Reflections on 100 Episodes

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
29.Mar.2021

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing today?
Taimur
I'm doing all right. I was caught off guard this morning by the clocks. They moved forwards an hour. And I didn't know that. I ended up waking up at 11 o'clock, while just before 11 thinking, man, what the hell happened? Like, why did I sleep so much? I then maybe told me that the clocks went forwards. So that was a surprise. But I'm over it. How about you?
Ali
[...] because I woke up at 9:30. And I woke up feeling surprisingly refreshed. And then I only realized like an hour later that oh, the clocks have gone forward. So that means I lost out on an hour of sleep.
Taimur
Oh, nice.
Ali
So you wake up without an alarm? Is that your style?
Taimur
No, I had an alarm set for 9. And then I turned it off and went back to bed. That's my style. I don't know what your style is.
Ali
No fair play.
Taimur
How are you?
Ali
I'm good. I am good. I've had I had a bit of a roller coaster this last hour or so. Because you know how I've been thinking of going back into medicine in a part time capacity. I made a video about it. You clearly haven't seen the video.
Taimur
Alright, [...] video about how you're moving to the US.
Ali
That was a long time ago. So leave me alone. But I'm getting back to medicine and a part time capacity.
Taimur
You're definitely doing it?
Ali
Yeah, like I signed up for the locum bank at my local hospital locum meaning just like extra shifts that you can take on one of you like really, and the paperwork has been just taking ages to organize. Because like one of the medical staffing people is on maternity leave and the other one was off sick and like, it's basically been like three months since I've sent the paperwork in. First off to be organized. But we have a WhatsApp group, which I've been in since like 2018 when I first started working at the hospital, where like loads of doctors are in this WhatsApp group and the medical staffing people run the whatsapp group and they just post whenever they need urgent locum cover. And so I saw a message this morning saying we're looking for a junior emergency department cover tonight, you know, the rates escalated i.e., we will pay your more money for doing it. You know, we're absolutely desperate. That was the vibe of the message. So I messaged the person being like, hey, my paperwork is still being processed. But if you can manage to do it in the next, like 12 hours, I'm happy to do the shift. And then she was like, Oh my god, this is so good. I'm gonna speak to the medical director, I'm going to kind of get this authorized, etc, etc, etc. And so I was like, I was gearing myself up emotionally to do a shift from 10pm till 8am tonight, and then I got an email from her a few minutes later, like about about half an hour later being like, right, I've spoken to the people, we can't let you do the shift until the final paperwork and criminal records check and stuff actually cleared, whereas initially what she implied was we could just get authorization from above and it would be legit. So it's good in a way like I kind of felt that sense of like, oh, this feels scary because I haven't been in hospital for the last eight months. I was like, you know what, when you feel the fear you do it anyway. And so I did it and it's not my fault it didn't work out so I feel good. I feel like I did my bit [...] NHS and now it's the system's fault for the paperwork.
Taimur
You've done your bit it's like when you when you phone someone up and then they didn't pick up and you're like yes, I did my bit, they know it, I know it. We both know it.
Ali
What's even worse is when they bring back and then you don't pick up and [...]
Taimur
Oh god. El Classico.
Ali
So that's been pretty good. And yesterday morning, I actually fulfilled a teenage dream of mine. I bought myself an Alienware gaming PC.
Taimur
Why?
Ali
So you know okay, so for those unfamiliar, Alienware is like a brand that's now owned by Dell, but like they've been around for years and like, they make very kind of gamer type desktop PCs, with like all of the you know, the powerful processors and the graphics but the Alienware aesthetic is very much like colorful red lights everywhere and just like looks very kind of teenage gamer. And when I was young, me and my friends at school, we used to go to the computer room and spec out like an Alienware desktop PC to be like and salivate over and be like, oh my god one day, when I make money online, I'm going to buy this 5000 pounds PC oh my God, it's so cool. You can add these lights to it. So that was my whole vibe. And you know when I used to, when I used to kind of make money from like either birthdays or my part time job, I would fantasize about one day getting an Alienware PC. And I know that for you. The fantasy used to be how many monitors can I buy with this money? One day I'm gonna have three monitors on my desk. And I was thinking of building a gaming PC because I've been getting back into World of Warcraft recently and it's sick. And I'm speaking to a friend of mine and apparently the Nvidia 3080 graphics cards are really out of stock everywhere. And so I looked at the Alien website. I was like, oh, this is Actually reasonable it looks pretty sick. And it saves me from just having to actually buy the parts and plug them in myself. So I order to get Alienware gaming PC, and it's arriving in a month's time.
Taimur
A month? Bloody hell.
Ali
I know.
Taimur
How did it feel? Did it feel as magical as 12 year old, you would have thought?
Ali
I'm not gonna lie. I'm actually pretty excited about it. I was like more excited about this than I was about like the Tesla, for example. I just don't routinely get excited by purchases. But this is genuinely been exciting.
Taimur
Why? Like your current thing, i.e., World of Warcraft set up, the graphics are probably decent, right?
Ali
Oh, no, I'm playing on the lowest graphic settings. I was doing a five man dungeon with my guild the other day. And there's this plate that there was this like section where you have to walk through this pipe, essentially. And there's this like thing that sprays oil at intervals. And you have to kind of walk through it without getting hit by the oil. And both. And like twice, I walked in, I got hit by the oil and I fell off and I had to run all the way through wasted five minutes running all the way back. Second time there were like bright, you know, Stellar that's like my username. Please don't get hit by the oil. I walk in, I get hit by the oil. And I'm like, where the hell is this oil. And then a third time around. I was like, right guys describe to me what this oil looks like. They were like, it's literally a huge mass block of oil that's like spraying on your screen right now. I was like, oh, my graphics settings are so low. And I can't see, like, I literally could not see the particles of oil. Because I was playing with the lowest graphics settings. And then I turned them up to medium. I was like Oh, okay. I know what you mean now. Like, obviously, I should have avoided that. It's like literally black oil
Taimur
That sounds funny. spraying across the whole screen. But I can't see that on the low graphics. So partly, you know, it'd be nice to play while on a higher graphics, but also, because I've been doing streaming a lot on Twitch and like streaming and gaming from the Mac Mini at the same time. The very kind of choppy, laggy kind of streaming experience And, you know, because I care about the fans. I thought, you know, I need an Alienware desktop gaming PC.
Ali
Yeah, that's what's been going on in my unemployed life. What's going on with Causal these days? You guys just closed another round, and you're hiring more people or something like that?
Taimur
Yeah, we're now we have someone joining on the business side of things. So sort of working closely with me this week, on like, Thursday or something, then we'll be like six people full time. Yeah, I think we're off to the races, we just need to start selling this thing. I think we know who we're trying to sell to think the product is ready. Yeah, we just grind it out and start making some money.
Ali
So when you say someone is being hired onto the business side, what does that mean?
Taimur
I mean, that title, will be like head of business operations or something.
Ali
Okay. But I want to know what it actually mean.
Taimur
It means kind of doing in the same way that I do a little bit of everything. They'll kind of be taking a lot of that stuff off my plate. And so that means like, can we do a bunch of like cold outreach to companies that we try to sell to. And so there's some stuff to do around that, when we're actually selling someone, we need to like, show them a demo with the products, then if they're interested, we do like a pilot project with them, where we sort of help them build some Causal models, they can get a flavor of what it's like. And so actually, you'd like managing and running these pilot projects, takes a decent amount of manpower, to kind of plan the sessions, and so on. And so this person will kind of be managing the pilot side of things as well. And then there's just a bunch of other tasks that currently Lucas or I are doing, for example, legal stuff, finance stuff, just like general day to day operations of a company that this felt it would be doing as well. So yeah, it's basically like, a bit of everything.
Ali
Nice. I feel like I should hire a head of business operations. That sounds pretty sweet to be able to offload like finance and stuff.
Taimur
I mean, look, the finance and legal stuff is not huge for a company like ours, pretty small. It's pretty simple. Yeah, I think I'm particularly looking forward to this guy joining because he actually used to be one of our customers. So he really gets the product. He has been a buyer of the product before. So he gets you know, why someone might buy it, how you might want to sell this thing. And so I think he is just like the perfect profile for this kind of thing just has like a ton of context about what we're trying to do and kind of deeply understands and cares about it. So I think it'll be nice to be able to offload a bunch of mental sort of headspace onto him and sort of trust that kind of, he'll do a great job basically.
Ali
Yeah, it's quite nice when you can do that. It's like I have the feeling with like Angus and Elizabeth for the Part Time Youtuber Academy. It's like, I just know that it's just so nice to not have to think about it 24/7. And offloaded that worrying about it to Angus. He then thinks about it 24/7. Very liberating feeling. So thank you, Angus for that.
Taimur
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think it would be nice to offload some of this operational stuff into someone else who could focus on it. So I can think about other things 24/7.
Ali
Like what's happening with David Dobrik these days?
Taimur
Yeah. Did you hear about that?
Ali
Mate, I've been following up with like, at the edge of my seat every time there's a new like H3 podcast episode sort of deconstructing situation.
Taimur
Oh are you watching the like analysis of [...] as well?
Ali
It's quite interesting. Like there was one. There was like the one hour long interview with Jeff Wittek. And I just find myself watching the whole thing, obviously a double [...]
Taimur
Wait, who interviewed Jeff?
Ali
Ethan from that H3 podcast.
Taimur
Okay, I don't know.
Ali
I haven't heard about this, like Jeff, like, famously went on this podcast, where Ethan and Tasha, I think or whatever name is. Trish. That's one. They like deconstructed him and basically wrecked him on a live on Eric. There was a live podcast recording. And they were and he was like complaining about the article that was written by Business Insider, and he was [...]
Taimur
[...] Apology video down. Who?
Ali
Who? Jeff?
Taimur
Yeah, cuz he made one apology video. And then he took it down. And then he posted another one saying I'm sorry for the first one.
Ali
Yeah. So in the first one, he said that, look, this isn't what it looks like, Trish and the author of this article are trying to smear people and this is just not legit. And I had nothing to do with it. That sort of thing. And then when he was on this live podcast with these two people that really knew what was going on. He kind of folded, folded like a cheap. What's the phrase? Folded like a cheap suit.
Taimur
Is that a phrase?
Ali
Yeah, it's folded like a cheap suit. Turns out, he hadn't actually read the article. They were like, well, have you actually read the article? He was like, Yeah, I've read bits and pieces. They were like, so you haven't read the whole article? And he was like, well, no, I, you know, I don't want to do the paywall. And they were like right. So this article that you're complaining about, that you made a video about? You haven't actually read the article, and you're attacking the author of the article. Okay, fine. It was a bit of a train wreck, but kind of interesting to watch. It's weird, like I don't normally engage in sort of keeping track of youtuber drama. But I guess because I've been watching David for such a long time. Mostly thanks to your recommendation. I have to add, it's like, level of interest.
Taimur
I don't know. I think partly, I don't want to like engage too much with making with you know. I think people are making quite a big spectacle of what is actually like a really serious issue. And it's always become like a reality TV show that people are watching just to like, get the dirt and get the gossip and get the drama. When like, I think it's quite a serious issue. And I don't know, I just I feel weird about like, indulging too much in Yeah, in kind of, I guess the sort of [...] of it, right?
Ali
Yeah, fair play. I don't feel bad about it at all. So I've been on myself quite a bit in the [...]
Taimur
Alright, so I thought this week. Do you know, do you know what episode number were last week's episode was? It was 100.
Ali
Was it?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Oh, great. So we had Joey on episode 100.
Taimur
Yeah. So I thought given that, I think we were vaguely trying to do like a reflection episode for Episode 100. But then we kind of lost track. So for Episode 101, what we're going to do is a little reflection on the podcast so far. Before that, I need to get my lip balm. Just give me a sec. All right. Reflect.
Ali
Reflect? Hmm. Yeah. You know, when we started this, when did we start this? We started this like this time two years ago. I think, like march of 2019 was when we started this.
Taimur
Yeah, I remember we were in France. And we recorded a couple of episodes while we were on family holiday.
Ali
Yeah. And yeah, I think for the first few episodes, it was quite good. And it was easy. And then we go to a point that oh, crap, we have to figure out what to talk about each week. I think there was a period then where I was a bit like, it's just too much effort trying to figure out what to decide what to talk about each week. Especially because this was kind of pre pandemic, where I'd be coming home for the weekend to record the podcast and not have to go back to work on the Monday. And we often end up recording at like, 11pm at night, and then I'd be like, super sleep deprived for work the next day. Yeah, like, all of that led to me being quite like, quite like annoyed that the podcast was a thing, just because of the you know, the logistical issues associated with it. But recently since we've been recording remotely, it's actually great. I just got to sit at home. Have a bit of a chat with you. I think we've been less like, less high pressure about like, oh, we need to have a topic this week. And we've been more okay with just kind of shooting the proverbial shit as it were.
Taimur
Yeah. I think that's interesting and worth digging into, like, because I think I used to get sort of worried before every episode of like, this is going to be the episode we have nothing to talk about this gonna be the beginning of the end of something. But I think we kind of got over that. Maybe like 50 episodes ago or something? And yeah, how is there always something to talk about?
Ali
I guess, like sometimes there really isn't, but we just kind of have a bit of a chat. And there's always gonna be something right. Like, I think before, I think this has a lot of parallels with the YouTube videos, where I think the parallel with the YouTube videos is that with a YouTube video, you kind of need to have a title. And you need to have a thumbnail, and the title and thumbnail is like ridiculously important. And that really sells the value of the video. You can't just make a video being like, let's talk. You can't. [...] And so for me, like topic selection for YouTube is like a really big thing. Just because title and thumbnail is so important. I think for podcasts, you can literally just have an episode, where it's like, you know what, let's have a chat. And we'll figure out a title later. And the title is, in a way, a lot less important. I think that's partly why it doesn't feel like we need a topic. But also it's not really a it's not really a themed podcast, if it was like the Smart Passive Income podcast, or like the Indie Hackers podcast, or like the Video Creators podcast, it's like that has a very specific value proposition. And so each episode needs to have a specific value proposition, whereas this is just, I don't know, just listen to us have a chat for the most part, and occasionally might be something that you find interesting. So I think that framing of it also makes it a lot easier to just hit record and talk. And, you know, occasionally I get emails from people who want to start podcasts, and they have this thing of like, you know, how will I keep on doing this. And my advice to them is always like A, don't do an interview podcast, because then it's reliant on you on getting guests every week, and find someone who is as, find someone that you're like friends with, or like a family member, or someone who will show up for this week after week, because it just makes it infinitely easier to keep the consistency going. And there are those stats that like most podcasts don't go beyond episode three. And of the ones that do most don't go beyond Episode 20. The fact that you go beyond Episode 20 means that your podcast is at the top X percent of podcasts that actually survive.
Taimur
Yeah, I'm not too worried about sort of running out of content anymore. I think that's, I think that's fine. I think another sort of thing that's really helped is just I think it's fairly low friction at this point. You know, whenever people you know, whatever, like friends or whatever asked about the podcast, I think a lot of people assume that it must, it must be a lot of work like, man, you must have to spend so much time setting up and editing and uploading. And it's, yeah, I mean, I think it's just super low friction, where we've got like, the mics sort of permanently set up in my room, like cameras, like permanently set up in a corner of my room. It doesn't really I don't use it for anything else these days, it doesn't move. And so recording the podcast is just like, sitting down, turning your computer on. And then you're done. I mean, I guess we used to do we used to be editing ourselves in the early days, which was I mean, very light editing, it took what, like 15 minutes or something to click a couple of buttons to remove the pauses, and, like compress the thing and upload it. I guess, you know, I guess does the editing now, I don't know how much work that is. I imagine it's about maybe presumptuous.
Ali
I think the fact that it's a video thing, like and because we're turning it into clips, means the workload is fairly, fairly high. I think it takes like half a day on a Monday to do it. Or sometimes on a Sunday if Angus chooses to do over the weekend. So you know Riverside, what we're using to record, this also has this new like magic wand feature where it just creates a video recording for you that you can just talk on YouTube, if you want. So maybe there's some like, I think the more we've done this, the less friction it's become. I think that's also partly because the tools have evolved, like there was no Riverside or Zencastr, or even like Zoom wasn't really a thing in 2019. And so when we would record remotely, it would be like, we'd be on a FaceTime call, and we'd sort of [...]
Taimur
[...] FaceTime.
Ali
Really weird kind of janky set up. But now it's literally riverside.fm one click and you go, and you're sorted. You know, full disclosure, I'm an investor, is that what they say?
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's what people say.
Ali
Yeah. So I don't know, I think more people should start podcasts. Like the the issue of the podcast is that it's basically impossible for it to grow. And the only way podcasts grow is by the medium of video. Like weirdly, like there's almost no point in starting a audio podcast.
Taimur
I mean, that's not true. That's just obviously not true. I mean, most podcasts are audio only.
Ali
I mean, yeah. But like if someone listened to this, which is decide, you know what, I want to start a podcast, it would be a bad idea for it to be audio only given the lack of shareability of audio only podcast and they're super abundance of them. Like it's a very easy way to I feel like in the at least amongst everyone I know who does podcasting and takes it seriously. It's table stakes at this point to have a video podcast.
Taimur
I agree. But I think the key there is takes it seriously. I think a lot of you know.
Ali
Oh sure, if you wanna do something as a hobby, then do what you want.
Taimur
Yeah, I think that's the position most people are in, I think most people are looking to start podcasts as like a serious money making activity. And I think I'd like the video just as a lot of overhead, you know, it does add friction. And if the bar is like, Oh, well, it's pointless to stop podcasts unless you also film it and put it on YouTube, then, you know.
Ali
Okay, sure. Yeah, it's pointless to start a podcast with the intent of taking it seriously. Unless you're gonna film it and put it on YouTube. Or unless you're already a big name, unless you're someone like Chamath Palihapitiya, whatever his name is, you know, if you have a lot of other unfair advantages stacked in your favor, then sure you can get away with audio only. But I think the way the world is going, the way your podcast grows, is through video these days.
Taimur
Yeah, there's just no way to distribute audio generally.
Ali
I think that's an interesting one, there is this difference of like, taking it seriously versus not, like, we often run into this issue with our Part Time Youtuber Academy, which is just wrapped up at second cohort, where, you know, the course is designed for people who want to take YouTube seriously. It's not designed for people who want to do it as a hobby. And so, but even so a lot of people sign up who want to do it as a hobby, and don't really have an intention to, quote, take it seriously. And it's hard to get that balance between like, what advice do you give? Because if someone wants to start YouTube as a hobby, the advice is, okay, do whatever you like, like, what are you here for? Like why do you care? If it's just a hobby, then why do you care about growth and stuff like that. But then there's also like, well, it's a hobby, but I also do care about growth. But it's not like I care so much about growth that I'm willing to sacrifice a, b, and c, and it's kind of struggling, these kind of trade offs versus here are the things you could do. And the way that I think about this, and I explained on the course, it's like a metaphor of stacking a deck. And so you've got this deck of cards. And if you're, if you're playing a card game, it's all kind of probabilistic, like there are no guarantees of success, whatever that means. But there are ways to stack the deck in your favor. And you can stack the deck in terms of time, or you can stack the deck in terms of money, or you can stack the deck in terms of systems. And the extent to which you want to stack the deck in terms of time and money. That sort of just depends on what your goals are for YouTube. If you want to grow to 100,000 subscribers in a year or a million subscribers in a year, there are things you have to do like you can't just half ass it and expect it to do okay. I got an email from someone the other day saying that, hey, you know, so you talk about starting YouTube. If I were to do YouTube for one hour a day for the next two years, can I make a full time living from it? My answer was like, no, obviously not. That's like seven hours a week, how on earth can you have the audacity to expect a full time living to come of that in two years time, that's just never gonna happen. It's just not a thing. And so if that person has goals for YouTube, involving I want to make full time living in two years then there are certain things that have to happen to stack the deck in your favor. Whereas if you're like, oh, I'm just kind of giving a go see what happens then sure. Do what you like, I think I think it's similar for podcasts for drawing, painting, any creative thing, any business thing as well. And speaking to someone yesterday, who is starting a SAT Test Prep Business. Naturally, I was discouraging her from doing this because I felt it would be a total waste of time. But her thing was that, yeah, no, I can see that this is probably not going to be market viable. But it will help me it will help teach me to code and help me learn skills about how to start start a business. I was like, okay, yeah, you know, that's completely fair. Starting a test prep company is a very reasonable way to learn how to code and to learn how to run a business. So, yeah, it really just comes down to what are your goals for this thing. I think partly because like, our goals for this podcast have been very modest, which is why it feels so chill to record a podcast episode. Whereas if we had goals that, you know, this podcast needs to make a full time living or something like that, then we'd be doing things probably with a bit more pressure a bit more a bit differently.
Taimur
Really, I think I wish we'd started doing the videos a lot sooner. When we really started that? Like three months ago, something?
Ali
We had been recording them for some time before then.
Taimur
But it was kind of shitty [...] You know? Yeah, I wish we'd started that sooner. But, I mean, yeah, what would we do differently? If we were like taking this more seriously, I can't, [...] we'll be doing that much differently. We'd be a bit more serious about like.
Ali
I think in terms of topic generation, and like titles, we would have been taken taking things more seriously, we would have done a video a lot sooner, because like, we knew it was a thing to do video, we would have done clips a lot sooner. We knew that was a thing. Like, it's a lot of the stuff that we did later on, because, you know, we haven't had the manpower to do it. But if we were taking it seriously from beginning, we would have done it sooner, we would have done the whole kind of figuring out target audience value proposition. Like we did this in a very kind of half assed fashion. But you know what, let's just slap something together and see what happens.
Taimur
This target audience, the value proposition thing. I'm skeptical of this for a podcast like ours, you know, like, you know, even if you narrow down some target audience like how does that help you? We're not running LinkedIn ads over here.
Ali
It's helpful when you're creating any kind of content or when you're trying to serve anyone to know, who are the people you're serving. Like, if, for example, this podcast were aimed at, I don't know, 13 year old kids living in the UK, it would be a different sort of podcast. It's like, if it's a podcast aimed at 45 year olds living in the US, it's a different kind of podcast. So we we actually do have a target audience in mind, usually for us. Yeah, it's just like implicit, rather than explicitly stated. And it's usually kind of people like you and me, who are interested in the same kind of stuff that you and me are interested in.
Taimur
I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm trying to target those people. It's like, look, I think for some podcasts that are about more concrete, new narrow topics or whatever. Yes, it's fine. Like the My First Million Podcast, you know, they probably intentionally targeted at people, you know, aged 20, to, you know, 20 to 40, who are kind of into tech or whatever, right? If you think about something like Conan's podcast, I mean, maybe they're deliberately targeting it at some people behind the scenes. But I imagine Conan's podcast is just like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna, like do this podcast, we're gonna have these actors and stuff on and we're gonna have a chat. And, you know, imagine they have a pretty good idea of who watches it. Like, they probably know, okay, there's not many 80 year olds watching, you know, watching Conan on TV or listen to the podcast, but everything like I think for a general podcast, like something like Conan's, or like ours, I just didn't see how this target audience thing is relevant. Like I can see it for your YouTube life. You're making study videos, Yes, fine. You have obviously the target audience in mind. If you're making productivity videos, again, but for this, I really don't see it.
Ali
Like So my point is that if we were taking the podcast quote, more seriously, we would sit down and actually think about this that okay, who is our, you know, who is the sort of person who will scream about the podcast from the rooftops? Like, if we had to boil it down to a single avatar. Then what that person look like? Like, for example, with my YouTube channel, yeah, there's a lot of people who who watch it, but like, if I had to boil it down to a single avatar, who would scream it from the rooftops, you know, I call that avatar, Medic Mo. This is like a sort of 20 year old medical student, probably in London, probably interested in tech probably wants to learn to read more probably pretty bad at managing his time, probably cares about like how to study but not so much to the point that he cares about ranking first, and is here, probably, you know, enjoys video gaming once a while probably wants improve social skills probably enjoys board games, rather than going to the club. These sorts of things. Like it sounds like a sort of BSC kind of exercise. But actually just taking the time to think about this and deciding, okay, who is this person? What's their vibe? Even though, even if it might not change things immediately, like it wouldn't change the things that we talked about. Just having that in mind A, helps with topic generation, because you can think, okay, what are the sorts of things sorts of things this person would be interested in. And it also helps just targeting things at the appropriate level of the appropriate level of like, abstraction or like complicatedness. Like you explaining maths concepts. If our target audience avatar was like someone who's a math student, you would assume more knowledge than you would otherwise. But we know that our target target audience is not people under 13, for example, therefore, you don't have to explain basic math, you can, you can assume a certain level. So in a way, we are doing it implicitly, but most people would say, and I would agree that if you take the time to define it explicitly, it just helps you think about this in a more kind of a more systematic way. which is often a good thing.
Taimur
I find it hard to imagine what we might be doing differently if we came up with this persona. Just give me one tangible thing we might do differently. If we came up with a..
Ali
We haven't come up with a persona, therefore it's hard to like the point is in coming up with the way we're approaching this podcast is like we'll sit down and we'll figure it out as we go along. That's fine, that's a totally reasonable way to do things. But if we were taking it more seriously, we will sit down and figure out okay, who are the people watching this, let's look at the stats. And let's see where they're where they're coming from. Let's see if there's anything we can glean from the audience at large, we would probably do be doing things like you know, marketing companies do these, like surveys where, you know, what sort of topic would you like discussed on the podcast? Or when it comes to, when it comes to socializing with friends? What's your biggest challenge or what's something you often think about what keeps you up at night, doing some level of market research around that would I imagine give us some ideas for topics, but we just never done that beyond our kind of Not Overthinking Slack group, we just never really done that. And if you're taking for example, the YouTube channel says channel seriously, it's the sort of thing you would do.
Taimur
I see. I think it also depends on where you are on the spectrum of like, pure art/self expression to like, you know, pure. I don't know what you feel pandering, you know, right?
Ali
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But even like that and defining it upfront, or defining it, defining it at some point is helpful.
Taimur
Yeah, potentially. Fine, I'm still skeptical. But whatever. Have you had any real life repercussions of the podcast? I guess the podcast is much smaller than audience than your YouTube. So I imagine any real life repercussions would have already come from the YouTube.
Ali
They've been a couple of times where I've met, who runs people on the streets and they say, rather than I watch your videos, they say I listen to a podcast. So that was nice.
Taimur
Yeah, I've heard that a few times. They haven't followed up with oh, your brothers really cool. Yeah, I haven't had that one.
Ali
You have a fair bit of like, because I guess this podcast is the most public thing that you do. So what's happened like for you being a podcaster celebrity? Yeah, people slide into the DMS becaus they've heard you on the pod.
Taimur
Yeah, I get a lot of dm slides. But most of them, it's sort of not very actionable. I think the podcast audience is fairly International. And so if it's a DM slide from someone across the world, the other side of the world, then what are you going to do about it? If it's a DM slide from someone you knew in the geographical vicinity, that I have met up with people occasionally, like I went on a coffee date last week with a podcast listener dm slide. It was nice. And I get it. I think just getting like unsolicited messages in general, even if it's not a DM side, but just a general like message or whatever. I think that's an interesting thing. It's particularly interesting when people like really open up about really personal stuff, just like an email to you or like in an Instagram dm. Yeah, that's quite cool. That i's quite cool. I think getting I think getting recognized on the streets and stuff is really overrated. I think previously, you know, you might, you might think that oh man we would be so cool if like, you get recognized on the streets and people come up to you and stuff like that. It's okay. Like, it's I think it's I think it's neutral. I think like, it's, yeah, it's nice that like people care and stuff, obviously. But it's also weird to be perceived by other people, you know, do you know what I mean?
Ali
Weird to be perceived by other people. What do you mean? Like, it's weird that they have the same image of you and will, in a way pedestal as you almost or what?
Taimur
It's whether they have an image of you that you're not really in control of, and you have not really played any active role in. You know, I still find that strange.
Ali
I mean, the getting recognized on the street thing, I think, as far as like, it's kind of cool in a way, but it's also often I feel, I feel a bit awkward in those situations where, like, the thing I enjoy is having a kind of long conversation with someone. And so if it's a coffee meetup, like I do when it's not locked down, my weekly coffee meetups in Cambridge, and those are great because we're sitting in a coffee shop and chat for like, you know, anywhere from 1 to 6 hours. And that's just fun. Especially when there's more like more than one person and then the, you know, the the grip becomes just more engaging when there's more than one person. So that's really cool. But if it's like, oh, hey, I watched videos or hey, I listen to your podcasts really good. It's like, Oh, thanks. Cool. Nice to meet you. That sort of thing. Especially if like, I'm in the middle of something or I'm with other people, there's only so much you can be like, how did you discover you know, let's have a chat. Well, my friends are waiting. Oh, you know, should I introduce you to everyone in my friend group. Oh, you know, this is this is a Katherine has Lucio This is like Marchesa. Where does that interaction go from there? So I think it's been good, like, podcast plus YouTube channel, in that the coffee meetups are great. But the random people coming up to you on the street is, it's kind of cool, but it doesn't really I don't think it adds a particular value to my life and probably not. I don't know, maybe it would to this. I suspect not. But I think we should definitely do more like it would it would actually be quite fun to do like a podcast listeners meet up in London or something. Yeah, for sure. Stuff finishes. Like, you know, we're gonna book like a Nando's or table for 20, who want to book on Eventbrite or something. Here's the link. Open it up to our members community in the first instance. And then the podcast listeners as a whole. How's our membership thing going? Wait, wait. Before we talk about that. One thing I wanted to ask you about, like, how has your so when we started the podcast, no one really knew who you were on the internet beyond like, Twitter to an extent. And so you wouldn't have got that many like Instagram DMs of random people like, or emails from random people like asking for stuff or saying that you're amazing, etc, etc. And over time, as the podcast has become more popular, you would have gotten more of those. So how is your attitude towards them changed over time?
Taimur
What are you trying to get me to say here?
Ali
I'm really curious. I want to understand the diminishing returns from your perspective.
Taimur
Okay. Yeah, look, so there's definitely diminishing returns. I think the first few times, it's like, whoa, this is so cool, like, random person on the internet, you know, has like listened to hours of the podcast. And, you know, they really like it. And this is really cool. I think, I think the thing, the thing to understand is that I don't like to be praised. And a lot of these outreaches, this sort of reaching out to sort of share that they'd like to podcast. And then there's typically some kind of praise involved. And I'm not really into that. And so I think I don't feel I don't feel much when I read some messages that I get. But sometimes I do feel something like, you know, when we read reviews, for example, with a lot of reviews, right? Like, I just, I didn't really feel anything, but occasionally someone will touch on something that I think is really, really cool, or really good, or that I that I want people to touch on. And that and then I'll feel something. Maybe let me go through some. Let me go through some reviews. Okay, the praise that I do like is when I'm called funny, and we've talked about this before, I think it's a different category of praise. It's a group project. And so when when I get messages saying that I'm funny, that feels good. Just give me a sec. I think messages that say things like, you know, the podcast has made me think more about like, x y, z, I think I feel something with those, I think messages that say things like, you know, me and my friends, like listen to the podcast, and we like talk about it and stuff. I think I feel something from those. So I think I feel something when A, I am convinced that there has been some kind of impact. And B, it's the kind of impact that I personally value. Now, when people say something like, well, you know, if there's a review or an email saying something like, this is so insightful. I learned so much. That goes in one way or the other. I'm not, I'm not at all convinced that they're getting anything from it. I think and you know, if there's messages around like, yeah, I'm like, I think I'm maybe more productive or something. I just don't buy it, you know. So I think if the message is aligned with what I personally think is valuable, and if it's like convincing.
Ali
So if the message says that this podcast has helped me connect better with my fellow man [...] This podcast has made me more productive. You'd be like, Oh, God.
Taimur
Fairplay. Yeah. Like what? Okay, I also think that for some of the diminishing returns come from the fact that I think people, you know, if you're sort of consuming content from someone, typically, if that someone is like, older than you, then I think there is a tendency to, yeah, I think if you're like a teenager, and you're watching YouTube videos, or listening to a podcast, from someone who is like, you know, one stage of life ahead of you, so like, maybe a few years older, maybe they're at university and you're at school, or they've graduated in your university or whatever, I think there's a tendency to kind of almost seek out role models or something and turn people into role models, in a sense. And I think, you know, in a lot of the messages, I think it's that kind of dynamic, where it is, you know, someone at school or university sort of one stage of life earlier than you and I are. And I think in those instances, it feels like a, it feels like a very general like the I don't think we're doing anything differentiated in those instances. I think like, you know, any anyone who is, you know, 3 to 6 years older than this person who filmed himself on a YouTube video or on podcast, they would probably, I don't know, maybe ascribe it more value than it should be. Do you know what I mean?
Ali
Like, I'm often surprised when, I'm often very surprised when people say they learned something from podcast, because especially when it's the episodes where you and I just having a chat, if we're like reading our Agnes Callard's book then okay, you know, it would be reasonable that you'd learn something from it. But if it's the you and I are having a chat episodes, which is most of them, and people say they've learned something from them. I wonder to what extent I occasionally wonder this for my youtube channel as well, like, what's the distribution of people younger than us versus people older than us who feel like they've actually learned something from a podcast episode? And I think disproportionately it's people younger than us. Who will, like we're just kind of chatting and kind of thinking out loud and it might come across to someone who is not thinking very critically about what we're saying that oh, these guys know what they're talking about. Yeah, that sounds legit. Cool. Yeah. And just sort of a tendency to agree with what's being said. Although, I don't think this is a particularly young person way of looking at the world. Like, I often find myself doing this when I'm reading books now. Just like, I'm kind of thinking that sort of on one hand, I'm reading the book. And on the other hand, I've got this routine running in my head of like, okay, have they constructed this? What's their argument here. And I normally just don't think like that. It's only since I've started writing a book that I now start thinking in a more like, what's actually being said here, like, do I actually agree with it? Like, how have they phrased this and like this? Or otherwise be like, Cool. Cool. Cool. Yep. [...] The fact that it's in a book, I take it at face value. And I think if I were to be watching a YouTube video from someone older than me, talking about, like, some skill that I think that they are legit in, I would take it at face value as well.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah, that's basically what I was trying to get at where..
Ali
Agreeing by default.
Taimur
Agreeing by default, and like, viewing us as some kind of authority just because we're a bit older. Yeah.
Ali
Or like on the internet.
Taimur
Yeah. And I feel like that I feel like a lot of that probably goes on. And yeah, I don't know. Yeah, this is not to, like, I don't want this to come across as like, patronizing towards audience members who are younger than us. Because I think everyone does it, I think it's like a really natural thing to do. And what my point is, basically, that when I think that's what's going on, then it's like, okay, you know, I don't really feel good about that. Because I don't feel like I'm actually doing anything there. I feel like I, you know,
Ali
Do you feel it's because a lot of the stuff we talked about are in areas. So, for example, when I get a message from someone saying that your videos about study tips changed my study life around, and I used to be a C student, and now I'm an A student, that actually feels pretty good, because I feel like, okay, you know, there was no original thinking in these study videos, like, I was literally just, you know, presenting scientific research in like an accessible format on YouTube. But the fact that it's made a difference in this person's life is like, quite nice. But I think that's a very specific type of I am presenting myself as an authority in the space. And if you listen to my advice, which is actually the advice of lots of scientists and stuff, and your grades improve, and that's, kind of cool. But that's not really the vibe we have in the podcast. I feel like if someone says, you know, I really learned a lot about kids, you probably feel better about that. Because this is something that you care about, that you feel more of an authority and than, like, the average person on the street who does not really think about kids that as much as you do. Equally, imagine if someone listens to like, you've played the Consistency episode, Episode Two, or whatever it was to friends. And they've said, oh, this has actually helped me and made me start a blog and that sort of thing. Imagine that little bit as well.
Taimur
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that feels great. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's when, yeah, if like, someone engages with, like, the kids stuff, or engages with one of my, you know, one of my what I would consider to be original theories on life. It's always really nice for when someone specifically has engaged with that, because I feel like if, if I get a message that they've been engaged deeply with, like one of these things that I really care about, then I think there's much less chance of it being a generic structural relationship of like, I'm just like, you know, some slightly older person on the internet, who happens to just, you know, record himself, and therefore, people will people happen to listen to me and take take me seriously for some reason, I think. Yeah, I think that is probably the bulk of the diminishing returns, where a lot of the messages I feel like if I if I were replaced with someone else who's roughly my age or something, that this person would probably lap up, whatever they're saying, is saying as well. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't care about that. Maybe I'm being like really egotistical here that I, you know, I need to be some kind of special snowflake that's providing a truly differentiated and unique value that no one else can provide. Maybe that's not a good thing.
Ali
I don't know, I think maybe you're over indexing on the age thing as well. Like, I think for a lot of people, they actually don't, they don't think or care about how old someone is, like people who don't know, I suspect that the fact that you have the fact that you are approximately 25 years old is fairly irrelevant to 95% of the audience. And I suspect that 90% of the audience won't want to even cocked that about what your ages before.
Taimur
Okay, yeah, Yeah, I think it's more of a bracket thing like anyone from like 18 to 30. Or anyone up to the age of 30 might plausibly see someone, someone who who's my demographic as being a potential authority on things. And the fact that, you know, we are, you know, I'm on to podcasts makes them, you know, by just by default sort of thing, you know, take me seriously on things.
Ali
Yeah I guess so. But I think it's also like, the danger to not like, people have agency like, if the stuff you're saying doesn't vibe with them, they'll leave a one star review saying, I don't know, two rich boys talking or whatever, and then not listen to the podcast again. Whereas the people who are listening or not listening, because they think you and I are authorities on anything they listen, because presumably, they get some kind of value out of the stuff that we talked about. And yeah, I think like, on the age thing, I'm quite sensitive to the age thing, because I thought it was like quite a big deal when writing my book that like, why would anyone want to listen to what a 26 year old has to say about like life advice? And everyone's been like, yeah, but like, no one cares. No one knows or cares how old the author of a book is, like, you know, no one knows that James Clear is like 33. It's just like, not a thing that anyone would even think about. He could be like, 21. For all anyone cares. The fact is that it's a good book. Yeah, I'm sure when you see him on a video, you know, he looks like an adult, he doesn't look like some 12 year old kid, therefore, he not naturally has some authority. But for the most part, people who read Atomic Habits, and the 3 million copies it sold is not because they've seen a photo of James Clear, it's because the the ideas in the book are interesting. And people share the ideas. I'm also particularly surprised when I find that there are people older than me who watch my YouTube channel and get value from it. I was like, okay, that's kind of nice, just because my default assumption is that only people younger than me will look up to me as, as any kind of authority and think my stuff is worth anything because of that age situation. The fact that people older are also getting value from it makes me think, oh, maybe there is actually value here. And it's not, you know, maybe the fact that I'm older than the person watching the videos for the most part isn't really a factor that plays into it. I think maybe what's going on here is that if it's a conversation where you and I just having a chat and shooting the proverbial shit, if someone then says, oh, that was insightful, I learned a lot from that conversation. Maybe it feels like oh, I mean, maybe there's there's a sense of, well, we were just kind of shooting the shit. Like, there must be something else going on for you to think that was worthwhile, rather than the fact that was actually worthwhile.
Taimur
No, I don't think that I don't have any qualms about shooting the shit, shooting the shit episodes, I think a lot of good stuff comes out. Because apart from that, I think there's a lot of insight in the shooting the shit. So I don't find it. I'm not skeptical when someone claims to find value in the shooting the shit episodes. Actually, here's another thing that I think contributes to diminishing returns. I think, a big part of why people okay, let me speak for myself first. You know, I'm a fan of the All In podcast with Chamath and Jason and David David Sacks and David Friedberg, right. Big fan of podcast. Everyone loves this podcast. It's just so good, right? Now, I listen to every episode. And I don't think I don't think I've learned anything that I could recall from this podcast. I'm pretty. I know why listen to the episodes, I listen to the episodes purely for the vibes. It's four guys who are really close mates, bantering around. Yeah, sure, they're talking about tag they're talking about politics are talking about current affairs. I don't get what they're talking about. It's four dudes, who are just vibing and bantering around, and they know each other really, really well. And it's good vibes. And it's like, it's nice to just listen in on that in the same way that, you know, I think I've said this before about David Dobrik's vlogs it's just vibes in a can. You know, it's canned vibes, or you just watch this thing for four minutes and you just, like, soak in the vibes. And I think, I suspect that is a big part of why most people like this podcast. And I think it is a easy trap to fall into to think that oh, yeah. I've learned something from this podcast or whatever, or there's some insights or whatever, when actually, it's just like, raw entertainment. And mate, one [...] is fine. Like, I think, I think like, as I've said before, I think, you know, comedy is the only worthwhile, worthwhile thing to do in life. Yeah, if someone if I yeah, if I get a message of like, man, it's just like great vibes. I just listen to the vibes. This is raw entertainment. I'll be like, hell yeah. Love it. You know, I feel good about that. But I think, yeah, I'm just, I'm just skeptical when yeah, I feel like that's most of what's going on. And most people are not aware of that. And they are maybe deceiving themselves, or whatever. That there is something else going on.
Ali
It's like me playing World of Warcraft for the vibes and pretending it's for my hand eye coordination.
Taimur
Right. Yeah, sure. What do you think of that? And what I'm worried about, look, I'll be honest. I'm worried about how I'm coming across the outlook, it probably comes across that like Taimur was just basically saying, like a big fuck you to the audience. And he's like, you know, stripping them of their agency and assuming their intentions and assuming that, yeah, that whatever. As I've mentioned on previous episodes about other topics, I am speaking at a very low resolution here, I'm speaking in terms of like large structural effects that I think go on. I'm not speaking about any particular individual saying that this is what's going on. I'm just saying these are large structural effects. Similar to I mean, we talked about this on the episode with Joey, right, similar to saying that either you should wear a black t shirt, when you go on a date, you're talking about some very, like low resolution structural thing that you think is a contributing factor to something. You're not saying that like, the person I went on a date with last week, you know, only likes me because of my black t-shirt. So, yeah, just want to do some hedging there.
Ali
Nice. Yeah, that's good hedging whats adding that in. So we started off this conversation talking about diminishing returns.
Taimur
Oh, yeah, I've talked about diminishing returns for me, what are they for you? And I appreciate that. If it were the case for either of us that actually, we, you know, we thought absolutely nothing. Whatever we read any of these messages. It's not something we'd say on the podcast.
Ali
So yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, for me, I kind of lump comments about my YouTube channel and comments about the podcast in sort of the same category of comments from the internet. And given there that there are like, 1000 a day of those, it's very hard to feel something for everyone. And for the most part, I feel absolutely nothing for the vast majority of these comments. Yeah. It is like the ones that comment on specific things that, as you said, are the ones that kind of go through the noise. So for example, if someone says, I'm funny, I would take that as like the biggest compliment. Just because it happens so rarely. If someone says that, oh, those biceps are looking good, I often take that I often take that as like, oh yeah, you know this, because this is literally something I'm working towards. If someone says, I really liked the way you talk, I quite I quite like that, because I'm like, oh, that's kind of sweet. If it's a comment around something very specific, like I, you know, I did a video the other day talking about like my toxic relationship of productivity hashtag clickbait title. There were quite a few comments from other YouTubers who commented on that saying that, oh, wow, this is this exactly the stuff I was feeling. And he really articulated what I was thinking. And that kind of stuff feels good. But often like, I find myself doing that thing, when I'm on the toilet where I'll look through my 99 plus Instagram dm notifications look, like look like look like and just sort of taken what the message is saying. If it's like a long wall of text, I'll like do a thing where I'm like, okay, because now you can see if they've got like three followers and three following, then, you know, chances are that they're not active on Instagram, I can probably discount most of what they're saying. And I'll have a quick glance through it to see okay, anything interesting here. No. Okay, move on, move on, move on. Occasionally, there is something interesting, maybe one every 30 messages, where if like, as especially if it's, for example, someone who's gotten into medical school, and saying thank you man, I'd reply to that be like, oh, this is amazing. You know, this is kind of cool. If it's comments about the study stuff, I reply being like, ph, that's cool. Thanks. But yeah, for the most part, it is like a flick off. Like, it's just like, in a way it feels. I often feel kind of bad about it, especially because, like an instant Instagram dm, that is not a reply to a story. It's like something or someone's gone out of their way to do. It's taken them some level of time and effort to do it. Especially if it's like a long ass email. And we get like 50 plus long ass emails each day, where people have gone out of their time to really articulate for two pages, what problem in life they've got, they're just like, okay, cool, cool. Yeah, this is way too much to deal with ignore, rather than an even attempting to reply to that would take up half an hour of my time.
Taimur
The tragedy is that the long thoughtful messages are the hardest to reply, and then the least likely to actually get a reply.
Ali
Yeah. It's like what's your keyboard? I've got a snippet for that. I can reply, like literally, like, two milliseconds on while I'm on the toilet. But if it's too long for for one, where the question is not entirely clear, I'll be like, Oh, I don't know. So I'm kind of rambling. You know, just wanted to get your thoughts on the above. What thoughts on the above Would you like me to share It's like actually impossible.
Taimur
Yeah, I think Instagram have also missed a trick here. Because when a message is in the 99 plus requests tab, it takes bloody four taps to actually respond to it. Uou have to click once to accept the message. And then it does some whatever and you have to like wait like half a second or a second for it to like put it into your general tab, and then it like switches to that. And then you tap so like entered into the textbox. Then you type your message. Then you press send, like it takes so many clicks to respond to a single message in the requests folder or Instagram DMs. Whereas if it was, like, you know, like the YouTube, I don't know what the [...] app or something where you can see like all the recent comments, new videos and stuff that is really good because you just see this list of comments, you can literally like double tap one, two, like you can like just go through and you know, if it's a sort of comment, just saying I love the video or whatever, you can just like click like, like I like. And so you can actually respond to all of these people. Whereas with Instagram, they just make it so hard. Like, I could, I could feasibly just go through and like all these Instagram, your messages or whatever, and then the person knows I read it, they know like, I liked it or whatever, it'll just take too long, because Instagram has like five walls up before you can actually do that.
Ali
And then as soon as you accept a request, and then it's in your general tab, which means that the filtering process is no longer.
Taimur
Now this person has unfettered access to your inbox.
Ali
There's no way to reply to them within the request thing. Or you can double tap that message because you know, yeah, it's a real problem Instagram. That's kind of like Twitter, like it's very, very easy to engage with people on Twitter. You know, drop them a cheeky like, check mentions occasionally. Anyway, my vegan jackfruit biryanis has arrived already, so we should probably wrap this up.
Taimur
There was one thing I wanted to mention, which is a really cool aspect of having a following, which is that you can poll people, I think polls are so underused, I did a poll on Instagram and on Twitter yesterday, asking people whether they felt respected by adults, appropriately respected by adults when they were a kid. And on Instagram, two thirds of people said they mostly did not feel appropriately respected by adults. I got like, a ton of DMs kind of people sharing their stories and stuff. These are like really personal, intimate things. And that's just so cool. It's so cool to be able to just make a frickin Instagram story. And then like, yeah, get all the data and like, get all these anecdotes. Yeah, it's just like, it's unbelievable.? Why don't you do more polls?
Ali
It's on the cards.
Taimur
What do you mean it's on the cards?
Ali
It's on the cards when it comes to like book stuff.
Taimur
Why don't you just do it randomly when you're thinking about something?
Ali
I mean, I often do it. But yeah, it's definitely in the cards with the book stuff in particular, because I think I was very much overweighting kind of a scientific study. And then my writing coach was like, look, people only do scientific studies because they haven't got an audience to ask. And so you have to do an ethics committee applications or create a questionnaire and then recruit like 1000 students from the general public. But he was like, you can literally do that. But the time it will take with the type of a few clicks on Instagram is the one [...] And I was reading this book, I'm reading this book called Bullshit Jobs, which is all about like meaningless jobs and stuff. And most of the stuff in that book is this guy wrote an article about it in 2013. And then hundreds, like 1000s of people emailed him with stories about their BS jobs. And it's just so entertaining hearing real life stories. And it's not like, you know, filtered through the lens of like a scientific study where someone has transcribed an interview. It's literally an email being like, Oh, my God, I read your article, it resonated so much. This is how bullshit my job is. It's frickin hilarious. I love it. I think that I really should do more of this kind of polling stuff. One thing that would be nice if it would be nice if it's like the balance between friction for the end user versus friction for me. Like if I do a poll on Instagram or health, or if I ask a question, it's such an absolute nightmare going through the results. If I do like assumptions or a Q&A, I literally have to go through scroll through an Instagram screenshot, adjust the screenshot save the photo, repeat, if there was a way to export a CSV, that would be game changing. Maybe someone should make this someone should say, you should be able to log in with Instagram, it looks through your story replies, and it just exports the text as a Google Sheet or something or as a Causal model, that would be.
Taimur
You can actually export all of your Instagram data as a JSON file. And then you can probably just go through that JSON and like, really figure out.
Ali
Even if I put like a question on Instagram, and people reply to it.
Taimur
I don't know what. Yeah, I think I imagine every every like objects in this JSON thing will have a timestamp. As I imagine, you can just find all the replies that you got after a certain time stamp. And then you'll have those in a structured format. And you can almost guarantee that these are replies to your story or whatever.
Ali
Yeah, interesting.
Taimur
A final thing I wanted to just mention before we end the episode, the highlight of my week this week was going flying.
Ali
Oh, how was that?
Taimur
It was sick. It was so cool. This friend of mine has been into flying for the past 10 years or something. And he has his own plane at a local aerodrome I think it's called and so we just like rocked up. And I thought it's gonna be like one of those things where, you know, there's there's a bunch of red tape, you're gonna have to go through some health and safety bullshit. They're gonna have to like kick you out in some kind of a kit or something. There's gonna be like an hour of bullshit before you actually get in the damn plane. There wasn't, just like park the car in the car park and walk off to the plane took off the cover and like got inside. And he like explained how it all works and stuff like that. And then once we were actually in the air, this was like, this is crazy, I'd never felt sort of, it have been so long since I felt any kind of thrill or adrenalin. But basically, you can do this thing where if you go like really sharply upwards, that I mean, that just feels like a roller coaster just like going really sharply upwards. And you kind of feel the force of that. And so that that itself is terrifying. And I just say, I think that was the first that was the first time in a long time that I had a sort of just sort of uncontrollably like screamed as a response. Like I yeah, just like completely involuntary response that I think, yeah, very, very few things actually make you do that. And then you can do this thing where if you then descend at the same, roughly the same sort of acceleration as gravity, then you're sort of you sort of feel this sort of zero g kind of thing, you sort of feel this sort of weightless thing where like, if you're holding your phone in your hand, the phone will just kind of start floating. And you're just like self-floating, this is how zero gravity flights work, right? You can pay a bunch of people to take you up on a plane. And they basically do this thing where they go up really high. I mean, not really high, but then you kind of go down
Ali
Accelerate upwards with the same rate.
Taimur
Yeah, you will you accelerate upwards using to get to a point and then you accelerate downwards with the same acceleration as gravity, and then you feel weightless.
Ali
Accelerate downwards with the same acceleration of gravity.
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
How does that work? Surely it's accelerate upwards. Well, the gravity is pointing you down.
Taimur
No, if you're accelerating upwards, you'll just feel like the G-force of being like, rammed into your seat because.
Ali
Okay. I got it. If you're accelerating downwards, it's as if you're in freefall.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Ali
Okay, fine. So we'll does that feel like?
Taimur
It's just so cool. It's so cool. It's like, yeah, and then I actually like, sort of flew the plane, like, took the joystick and like, flew around. Yeah, apparently, once you're up there, there's no much that can go wrong. Like, even if, like, ram the joystick all the way to the side, like nothing. Nothing's gonna happen. Like, it's all. It's all good. It was just really cool.
Ali
So does your friend owns the plane? Or does he rent it?
Taimur
No, he owns the plane. Probably, he takes it to Austria fairly often. And yeah, probably, if you own a plane, you can just like show up and fly your plane to anywhere in Europe, basically. And as long as you have some way to land, it's fine. And so what, apparently, when you're going to Austria in your own plane, once you've taken off, then you just kind of leave on autopilot for it takes like four hours or something. And then you could just like, recline your seat and watch Netflix for four hours.
Ali
No way. That's ridiculous.
Taimur
It's like a self driving car.
Ali
And you can just do that you can just so I could I could learn to fly. I could just get a plane and just like fly to Austria whenever I want?
Taimur
Yeah, literally.
Ali
That's ridiculous. That's gonna be a life hack that very few people have explored. I think there are cost limitations to this life hack. Yes. But yeah. How much is the plane like that cost?
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
How much does a plane like that cost?
Taimur
I think sort of planes of sort of hobby or hobby kind of planes, you know, range from like, I don't know 40k to I don't know like millions.
Ali
So 40k is just sort of low end of that's quite expensive.
Taimur
I think so I think 40k is like a really, really basic, really low end plane that could fit two people. And then you need sort of like 40 hours of flying lessons, which are like 150-200 pounds an hour or something. And then you need to pay, you need to pay rent to wherever you whatever runway you stall the thing at, which is a couple of 100 pounds a month. The fuel isn't that bad. The fuel is like, not very expensive.
Ali
Let's have flying lessons. That'd be so fun.
Taimur
Yeah, I was thinking of getting into this a couple of years ago. Yeah, I think went once when, in 2017, when my Bitcoin did really well, so I was like, alright, I'm gonna stop like, I think it run to it. But I think like, I think it's, it's more doable if you like, if you'd like co-own the plane with some friends, you know, like, you don't need your own plane just for you. Right? Like, if you and four mates or something co-own the plane, and you kind of spread the cost of the plane and the rent and all that kind of stuff. It's actually pretty cool.
Ali
Nice. Okay, I'm gonna ask, ask if you can buy a plane as a business expense. Okay, this is interesting. Great stuff. Do you want to wrap things up with a review?
Taimur
Yeah, let's do it. tTis is a five star review from hackrover in the Czech Republic. They say This is the only podcast I have not stopped listening to, despite not really being into this sort of thing. I get easily irritated just because someone's voice doesn't see my preference, or simply because English is my second language. And my attention span is very short. However, I'm happy to report that both of you are amazing. And I can only imagine what it would be like to have chats with you as friends, smiley face. Keep up the great work. O
Ali
Oh, that's very sweet.
Taimur
It's a nice review. Thank you for that. Thanks, everyone for listening to this reflective, fairly self indulgent episode of the podcast. We'll see you next time.
Ali
That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well. Tweet or dm us @noverthinking on Twitter. Please.