like, my female friends would care about my feelings.
Taimur
Why is that iffy?
Sheen
It's just, I'm not saying it is. It comes across as iffy because your saying my female friends care about my feelings and the tone of saying it is that "ugh, as expected".
Ali
No, in fact is that was the tone
Sheen
There we go! Thank you! (laughter) I made some progress, God, there you go.
Taimur
Yeah. Like the tone is kind of iffy.
Ali
And so the expectation or rather the assumption that women would b more concerned about hurting my feelings than men. It's a stereotype, and it's a bad stereotype? I mean, it sounds like a pretty positive trait. I would love o be more concerned with people's feeling
Sheen
But it's not up to you to decide what should be a positive trait for women. Right? It's not that's you deciding that oh but it's good for women to be known for that
Taimur
He's saying as humans. It's not about women. He's saying it's a positive trait for human beings. And that's a fair thing to say.
Sheen
But he did say female friends, rather than saying..
Ali
Yes, because the specific context is my close female friends telling me how to be more attractive to women.
Taimur
I think we're all on the same page, the tone, the tone iffy. Obviously, you didn't mean any harm by it. It's not an accurate like, but that isn't. The tone is a bit iffy. Whether you think it's iffy enough to change. I don't know, personally, I don't think it's iffy enough to change. I think. I think like, there's a danger of, I think when I talk about this stuff, I'm too wary about how things going to be interpreted. And I tend to go into this mode of talking in a very, like, clinical and, you know.
Ali
Person with feelings, person without feelings.
Taimur
Right. Yeah, just like a very clinical and academic manner. Just to make sure like, I'm not, you know, gonna get misunderstood or anything. I don't think that's necessarily good. Anyway, we'll play the next clip. Oh, wait, sorry. "Friends, like, you know, how can I get better?"
Ali
"I don't usually because normally female friends are unreliable in this department. You know just be yourself. Oh, honey, you know, you. It's, it's really cute how you wear pink t shirts, and like (laughter) whereas with a subset of friends who are female friends who I know I can rely on to tell me he truth, they will actually be like, Look, man, like, yeah, like, you know, if here are friends of mine and yours who ever came to us and said, you know, how an I get better with a lady slash with the men? There are some who would give
Taimur
"Yeah, that makes sense." onest advice to and some who you wouldn't give honest advice to. And so I try to go for the ones who I know would give you honest advice."
Sheen
I think it's the ladies.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. So I think the reason I highlight this was you said the phrase "get better with the ladies".
Sheen
Or men. You said to the ladies or men.
Taimur
Yeah. Get better with ladies or men.
Ali
Okay, fine.
Sheen
You see the difference?
Ali
My tone of voice. So I assumed my tone of voice would have put air quotes in that.
Taimur
Yeah, that's what that's how I read that.
Sheen
I did not get that.
Taimur
Oh really, okay.
Ali
Get better with the ladies is me air quoting. I think.
Sheen
I did not hear it. I apologize.
Taimur
Okay. So like, without the air quotes, would using the term like "get better with the ladies", it's iffy for sure. You know,
Ali
No. Yeah, I think if it's, if it's without air quotes, it's obviously a ridiculous thing to say. And the only reason I would say it is with air quotes, because it's such a ridiculous thing to say, right? Yeah. Like in that context, find it might be iffy. But I don't know.
Sheen
It's hard to hear the air quotes, man. It's a podcast.
Taimur
I heard the air quotes, but I guess we need to be a bit more mindful that other people might not hear them. Alright, this is the final clip.
Ali
"Like, for example, transaction analysis as this sort of comes into social interaction?"
Taimur
"Yeah, I guess it does. Yeah."
Ali
"I feel like there's a lot more to be said on the social interaction front."
Taimur
"Yeah, for sure."
Ali
"Well, one thing that I would be keen on is actually exploring in a sort of what's in a dispassionate fashion, the less mainstream slash less politically correct texts around social interaction.
Taimur
"The scriptures."
Ali
"The scriptures, yeah."
Taimur
"Things like the game by Neil Strauss, or are we talking?"
Ali
"I was thinking more like more acceptable than that. The prince by Machiavelli. But also I was thinking things like The Game by Neil Strauss. And permutations of it that have been allegedly updated for 2020. I think that will be very interesting."
Taimur
Okay, I'm not sure why I highlighted that maybe accidentally highlighted the wrong bit. But that doesn't seem too terrible.
Sheen
No, nothing.
Taimur
And then I'll just read out some excerpts. I'll anonymize this but a DM that we got relating, I think to the language. Yeah, so this person suggested that we should reconsider the way we talk about this topic. He said "trying to get girls getting good with the ladies, your friend who's good with The Game. All of that sounds objectifying and uncomfortable. "
Ali
Agreed, it's all in air quote.
Taimur
Yeah. So I think maybe we need to make it clear that those things are on air quotes because I don't think either of us actually use those terms. Sincerely. And yeah, I think this person also took issue with the fact that we sort of talk about it as if it's a game. Yeah. So she said on the one hand, you guys always talk about this stuff as if it's some kind of game. And then on the other hand, you say that, you know, you're looking for a wife with lots of long term partner you can spend the rest of your life with. And they say, so are you actually trying to get lots of girls? Or are you searching for a partner you vibe with. The language you use seems inconsistent.
Ali
I mean, I feel like it's probably not the game issue itself, because we have a lot of framings on this podcast about how all of life is really a game. In fact, the podcast was about sincere versus seriously treating life as a game. So I think the game itself is probably not problematic, unless people are mapping it onto their pattern of like "Oh my god, I heard there was a pickup artist book called the game and oh, my god, these guys are awful." Which I don't think we can really legislate for particularly. It sounds like the issue is, like, yeah, we do talk about finding a wife. And yet we also talk about this idea of being more attractive to women. And I guess it's similar to what Sheen was saying is that finding a partner is multifactorial. Finding someone to have a one night stand with is less multifactorial, and more based on looks. And by virtue of the fact that we were talking more about looks in the last episode. To an extent, we also talked about behavior, things like being a bit more stoic and stuff. But by focusing on looks, we run the risk of people thinking that we are treating this as a uni factorial topic rather than a multifactorial one. Is that fair to say?
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's the problem. But yeah, I think these two ideas are at odds, you know, wanting to find a sort of long term partner and wanting to be more attractive to potential partners in general. Okay. I think they are very aligned.
Ali
Sheen and I were having a long conversation about this yesterday, where a big part of the disagreement seem to be on this very issue.
Taimur
Wait, what? Sheen, do you think those two ideas are at odds?
Sheen
Did I? No.
Ali
I think we were doing a lot of talking past each other where I was. You were saying that well, yes, changing the way you dress or changing the way you look might help you attract a partner in the short term, but it's not the way for a healthy, happy relationship.
Sheen
It's not the only, it's not the only thing that matters.
Ali
Yeah, and I was saying it correct. It's not the only thing that matters. But it's, you know, given that more than 51% of relationships these days have started on online apps, which are based almost entirely on looks, it's a reasonable starting point.
Sheen
Yes. But what Taimur is saying is more that you know, being attractive doesn't mean trying to work on yourself to attract a partner doesn't mean you're not looking for a long term partner. Doesn't mean you're just trying to get loads of girls.
Taimur
Like, if you if you're looking for a long term partner, probably the best strategy is also..(unclear)
Ali
To get, get loads of girls. In air quotes.
Taimur
Yes, I think this person is just uncomfortable with phrases, like "getting ladies". She said, "Please talk about women as people not as snacks."
Sheen
You talk about women or snacks?
Ali
I mean, if you're air-quoting "get girls", and it's like get a bag of crisps in that context, I guess it comes across as a snack. I don't know
Taimur
If she's a snack, what am I supposed to say?
Ali
Wow. (laughter)
Sheen
Wow. (laughter)
Taimur
To be clear, that was a joke. That was a joke based on the colloquial usage of the word Snack to mean a person who is attractive. Okay. That's what that was. Okay, and then finally.
Ali
I think there is a risk in this episode in sounding as if we are trivializing people issues with the podcast. I felt this a little bit right at the start when you were saying. "So, last week, we had loads of comments about how we were like, you know, sexist and stuff." Was sort of how it sounded. And I was thinking, someone's gonna take issue with the fact that you were sort of smiling shyly while you were saying that. But it's fine.
Taimur
Possibly, let me have to think about that.
Ali
I just meant it as a casual throwaway.
Taimur
Look, the thing is.
Ali
I think we do often make light out of things like we'll make a joke out of I don't know, kids being treated, not as people. You know, despite the fact that the overall aim of the podcast is for Taim to get people to treat kids more like people.
Taimur
I think you can keep things light while also taking them seriously. I mean, I do think we're thinking about these things seriously. I think at the start, I definitely railed against this particular mindset of like not listening to what's actually being said. And I think a lot of the criticism is that. And yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. I think, if people have an issue with something that we're not actually saying, I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to come out and say "look, listen to what we're actually saying." And then if you object to it, that's fine. I think like, you know, just because it's feedback or criticism doesn't mean you have to accept that its correct. You know, I think you probably have a bias towards sort of seeing your own blind spots. But if I think a particular angle of feedback or criticism is just not correct or not true, I think it's perfectly reasonable for us to I mean, sort of dismiss it. Obviously not like be disrespectful towards any individuals that have said that or dismiss any individuals. But like dismiss the broad class of feedback. I think that's absolutely fine. I don't think we need to like pussyfoot around this. Alright, that was maybe that was worse. (laughter) What?
Sheen
Wow.
Ali
Purely veterinary terminology there.
Sheen
Wow.
Taimur
Is that problematic?
Sheen
What do you think?
Taimur
I'm just googling it. No, dude, it's in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Ali
If it has the P word in it. It's always gonna be problematic.
Taimur
Act in a cautious or non committal way. Dude, this is like an actual word. I think it's because cat's walk very softly. How about that? Yeah, we can go into this.
Sheen
Yeah, I don't want to be part of this (laughter).
Ali
Taim was trying to make sure he's not gonna get canceled today. It's in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Sheen
I don't wan't to be part of this anymore.
Ali
Other root words in the Oxford English Dictionary as well Taimur? That makes it acceptable to say them.
Taimur
Just give me a second here. Ah, "pussyfoot, which means a delicate soft step comes from the imagery of a cat's careful tread. To pussyfoot is to proceed with caution, subtlety and delicacy. And it's used pejoratively. The term is American in origin, and dates to at least 1893." So actually, you guys should get your head out of the gutter. And what I said was perfectly fine. And people been saying it for quite a while. How about that?
Sheen
To be honest, I only heard the first half. I didn't hear the foot at the end. So
Taimur
All right, whatever. Anyway, I'm in the clear, is the conclusion of that.
Sheen
Let's see how people react to that.
Taimur
Yeah, so I think language is probably important. I think we should probably be a bit clearer about when we're using...
Ali
What? Sorry, please continue.
Taimur
Why did Sheen sigh at me?
Sheen
Not you at him, at him.
Taimur
Why did you sigh at Ali?
Sheen
He keeps dropping his pens, and I keep having to find him a new pen.
Taimur
Okay. Nice.
Ali
So yeah, throughout the episode, I've been spinning a pen on my hands, and about six of them are currently underneath the desk. So Sheen keeps on handing me more pens, my addiction of pens, that I dropped them, and then she sighs, sorry. I feel like you were making a good point there.
Taimur
Yeah, I think language is important, we should probably be a bit clearer when we're sort of using a term ironically, or in quotes. Rather than using term sincerely. I don't think we actually think about and talk about things as like getting girls and things like that. We may say these things sometimes, ironically, or whatever. But we should probably be clear about that. Yeah, I like to re-emphasize the point that I think something is lost when if you sort of read clinical about things all the time. Like, for example, I think the vast majority of women listening to last week's episode had no problem with it. I have confirmation from a female friend of mine who listened to it yesterday or the day before or something. And she literally said, like, I have no idea how that could be interpreted as misogynistic. So I think like, we don't overcorrect on this, you know, you don't want this to be yeah, just be like super dry all the time. Because you're having to use like, 10 words to describe something that could be described in one word to 99% of people, you know. So I think we should bear that in mind to be honest. Yeah, I agree.
Ali
This is always the case with like, with any sort of comments online is that the, you know, the subset of people who will reach out to comment about something is usually not representative of the broader population.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
But it's good that people who have strong feelings about the stuff that we're doing are getting in touch, because we'd much rather know that some people are feeling in that way. So we can talk about it and stuff. If you're a person who takes issue with the way that we talk about women or anything else that again, please definitely do get in touch. And, you know, we'd love to kind of talk about this stuff a little bit more.
Taimur
And please be specific about it. I think. Last week, the discussions on the sort of two or three conversations on Twitter was the first time I've actually had sort of some specific feedback about what was bad about what we said, or whatever. We can't really do anything with a generic review or email saying like "oh, that was misogynistic." So I think specific is good. And we're always totally down to get specific feedback about how we can improve. Sheen, anything to add to the discussion that we haven't touched on or like any other points you'd like to make?
Sheen
No, I think this was we've made some good progress today, I think, good. And I think it's good on you that you addressed the comments that you got on last week's episode. And it's good that you're open for conversation about these things. And I think we're all good.
Taimur
Thank you. I will give you your fee later on.
Ali
Should we end by plugging your podcast as well?
Sheen
Yeah, why not.
Ali
And your Instagram page too?
Sheen
Look at you remembering.
Ali
See? I'm a good listener.
Sheen
You are, okay. So firstly, the podcast is called Dream, Girl. So it's all about trying to, you know, share different journeys and different experiences of different women in different industries and doing very different things with their lives and just showing that women are now everywhere. And they are not singular paths about getting into any kind of career. And it's been very interesting. I've learned a lot from all of these wonderful women. So please do give it a listen. And the second one is my Instagram page, which is called the @thewoctribe. WOC, meaning women of color. Sorry?
Taimur
W-O-C, is how it's spelt?
Sheen
Yeah. So this is an online community, we're trying to create a platform to give women of color somewhere to you know, talk about all the things that they want to talk about, and also make new friends and just share their experiences. And also, generally to try and actually find practical ways of dealing with things that we're not happy with the way things are, for example. So yeah, this is on Instagram. So do follow us.
Taimur
Awesome. I will put links to Dream, Girl the podcast, and Sheen's Instagram in the show notes. Finally, I think a couple of things to mention. Last week, we decided to kick off our members community. And so we had a bunch of people who have registered to join the Not Overthinking members community We'll be actually setting that up today. So we had a bunch of people w o expressed interest in joining. And so if you're one of those, we will be sendi g you an email later today with some details of how to join, primarily t e WhatsApp group chat to start off with and then we'll see how it evolves fr m ther So thanks to everyone who signed up. And if you didn't sign up or can't afford it right now, don't worry, we do want to make this a broader thing that's more accessible. And so over the next few months, we'll be trying to figure out how to sustainably scale up the community that lets more people join without kind of reducing the quality. So stay tuned for that. Anything else that we need to discuss, Ali?
Ali
I guess we just wish everyone a very Happy New Year. Thank you for listening to the podcast and hope that you stick with us for another year.
Taimur
Awesome.
Ali
That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics, we'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com
Ali
If you've got thoughts but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well. Tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter please.