The Parent, The Adult and The Child - A Discussion of Transactional Analysis

Taimur Abdaal
 
Ali Abdaal
 
03.May.2020

notes

Taimur
Hi, everyone Taimur here, we had a few technical issues in the first half of this week's podcast. So my audio quality will be kind of rubbish. I've tried to go over the bits that were particularly bad and kind of voice over them. So, you'll notice that those will be added in the first half. But from about 24 minutes in, the quality should be back to a reasonable level. So please be patient and get through it. And sorry about difficulties. Thanks.
Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity, and the human condition.
Ali
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing on this fine day?
Taimur
Been alright, mate. The weeks gone by so quickly, man, it feels like literally yesterday that we were chatting on last week's episode of the podcast. It's yeah, I don't know. It's It's weird how fast time is going now. Although in fairness, that was only six days ago, normally we leave it to like 10pm on the Sunday before we record. Yeah, that's true. But I don't know. Yeah, it's weird, because everyone seems to have had the same experience that March went by really slowly and April just kind of disappeared in a flash. And it's like, it seems it's insane how aligned everyone is on that? At least on Twitter. Oh, I was gonna say it's the first time I'm hearing a bit but not following the right people on Twitter clearly. But no, it's been a good week, we had a big week this week for Causal, we made an offer to our first employee. And hopefully he'll accept. He has verbally accepted. But he does have a couple of competing offers. So we'll see what his final decision is. Who's your first employee? Like what is his vibe? He's a cool dude. He is in Italy. He actually started off doing like finance stuff. So he started off as like an Excel guy, doing like Excel. And then he slowly started to do a bit of like, you know, coding inside Excel using like VBA or whatever to automate some of his Excel work. And then kind of realized that, woah, this coding stuff is pretty neat. And then taught himself how to program and he's been working as a software engineer for the past few years.
Ali
Wait, he learned to code?
Taimur
I know, I was really reluctant.
Ali
How can you hire someone who's learned to code? (laughter) I mean, everyone knows it's unfashionable to learn to code these days. As you preach to everyone. And on the note of learning to code. And that's usually my sponsorship segue into Brilliant in my YouTube videos. So every time..
Taimur
I thought Brilliant was like a maths thing.
Ali
Math, science and computer science. And so they've got like an introduction to computer science. They've got a nice Python course they've got an Advanced Python course. So that's usually my in anytime I'm doing a video talking about money. I'd be like, "If you want to make money, kids, learn to code by going to Brilliant." It's a seamless segue anyway, sorry. You were talking about your life.
Taimur
Yeah. So we've made him the offer. Hopefully he'll accept. Yeah, we happy days. He seems like a great guy.
Ali
Are you allowed to say how much you offered him?
Taimur
Ah, I'm sure I'm allowed. I just don't really see the point.
Ali
Okay, fair enough.
Taimur
How about you? How's your week? I really can't remember. I feel like it's gone by in a flash (laughter). Yeah, work was annoyingly busy. Like it was super chill for the first few weeks of quarantine when no one was coming into the hospital. But now people are starting to come into hospital. And so the workload is similar to what it was before. And usually kind of in the early days of quarantine, I could get a couple of hours on my iPad, at least. But I haven't been able to do that the last few days.
Ali
Which is it's kind of nice in a way because it means the time just absolutely flies when I'm at work.
Taimur
What do you mean, "get in a couple of hours on my iPad?"
Ali
As in there's enough free time at work to, you know, clock in a few hours on the iPad on iPad screen time, either kind of making notes or reading stuff or whatever.
Taimur
Oh, I see it right. Basically kind of productive procrastination on the iPad. Unfortunately, I've had to actually do some work this last week. So I haven't been able to do that to the extent that I normally. That sucks.
Ali
God. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So that's my life. What are we talking about this week? I'm quite excited by this week's topic.
Taimur
Yeah. So this week, we're finally talking about a theory/framework called Transactional Analysis. And this is kind of, this is one of the ideas that I've come across in the past few years. Yeah, this is one of the very few ideas that I've come across in the past few years that has been kind of like mind blowing. Like, it seems like a genuinely sort of novel and useful model for things like social interaction. So yeah, the hope for this framework, it was produced by a guy called Dr. Berne, something Berne back in like the 50s or something. 1950s. And I guess you can probably class it as like psychotherapy, or like psychiatry or something. So like, yeah, this guy himself. Yeah, this guy was a psychiatrist. And it's like the framework is used like as a tool in psychiatry/psychotherapy, I think it was more it was more popular as a psychiatric tool, probably in like, the 60s-70s or something like that. Now, I don't know how popular it is. But I think it has a lot of potential to just be kind of applied outside the realm of like professional psychiatry or psychotherapy.
And just be applied in our day to day lives.
Ali
Okay.
Could it potentially be turned into a Skillshare class? I'm sure it could. Okay, awesome.
Taimur
Actually, yeah, yeah.
Ali
I'm all ears. (laughter) Fantastic. All right. Good thing we're recording this interview.
Taimur
Ali just got off of his phone (laughter). Yeah, I'm ready to go lad. Here we go. Hit me, what is Transactional Analysis?
Ali
Okay. Yeah, this is my take on Transactional Analysis, essentially, the original guy who came up with it, you know, he kind of formulated this whole thing, he had lots of, you know, various theories about this. Some of them are quite extreme. This is my take on it. And my take on it is that it's a useful framework, to be able to make sense of social interaction, and also be able to make sense of why we feel and think the things that we feel and think.
Taimur
Okay, so we're not going to get angry emails from people saying that actually this doesn't apply in all these different extreme circumstances and that Yeah, yeah. Well, we may still get them. But I just like, yeah, I guess out front, we're not making any truth claims here. We're not trying to say that this is scientific or science. You know, some of the parts of the framework are, you know, there has been some scientific research that kind of suggests that it's not a million miles off. But I'm not approaching this from a like, this is how the brain works. This is how psychology works. I'm approaching this from this is a useful, but probably wrong model that helps us kind of learn a bit more about ourselves, and sort of think about how we interact with people. Fantastic. Okay, I'm now excited, raring to go. What I say here is basically that I've tried reading a bunch of different books about Transaction Analysis. But actually found a lot of them really hard to get into. Especially the ones written by Dr. Berne himself. I found one good book by a chap called Thomas Anthony Harris, which is called: "I'm OK – You're OK" And I find that to be a much more accessible kind of intro into all the various concepts. And he actually wrote it as a more of a laypersons guide to the field. And it's kind of a version of things that you can almost use for self help. Oh, yes. All right, I'm off the iPad now as well. Okay, so, in this book, Harris starts off with a really good story, I think, like sets the scene really quite nicely. And the story is this: So once an old farmer tinkering with a rusty harrow on a country road was approached by an earnest young man from the University Extension Service, who was making farm to farm calls for the purpose of selling a new manual on soil conservation and new farming techniques, basically, you know, bigwig from the business school was coming to the farm and saying, "Hey, guys, let me tell you how to make a farm more food." And so the story goes after polite and polish speech, the young man asked the farmer if you would like to buy this new book. To which the old man replied, "Son, I don't farm half as good as I know how already." I think this is one of my favorite stories, because it's like, you know, basically, the farmer is saying, look, man, I know what I need to do. So like, three by five, I'm just not doing it right now. Okay. You know, I don't farm half as good as I already know how to do. And, and yeah, Harris says like, the purpose of this book is not only the presentation of new data, as in, new ideas, new information, but also as an answer to the question of why people do not live as good as they know how already, so..
Ali
Oh, okay. That's interesting. It almost sounds like the whole productivity stuff. I thought this was like a book about social interaction.
Taimur
It's a framework for like, thinking about your thoughts and feelings and stuff and it has application in social interaction. Yeah, yeah, it is definitely about social interaction. Okay, so here's why it's about social interaction. So essentially, sort of, for a long time psychotherapy was quite often criticized as almost like an uncivic field. And the reason for this -- I think this is pretty interesting -- the reason was because there hasn't historically been a basic units of observation in the field, okay? So for example, in you know, in physics, the basic unit of observation might be the atom or molecule or something like that, you know, in Chemistry maybe it's a molecule. What I'm essentially saying here is that the field of psychotherapy historically didn't really have much standardized language that they can kind of keep everyone on the same page. There was a clinical psychologist at Harvard, Dr. Timothy Leary, who said that one of his greatest frustrations with the field was actually that no one had yet come up with a way to standardize the language and the observations that people made about human behavior. You can kind of think of Transactional Analysis as an attempt at standardizing human behavior into lots of different categories, so that we can actually talk about it and reason about it, while we're on the same page. .. and Timothy Leary says that, you know, even used-car salesmen have their little blue books. Even in baseball there's behaviors recorded by various indices you know, runs batted in, run average, like they're all tracking lots of things and communicating on the basis of standard language. You know, they don't use poetic language. Like, he runs off for a flyball like a deer, or he's an obsessive fielder, they use actual behaviors and actual kind of, you know, concepts so everyone's on the same page and Transactional Analysis is an attempt to answer this: So what what the particle is to physics and what the run is to baseball. The key unit of observation Transactional Analysis is the transaction. And that's what ..(laughter)
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
So, okay, that's our first bit of terminology. Look, there's gonna be like some terminology and things I've tried to like pepper this with good stories, and like anecdotes and things that you can apply to your own lives. But, this episode will take some active listening, so please listen actively. So we don't want to get emails, rather, Taim doesn't want to get emails being like, "Oh, your podcast is such easy listening." Yeah.
Ali
Those emails, really grind him good.
Taimur
Okay, cool. So I just said, the transaction is kind of the basic unit of observation we have about kind of social behavior. I've called it like the unit of social intercourse. And a transaction is basically when I do something to you and you do something back, that's what a transaction is, that might be like talking, it might be, you know, non verbal acknowledgment, or whatever. It's basically when I do something to you, and you do something back. And this is part you'll see later on, as I explained more of the concepts. But this is one of the things I really liked about this framework, which is that it's very like, it's very, like plain English. What I'm trying to get out here is basically that the language of Transactional Analysis is extremely simple. The title of this particular book is called: "I'm OK – You're OK." You know, plain English stuff. Another good book about Transaction Analysis is called: "What Do You Say After You Say Hello?" So, it's not technical. It's not complicated. It's very fundamental stuff, right? And so I can't say that one of the key concepts of Transaction Analysis is that inside of each of us, we'll have multiple different natures, okay? Different sort of identities. And this is not a new idea. Lots of thinkers over time have arrived at the same insight that we each have multiple identities, multiple natures, you know, there are multiple some things inside each of us. So the question is, what is a useful way to break down our multiple natures. So you know, you might view your identity as like a battle between your higher nature and your lower nature, or maybe like a fight between good and evil inside of you. And lots of people have attempted to come up with good frameworks for how to break down our personalities or our identities. Sigmund Freud, you know, he came up with the Id, the Ego and the Super Ego, which is quite a technical thing, mainly aimed at sort of psychiatrists and psychotherapists. And this is the main problem with a lot of the possible breakdowns: they're kind of technical and complicated. So they've largely remained within the realm of professionals and experts in various fields, rather than the common man. And so the Transactional Analysis answer to what are the different people inside of us is that there are three people inside of us. There's the parent, the adult, and the child. We have three people. All right, we have the parent, we have the adult and we have the child. And again, I love it. It's like, it's so simple. Like, there's no technical terms. This is like plain English. It looks like ego BS. Yeah, like, what the hell does that mean? I think our last, okay, cool, such have three. It's okay. Now, the.. essentially, within the framework, you should think about your brain, almost like a tape recorder, you know? From the moment you're born, your brain is kind of recording all sorts of stuff. It's like continuously recording events. And crucially, it's also recording the feelings that you have associated with an event. And you can't really separate the two. And like, anecdotally, intuitively, I buy this completely. Like, it's kind of how when, you know, even if you can't consciously recall a memory or something, you might hear a song that just kind of immediately takes you back into a particular moment that you wouldn't consciously know about, right? And like all the feelings associated with that come up as well. And so you should think of your brain is like this tape recorder that's recording experiences and feelings. And even if you can't, even if consciously you don't know it's there, there's an awful lot of stuff in there, that your brain has taken in, okay? And so the parents person inside of you, is essentially a collection of recordings that we experienced in our early years. So mostly before the age of five, and most you know, when you're little kids, most of your experience with the outside world comes through your actual parents. So, these recordings in your Parents -- capital P, Parents -- refers to the parents identity inside you, you know, normal parent refers to your mom or dad, okay? So the recordings in your capital P, Parents. Are mostly, you know, data from your actual parents and other authority figures that you were exposed to while you were growing up. So for and crucially like the data in your capital P, Parents, is completely unedited. Like, when you're a child you don't have, you know, you're not advanced enough to be able to edit things or correct things or explain things. So, for example, if you're three years old, and you see your parents fighting about something, all you record is like, the terror of what's going on, you don't record the context of the fights like, oh, you know, my dad had a hard week at work, or, you know, my mom was stressed. And, you know, they actually love each other very much. But like, yeah, you record like, the sheer terror of watching your parents fight.
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
Cool. And so the parents, in your Parent, you basically have lots of recordings of all the kind of rules and admonitions that you were exposed to as a child. And so this is stuff like nonverbal communication, like the tone of voice, facial expressions, you know, cuddling, all the way up to actual kind of rules and regulations, like your parents saying no to something, your parents saying, don't do that. See, inside of you, you do have, like, you know, that there are lots of instances of people saying, you know, don't do that, or this is good, that's bad. And you know, there's instance of them, like making a certain, like, facial expression in response to you doing something, and all those recordings are in there. And so you have feelings associated with lots of things just because of that. And it also includes, like, random pronouncements, you know, like, I'm sure every parent basically has like phrases that they just really into, you know, like, you know, you can't trust men, or you can't trust women, or you're judged by the company you keep -- all these kinds of, you know, phrases or sayings that people might have said to you, when you were younger. That's all data recorded in the Parent as well. And it doesn't, it crucially doesn't matter whether those sayings, or you know, whether it's phrases or whether those kind of interactions were good or bad or actually fit into a reasonable or coherence ethic. They're just permanently recorded as like, feelings and experiences. So, you know, even if you no longer stand by something that your parents kind of hammered into you as a kid, that thing still has some power over you. Because, you know, it went straight into your Parents - capital P Parent - unedited. You get what I mean? Okay. So far, we've said that the internal mind is split up into three, the Parent, the Adult and the Child. Yes.
Ali
And when you're a child, you're saying that the recordings are put into the parent zone, I.e. you kind of take them at face value, and they have power over you, you don't really have the capacity to critically assess them. Yes, exactly. This is..
Taimur
Is that why I was like, I often like, if, if I think back to my kind of childhood and teenage years, I would often use phrases that Mimi would have said quite a lot growing up. And it's only now that I look back and for example, read the emails that me and my friends would've sent to one another, I think, wow, I was really just parroting what Mimi was saying. Hell yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And there's a really good example for the book. So Thomas Harris wrote the book, he was talking to one of his patients. And one of his patients said that, you know, her mother always had a rule that you should never put a hat on a table or a coat on the bed. And she always thought this was like a bit of a weird rule. Like, why is my mom so strong about putting hats on tables and coats on beds. But like, every time she broke that rule, her mom had like, a reaction that seemed like, you know, a bit extreme. You know, it seemed like a weird thing. But her mom always reacted strongly to her, like putting the hat on the table or the coat to bed. And so, you know, to this day, like the recording is still there. And you know, because her mom told her not to do these things. She kind of blindly told her kids not to put hats on tables and coats on beds. And one day her kids were like, yeah, fine, we'll do it or whatever. But like, why are you so obsessed with the hat and the table and the coat on the bed? And eventually the mom and you went back to her mom and said, "Hey, Mom, why do we never put hats on tables and coats on the bed?" And and and her mom said that when she was little, so whe the mom's mom was little, some kids in their neighborhood had been infested b some kind of disease, and they didn't want the disease to spread or something So when the neighborhood kids came over, they didn't let them put their hats on the table or their coats on the bed. And so, you know, in the context of her mom's mom, this is a reasonable thing. Like, you should definitely know. It's a bit like, like with all the Coronavirus stuff that's going on, it's like, you know, don't go within six meters of someone, right? And like this was kind of like a recording in the mums parents inside her head. And she didn't really get it, but like, it had a strong power of her and she kind of like enforced that on her kids as well. And yeah, so that's kind of a similar example to what you mentioned, which is that you know, when you were younger, you just had like these phrases or th se things that our Mum used to say, and you just kind of like internalized the or something without like critically assessing them and you kind of like then eed them back to your friends and actually they affect the way you live, Yeah, absolutely. This kind of reminds me. There's a -- I'm sure you've come across this -- there's this famous experiment within psychology where they've done a study on on monkeys and they get this group of five monkeys and you know they have this banana at the top of a ladder. But anytime any of the monkeys go and reach to go and try to get the bananas, the ladder gets electrocuted and all of the monkeys get sprayed with water. Wait, wait, wait, I don't think I was recording. Okay, you're an idiot then because your audio was also absolutely crap for most of that. Like it was really really distorting. I had to really struggle to hear what you were saying over Zoom. Oh, shit. Okay, well, I'm recording now. Let's start from the beginning. We haven't gotten that far.
Ali
Bloody hell.
Taimur
I'm sorry. I thought I started recording.
Ali
Why are you not constantly monitoring to make sure the two lights are on? Have you not been burned by this enough times? I swear the two lights were on. Like the light is on even if you're not recording. One light is on when you're not recording.
Taimur
Really?
Ali
Yeah, the light underneath the one which says that that's the thing that's active. Two lights are on the light just above the record button when you actually record it.
Taimur
Are we about 36 minutes in?
Ali
We are 24 minutes in by my record.
Taimur
Okay. Yeah, I definitely wasn't recording. All right, let's take it from the top (laughter). Don't worry, I know what I'm trying to say. So I'll be quick. (laughter) Just chill out, man. It's all good.
Ali
Okay, no, no, wait. Stop the Zoom recording and see what it sounds like. So, the summary of what we said is that I'm going to be telling my kids. Kids, when you're recording audio, make sure you see two lights present at all times.
Taimur
(laughter)
Ali
And they're gonna tell that to their kids, they're gonna tell it to their kids until in 200 years time, people are gonna be like, "Make sure you always see two lights recording." That's funny, because we just cut out and Taimur realized that he wasn't recording on his microphone, despite having been burned by this many times before.
Taimur
Classical, mate. Alright, so we basically got up to discussing So your parents might tell you things about what's right and wrong. And this quick summary so far: within each of us, we have three different people, we have the Parent, the Adult and the Child. We were just talking about the arent, and how the the P¢arent inside of us is basically a set of recordings of ur experiences as a child, which mostly come from our own parents and other uthority figures. And these experiences have a lot of, you know, a lot of we ave a lot of recordings of people telling us what to do, what not to do. And crucially, as a young child, we don't have the thinking ability to edit or anal ze or assess the information that we're being told, we just kind of take it at ace value. regardless of whether those are actually good ways to live, in your opinion, you will still internalize them, and you will actually take them in and they'll form sort of part of your worldview. And so another quick example, which I think is pretty interesting. So there's a husband and wife, okay, and in their household they had all the kind of modern conveniences that you'd expect. A washing machine dishwasher, all this kind of stuff. But there was one weird thing which was that the wife didn't want to get a garbage disposal unit. Do you know what a garbage disposal unit is, Ali?
Ali
No, what is that?
Taimur
Basically, it's not really a thing in the UK, but in the US, are built into your sink is a thing where you can like put all the waste food. So like you don't have to scrape your plate into like the the bin and then put it in the sink. You just like shove everything into the sink. There's like a, you know, the plug hole can take in like waste food and everything like that.
Ali
Oh, and then you press a button somewhere and then like "grrrr"
Taimur
Yeah, exactly.
Ali
And then there's like all these horror films, comedy scenes where people get their hands caught up in it and to get mangled.
Taimur
Yes, precisely. So, you know, this husband and wife they had like all the modern stuff, but for some reason the wife didn't want to get a garbage disposal unit. And you know, the husband encouraged her to get one, you know, it would make both their lives a lot easier in the kitchen. And the wife agreed, like, yeah, our lives would probably be easier. But she kept finding excuses for not actually getting around to getting this garbage disposal unit. And eventually the husband basically caught on to the fact that the wife was deliberately not getting one, it wasn't just that it was passing her mind. She was deliberately not getting one. And he insisted that she tell him why. And after some reflection, the wife recognized that she had like a very particular early impression about garbage. So the wife actually grew up in the Great Depression in the 1930s in America. Where you know, it was pretty desperate times for almost everyone. And they actually used to keep the garbage and feed it to the pig, which they had. And then at Christmas, they would butcher the pig and eat the meat. And you know, they sort of save the garbage to the extent that they didn't even use soap for washing the dishes. They kind of washed it with water and then gave the dishwasher to the pig to eat as well. So it has nutrients. And so based on her early childhood experiences, she had this like strongly internalized thing about like, you shouldn't like throw anything away, like garbage is not to be thrown We have to like, you know, make use of every last drop. And that kind of shaped away. how she felt about garbage. And that was why she was so resistant to buying the garbage disposal thing, but like it wasn't immediately obvious to her why that was. It took some like thinking and some sort of confrontation for her to think about like why am I so against the garbage disposal unit? And there's a happ And then those recordings are kind of playing out when she's an adult without ending, she did eventually buy the garbage disposal unit and she was very happ with that afterwards. So as a child, she, you know, inside her parents, she ha these recordings of, you know, her mom and dad saying, like, you know, we don t throw garbage away, this is what you do with garbage, we have to save everyt ing, we can't waste anything, all this kind of stuff. her necessarily consciously being aware of it? Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's just like a feeling kind of thing. Okay, so that I hope that kind of illustrates what I mean by kind of the parents and the recording of the Parent. Cool. So that was the Parent. Next, the next person inside of us is the Adult. And the Adult, is essentially the recordings that we accumulate as a result of our own kind of finding things out and our own reasoning about the world ourselves. So the adult is kind of our sort of our conscious thinking selves. So through the adult, we can essentially tell the difference between life as it was taught or demonstrated to us, you know, to the records of the parents. We can tell distribute that, and life as we actually figure out for ourselves. And the Adult kind of gathers data from both, you know, it gathers data externally, so from the world, so, you know, experiences and recordings of the world around you. But it also processes data from your other two identities, it processes the data from the Parent and the Child. And actually a very important function of the Adult is to examine the data in the Parent, and decide whether it's legit. And the same goes for the Child is to examine the data in the Child and decide whether it's still legit. And so a big part of Transaction Analysis is to, the goal of transaction analysis is to emancipate the adults inside all of us, to enable each of us to have the freedom of choice and to be able to change at will, how we respond to things. And this often comes down to overriding the data in the Parent and overriding data in the Child. And finally...
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
That brings us on to the Child, where essentially, while the Parent is kind of the recordings of external events that happen to us as a child, the Child inside of us sort of stores the internal events, like how we felt and how we responded, when we were really young, to all of those sorts of things. And so when you kind of replay recordings in the child, you're actually kind of reliving those experiences and those feelings associated with them. So for example, you know, that I guess there's lots of cases where, you know, you might be like a fully grown adult, and maybe like consciously you think I don't, I don't really care what my parents think I don't, I don't need that validation anymore. I'm an adult. And then you know, your mom, or your dad kind of says something to you. And like, for some reason, like even though you think you're kind of above it, or whatever, it still has an effect on you, because them saying like, no, you shouldn't do this, or whatever, that replays the recordings inside your child of them saying that when you were a kid, and you're actually reliving those experiences, you don't, you can't really control the fact that it still has, like, it creates an emotion inside of you. Do you get what I mean?
Ali
Yeah, man. 100%. I am fully, I'm fully on board.
Taimur
I noticed you were just tearing up while I was saying that, do
Ali
It was like, oh my god. This is like, speaking to myself. ou want... (laught
Taimur
Yeah. So, the Child and the capital C, Child, inside of us, stores all of these feelings and, and kind of responses that we had as kids to things. And it's also kind of the source of our emotions, creativity, spontaneity, intimacy, all of this kind of emotional side of us that comes from the childhood side of us. Okay?
Ali
That seems a bit of a stretch.
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
That final bit.
Taimur
Yeah, I agree.
Ali
It seems a bit of..
Taimur
I agree, I agree it seems a bit of a stretch, but I'm personally okay with it. And hopefully, that'll become clearer as we go.
Ali
So, and hopefully I'll be okay with it. (laughter)
Taimur
Yeah. Okay, so, Parent, Adult, Child, these are the three kind of nature's of three identities inside all of us. And, you know, what's the point of all of this? The point is to help us change. Yeah, change, full stop. The point is to help us change so that we can live happier lives. The goal of Transaction Analysis, like I said, it's to emancipate the Adult to kind of free the Adult identity inside of us. So that we can change how we respond to new stimuli and recurring stimuli. And this all comes from having a more objective view of reality. And this objective view is kind of skewed by the data in the Parent and the data in the Child. Did you get that?
Ali
Yep, absolutely
Taimur
Cool. And so like this is exactly the same goal as many other like, different philosophies or frameworks, like Stoicism and stuff like that. The goal is to sort of give us more control over how we think and feel about things. So we can ultimately change our lives for the better.
Ali
Okay, sure.
Taimur
Cool. So, the three Ego states that called the Parent, Adult, Child. That's kind of one very key concept of Transaction Analysis. Give me a second here because I do have to refer back to my book because my mind notes in Rome are not quite complete.
Ali
We know what they say. All roads lead to Rome.
Taimur
Nice. Okay, cool. So once you're on board with the three different states, the corollary to that is that when two people are interacting, you know, in any transaction, so remember transaction is when I do something to you, and you do something back. So in any transaction, it's not just me transacting with you, it's one of the identities inside me transacting with one of the identities inside you. Okay? So, yeah, it's all coming together. So you know, you can have like, parent-child transactions, even if you know, some, even if you're not, my parents or not your child. We could have a Parent-Child transaction, we can have an Adult-Adult transaction, we can have a Parent-Parent transaction, like, there's all these kind of, you know, three factorial combinations of, sorry, three squared combinations of transactions.
Ali
Which is the same as three factorial.
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
Absolutely not. Okay. I just lied. This is why I didn't do math school.
Taimur
They need to kick you out of study team.
Ali
I think I've aged out, but..
Taimur
Okay. I'll give you some examples of different kinds of transactions. And hopefully, it'll help you kind of see kind of what's going on, okay? So I'll give you an example of a Parent-Parent transaction to start off with, right? So..
Ali
Okay, hold on. Quick question. Is this something weird with your internet, because your voice coming across is very distorted to me.
Taimur
Your voice just now came across as distorted to me, but it hasn't before. So I think it's just a temporary thing that happens every now and then. Is mine is like permanently distorted?
Ali
I mean, it wasn't before it was sort of the distortion level that it was in our first recording.
Taimur
Okay, well, I think yours is now that level of distortion for me.
Ali
Oh, it's better now.
Taimur
Yeah, yours is better now as well. All right, whatever.
Ali
Fine.
Taimur
So, I'll give you an example of a Parent-Parent transaction, okay? So, you know, the guy, Thomas Harris, the guy who wrote the book. He was on a Greyhound, which is basically like a long distance coach to Berkeley in California. And you know, as a guy who is, you know, thinks about this kind of stuff, whenever he's like sitting around, he's like, observing the transactions that people are having around him and making notes about them. And so he noticed that two kind of, you know, oldish ladies were having an exchange. And he said that this was a Parent-Parent exchange between two cheerless ladies. So they're kind of grumpy. And they were developing a rather extensive philosophy around the point of whether or not the bus would get to Berkeley on time, okay? And so the exchange went something like this. So Lady 1, she sort of looks at her watch, kind of winds it, mumbles catches the eye of the lady next to her kind of sighs. Then Lady 2 kind of like, sighs back, like, oh, yeah, you know, kind of looks at her watch. And a Lady 1 says, "Oh, it looks like we're going to be late again." And then Lady 2 says, "Yeah, never fails." And then Lady 1 says, "You ever seen a bus on time ever?" And Lady 2, she was like, "Nope, never. I've never seen a bus on time." And then Lady 1 is like, "Just like I was saying to her about this morning, you just don't get any service anymore like we used to." And Lady 2 says, "Oh, you're absolutely right. It's a sign of the times." And Lady 1 says "Costly though, you can count on that." So this is that gives a flavor of kind of the interaction that was going on. And this is a Parent-Parent interaction, a Parent-Parent transaction. Do you kind of get why?
Ali
So they're both speaking, basically, their childhood selves. Or rather, basically, they're speaking from the recordings that their childhood selves received that, Oh, God, buses are never on time. And I just kind of bringing that up again, as adults without really critically assessing the fact, well, actually, some buses are properly on time.
Taimur
Yes. So, I think that there was there's some bits that I missed out when I was explaining the three states. So like, the Parent isn't just like, like, it's the recordings. But that doesn't mean that every feeling you have comes directly from a recording. In this case, I think what's actually going on is that there's lots of recordings of a sort of parents kind of admonishing the child sort of saying, like, oh, you know, kind of parent stance, sort of looking down on something and kind of scorning something. Yeah, I think scorning is a good word. It's like a scorn is a very, like, parent sort of feeling or attitude. And these two ladies are basically just sitting there scorning the bus. And so like, you know, they probably heard their own parents like complaining, but like you said, they are complaining about stuff not being on time, but also just their own parents complaining about things or saying like, "Oh, this is bad. It's not the way it used to be this kind of stuff." And so that's why this is sort of like a Parent-Parent transaction.
Ali
Okay, so they're essentially parroting stuff that they probably heard their parents say, who were parroting stuff that they probably had their parents say and which is why this is a Parent-Parent interaction.
Taimur
Yes. Yeah. It's not directly parrot like their parents wouldn't have had to say, "Oh, buses are never on time." It's just a general like vibe of the parents, just kind of scorning something. Almost like point scoring, right,? We talked about in Episode One of this podcast a year ago talking about like point scoring of like, you know, correcting people or like saying that like something else, you know, putting something else down. That's like...
Ali
So, essentially this kind of like scornful attitude of being like, you know, that Ed Sheeran concert wasn't very good. For example.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, I guess somewhat. And so yeah, I'll just read the author's and also the, yeah, yeah, it's like a judgmental exchange that these ladies as children would have overheard between their own moms and aunties and stuff, over, you know, buses and over all sorts of things. And essentially, it's finding like blame or fault with something else as a way of like, feeling good about ourselves almost. And that's like a very Parent thing to do, okay? And so, this brings me on to like, what I think is one of the absolutely hilarious parts of Transaction Analysis. And we won't have enough time to properly dig into this today, we'll have to do that next week. But essentially, the guy who came up with this stuff thinks that you can categorize transactions, many transactions come under the category of what's called a game. And he thinks that he has a book called: "Games People Play", where he basically lists out, I don't know, like, 20 or 30 games that people play, this particular game that these two ladies are playing is called: "Ain't it awful?", and it's basically when two people are like, you know, having a good old wedge about like, oh, is it awful, you know? And like, if you think about, like, I did, if you read this book, you know, we'll talk about games more in the next episode. But like, it's, it's just really funny, because like the language that he uses to describe the games, like this one's called: "Ain't it awful?" There's one called: "General Motors", which is basically the game in which two people, traditionally guys, stand around talking about cars, or like, you know, gadgets, or whatever that's called General Motors. And so (laughter) I'd say like, he has like, he's like, you've broken down a large swath of human interaction into these games that people play and he's given them names. And like, once you read the names, you can like see it clear as day that Oh, my God, like, so often.
Ali
That's what I've doing.
Taimur
Yeah, we're just going around play these stupid games. So yeah, this is a case of "Ain't it awful?" And I'll give you one more example of a transaction. This is actually an Adult to Parent transaction. Actually, sorry, let's continue to analyze the two ladies one. So, that was a Parent-Parent transaction. But what it would have looked like if that was like a Parent-Adult transaction. So, if Lady 2 decided not to respond with her Parent and decided to respond with her Adult, what might that have look like? So, you know. I'd be like Lady 1, like, "Oh, man, oh, this busses man, looks like we're gonna be late, there never on time, man."
Ali
I mean, I suppose it could go one of two ways. One way of dealing with that is to sort of put yourself in the position of the adult and recognize what the other person is doing and be like, "Yeah, tell me about it." And then leave it at that. The other way of doing it would be to like, "Well, you know, actually, it's pretty normally on time. And hey, you know, I guess we'll be a few minutes late to a destination."
Taimur
Yeah, basically, like, I think I agree, I think an Adult response would be to kind of defuse the situation by just, you know, just like smiling or something like not engaging, or by, you know, saying like, I don't know, I don't really ride the bus, or like, I think buses are actually usually on time, or like, yeah, have you been late before? You know, maybe we can ask the driver or something, you know, just like an adult response, rather than continuing to play "Ain't it awful?". All right, so now onto a parent's, an Adult-Parent transaction. Okay. So in this example of the adult to parent transaction. There's a husband and the wife, okay? And the husband asks, "Hey, honey, where are my cufflinks?" Okay. And then the wife says, "They're where you left them." And essentially, what's happening, you know, is that they both answered like one sentence to each other. But this is a, this is a transaction where the husband is the Adult and the wife is the Parent. So the husband's like, "Oh, honey, where are my cufflinks?" Pretty standard normal question. You know, it's like an adult question. And then the wife responds, kind of, you know, like, almost like a telling off the way you left them. And at this..
Ali
It's sort of like, "Hey, honey, what's the time?", "Well, it's time you got a watch."
Taimur
Yeah, maybe? Sure. Yeah. And like, this is an issue, right? And like every, you know, I'm sure we've all been in these kinds of situations where it's like, very clearly an issue because essentially, you can't have an Adult to Parent transaction, that sort of, all right, I don't want to get into the theory of like, what this guy calls Cross Transactions. The theory is that certain pairs of identities can have like, ongoing transaction. So for example, the two went on the bus, they can have their Parent-Parent game of "Ain't it awful?" you know, till the cows come home, I think that's a phrase. And it's fine. Like, I think that basically keep like responding positively to one another and the game and keep going on. If it's a Parent-Child transaction, it's fine, because like, the child understands their role and like the parent, that they're always playing complementary roles. In an Adult to Parent transaction, they're not playing complimentary roles. And so, you know. The moment the wife responds through her Parent, rather than her Adult, they basically have to stop now and say, "Whoa, hold up. All right, what's going on?" You know? Because they can't really, yeah, they can't really talk about the cufflinks anymore, they first have to settle, why the husband doesn't pose cufflinks away. Like in the appropriate place, right? Like the wife responding in that way kind of changes what's going on. And so that they're kind of an impasse, impasse. And so this, like, you know, this kind of non-complimentary transaction will then trigger, you know, it'll often trigger some kind of game, and like, I'll name some games, and we'll go into the next time. So, there's games such as "It's all you", "If it weren't for you, I could." And my favorite, "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch." (laughs)
Ali
(laughs)
Taimur
"Now I've got you, you son of a bitch", is like a really popular game. And so yeah, basically, once a, you know, if you have like a non-complimentary transaction, like Adult to Parent, then you know, you have to like, address it. You can't just keep going on. Does that make sense?
Ali
Yeah, absolutely.
Taimur
Okay, cool. So, look, so far we've covered kind of the motivation for this kind of thing is to sort of make sense of social interaction in a structured way that lets us kind of. So for example, if we didn't have this, if we didn't have the PAC framework, the Parent, Adult, Child framework, we would not really be able to look at those. Yeah, I think we talked about two different sets of transactions, we wouldn't be able to look at them, and really think about what's going on, like the two old ladies, we wouldn't really be able to dig into what's going on there. What could have been different, the husband, the wife, we wouldn't really be able to analyze that. But we have this shared like useful sort of vocabulary and framework through like the three ego states, the Parent, Adult, Child, that kind of lets us look at an interaction like that. And think, you know, what's actually going on here? And that's useful, right?
Ali
Yeah, absolutely. I'm fully on board with it. I'm like super excited by how this discussion will progress. And I'm even more excited at the possibility of all the spin off content I can think about Transactional Analysis. Because I feel like this is something that is so relevant to so many people. And yet I haven't seen a single video on YouTube yet.
Taimur
So when I was doing research, I've read some books on this. I've started making notes in Rome, I went to find more sources and stuff. I've done some YouTubing. Like I've searched on YouTube for this stuff. It all sucks. It's all like some, you know, there's nothing that has more than like 10,000 views or something. I just saw like these really low quality, obscure kind of, you know, someone sitting in front of a camera for like, 10 minutes talking at you about this thing, like giving a lecture almost. So like, there's no compelling video content about this stuff.
Ali
There's my video idea gone (laughter).
Taimur
Yeah, so I think we'll end it there on the actual content about the Transaction Analysis stuff. And next next week, we'll we'll we'll dig in a bit more into actually, so I'll give you a bit of a teaser. So next week, we will talk about games, which I think is really entertaining, because then you kind of see these games play out just to the people around you, like "Ain't it awful" And then there's the thing that really resonated with me, which is Life Positions. So Thomas Harris, so the stuff about Life Positions, wasn't actually in the kind of, I think it wasn't actually in the original formulation of Transaction Analysis by this Berne guy. But the guy who wrote this book, Thomas Harris, I think he came up with the Life Positions and the life positions. Just give me a moment. Okay, so a Life Position, basically, is one of the four, there are four possible life positions, okay? They are, "I'm not okay, You're okay". That's one. Two is, "I'm not okay, You're not okay". Three is, "I'm okay, You're not okay". And four is, "I'm okay, You're okay". All right. So those are the four Life Positions. And and it's basically like a stance or like a view that we have about ourselves and about other people. And Harris strongly believes that everyone in life starts off in the I'm not okay position, where, you know, you're a child, you know, you're kind of helpless. you kind of need other people to do stuff for you. People always telling you to do things. You kind of see yourself as not okay. And you see all these other big tall six foot people around you as being okay. And so the starting life position for the vast majority of people, according to Harrison, I agree with this is "I'm not okay, You're okay". Okay. And most of us, according to Harris, an awful lot of people spend their whole lives grappling with the "I'm not okay" position. And, you know, all of the things that we do, you know, constantly like seeking validation from others like, or basically all of that kind of stuff that takes place in our head comes from the "I'm not okay" position that every child is basically forced into by the fact that they're like a helpless child. And always like the the goal of of this framework is to help you sort of think about your thoughts and feelings in order to arrive at the position "I'm okay, you're okay". Where.. I mean, it kind of just says it. I don't need to go into any more detail.
Ali
It absolutely says..I remember when he first told me about the title of this book. I was like, "Oh, my goodness" because even just hearing the title of this book.
Taimur
Yeah, it sounds yeah.
Ali
Like, it just like my mind was literally blown. Like, Oh, my God, this is, this is the secret.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's a bit of a teaser. We'll be digging more into Life Positions next time. But yeah, the goal is to get us all to the "I'm okay, You're okay" position. But I think we should leave it there for this week.
Ali
Nice. Okay. I think that's pretty, pretty fruitful discussion. It wasn't much of a discussion. It was more of a 10 minute long lecture with a dude talking to his camera. But
Taimur
Yeah, but like, so I think in last week's episode, there was an incident that came up and I was like, "Ah, this is a classic case of the overarching Parent." And you were like,
Ali
Yes, what was that incident?
Taimur
What were we talking about last week?
Ali
Were we talking about me thinking I'm a twat for having a personal assistant.
Taimur
Yeah. Explain it, mate. Can you see why this might, your sort of instinctive response to the personal assistant thing.
Ali
Yeah, my instinctive response is very a Parent.
Taimur
Yeah it's like, there..
Ali
It's not adultedin the slightest. The adult response is like, this is an economically viable decision. And I should, yeah, it's the way forward, and the parent model is, oh, it's only upstarts who have assistance.
Taimur
Yeah. Or like, yeah, the sort of, yeah, I'm guessing there lots of recordings in your Parent of, you know, not not having a personal assistant, for example, I'd kind of that that being like a weird thing that, you know, you basically have to be Bill Gates until you can justify having a personal assisant kind of thing. And I'm sure, I think that's basically most people's stance on it, because like, you're not really getting exposed to this kind of stuff in a very loose way. And so your Parent had, the Parent inside of you, has lots of data suggesting that, like, it's "Oh, man, this is weird. It's weird for me to have a personal assistant, I should like, save money, like, I could do the work myself, I shouldn't pay someone else to do it. Like, you know, who do I think I am that I should have personal assistant", this is all like, yeah, it's a classic case of the Parent kind of taking over how you look at the situation.
Ali
I think this is very similar. So yesterday, I think it was. I put out a video on YouTube, and breaking down how much I earned in a given week as a doctor and a YouTuber. And I've had so many conversations with people over the last few months, kind of, .. with the idea of putting this video out there.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And everyone is so cagey about talking about money.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Specifically talking about how much money they're earning. People are okay with talking about how how much money they're spending, they're okay with saying, "Oh, my God, you know, life sucks. I had to buy this thing." Or, you know, "oh, how much was that iPhone?" It's not a big deal. But the instant comes it to "Oh, what's your salary?" People get super, super cagey about.
Taimur
Yep.
Ali
And I suspect that's a very Parent thing. The life scripts that we were we were fed growing up is that talking about money is weird, whether it's implicitly, often very explicitly. It's just like a weird thing.
Taimur
Yep.
Ali
Whereas if the Adult in us actually examine that, we realize that actually, it kind of benefits everyone if are a bit more transparent about about money.
Taimur
Yep. 100%. I was basically going to come on to that point, if you didn't bring it up. I think yeah. Attitudes towards money and like, and your attitudes towards like talking about money, certainly, from what I've seen come strongly from the parent inside all of us. And I think that's definitely one of the things where it's worth re-evaluating the Parent data to see whether we still agree with it.
Ali
Interestingly, on this note, so a few months ago, I interviewed this guy called Hasan Kubba, who's the author of a book called: "The Unfair Advantage" that I did a video on recently. And during this interview, it was like a two and a half hour long chat, which is available on nebula at curiositystream.com/Ali. It was like a two and a half hour long chat and we spent like half an hour to 40 minutes of me basically asking him right, "Do you think I should make this video" and him basically saying "No, I don't think you should", and me really trying to understand why he thought I shouldn't. And the impression is like, like a lot of his reasoning was, well, you know, it's important to have a bit of privacy in your life and I was like, okay, fine. But then, kind of his next line of defense was, "Well, if people know how much money you earn, then you become more of a target for thieves." To which I was like, Okay, fine. But I was still a bit uneasy about that, too which, and then sort of, after discussing that a bit, his kind of third line of defense was, "Well, I guess I'm in a different position, because I'm 30. And I've just got married and about to have a kid and, you know, I have to take think` of my wife's, you know, right to privacy." And I was like, Okay, fine. Fair enough. That's your trump card and in this situation, but it was, it ended up being quite a long discussion just on this point about money. Which I was more than happy to have, because I was really trying to understand, is there a valid rational reason for not doing this thing? And at the end of that conversation, I was like, Okay, I can see it from you. from his perspective. Maybe he's uncomfortable with doing it, but there's nothing from his view that actually I can apply to my situation.
Taimur
I mean, it's strongly seems like, that was like a, you know, it was like the Parent in him saying, like, "Oh, no, this is weird." And then the Adult in him trying to like, come up with justifications about why it's weird, like," Oh, you might get robbed," you know? And like we all have these, we will have these reactions, like so many different things where like, your initial reaction is something is, you know, you can't really explain why you have that reaction, but you just feel a certain way about something, until someone asks you about it, and you can't quite come up with a reason, but like, you strongly believe it, but you can't quite come up with a reason why. And that's like, that's a Parent talking.
Ali
A famously incest.
Taimur
Yes. Oh, my God. Yes.
Ali
Mate, I honestly love talking about incest. This was like one of my favorite topics at university. I'm really trying to understand whether there was any rational adult..
Taimur
There's none.
Ali
There is absolutely not. We spent like hours and hours hashing this out with so many people over the years. Yeah, no one can come up with a compelling answer. Oh, kids might be born with birth defects. Okay, fine. You can screen for those in prenatal testing.
Taimur
I think part of the reason why, I've had exactly the same experience, where it's always a fun discussion, where, I don't know, I don't know, how it comes up, or whether I bring it up or something. But like, once you're having a discussion, it's so much fun, because you can, you can see, you could almost like see a glitch in the matrix. Like you could see that like, they don't know why. It's like they people strongly believe that like incest is bad, even in modern secular society, but they can't quite articulate why. And it's just a very, it's a very interesting thing to watch, you know?
Ali
The other one that I enjoy, which I suppose the kind of people who talk to me about this possibly enjoy less, is people's reluctance to be on camera.
Taimur
Oh, my God,
Ali
I think that is a huge one. Like, so many times. Like, I've got friends who are more than happy to, for example, be in a video where they give advice about medicine applications. But for example, if they were to be in another sort of video, they would be "Oh, no, that's weird." Because why? "Because people are gonna see me online. And you know, people online are weird". But yeah, but you've been in these videos already. "Yeah, but I'm just kind of uncomfortable with it". And in those circumstances, I get a little bit annoyed, annoyed because I want to dig further to uncover the psyche here. But I know it'd be mean. And therefore, I have to kind of take a step back. Unless it's someone I know so well, that I know, I can kind of drill them like with this, like line of reasoning, and they won't feel bad about.
Taimur
Yeah, I think that comes from like, the sort of classic sort of cultural conservatism that I think most people have inside of them of like, you know, it's bad to like, oh, it's like, it's bad to put yourself out there and in kind of self promotional ways, or something like that, you know? So I think there's definitely a bit of Parent going on. I think we talked about that in depth in Episode Two.
Ali
Yeah, Episode Two was quite a good episode I thought.
Taimur
Yeah. Okay, I think we'll wrap it there on the Transaction Analysis stuff. It'll be interesting if you can try and like in the transactions that you see around you, if you try and like view them through the sort of the PAC lens of Parent, Adult, Child, and like try and understand what's going on. And like, think about like, your own transactions, think about like, why did I respond that way? Like, what's actually going on here, all this kind of stuff. I think it's a really helpful lens to view things.
Ali
Absolutely. And if anyone still listening at this point, if you haven't turned off after the incest chat. If you want to send us a voice note, too. I think like, at the end of this podcast, there's like an automatic segment where we tell you the email address, I can't remember off the top of my head.
Taimur
It's hi@overthinking.com
Ali
Oh, yeah, if you can, if you can insert like a voice note or something. Now that we've got this, well, I've got this assistant, she's helping kind of go through the emails and compiling a list of voice notes. So if we get kind of relevant stuff to this episode, we can potentially insert it into the next one. Even though we've been kind of promising this for the last several months.
Taimur
Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, we're super behind on the emails and stuff. I think we have listened to all the voice notes. I've listened to some of the voice notes that come in and we've read all the emails that have come in, we just haven't gotten around to responding. But there is a very clear and tangible action point where if you send us a voice note, you know, talking about, you know, your own experience, view your own experiences through the lens of the PAC, Parent, Adult, Child. A, that'd be super interesting. We'd love to hear it. And B, like, there's a very tangible action point, which is that we can put it in the next podcast, as content that's already fitting into what we're trying to do.
Ali
Absolutely. Right. I think that's a good place to end this. Any insights of the week?
Taimur
Yeah, why inside of the week comes from a tweets that I done today.
Ali
And my mine comes from a tweet that someone else did (laughter).
Taimur
Yeah, basically, this week, I was kind of, I was kind of reminiscing and, you know, reflecting on the state of things. And I remember that there was like, one very, like, important concrete, like turning points in like, in my life, and I would say, in like, culture and society in general, where essentially, when memes became like a mainstream thing. So for most of my teenage years, memes were this like, weird nerdy thing that me and my nerd friends and random people on the internet would make and kind of laugh out on internet forums. And if you dabble in this kind of stuff, you know, there were memes like that the foul bachelor frog meme. And then basically, the format used to be like, it's a square picture, it has some like, it has some animal face in the middle of the picture, then it has some text above it above the face and some text below the face. And so, you know, there was this, like, one of the sort of common, pretty famous original ones was called the Foul Bachelor Frog. And it's like a green. It's like a green square with a picture of a green frogs face in the middle. And then basically, the text around it would describe, describe something that kind of like single bachelor dudes might do in that kind of waste man lives. So you know, a particular, a lot of these kind of gross that won't be actually on the podcast. But one of the more tame ones was, you know, something like, you know, at the top, I would say like, "Out of shampoo?" And at the bottom would say "Use soap instead." So this is like a classic kind of gross bachelor thing of like, poor hygiene, or like, you know, "Spill a drink on the floor? Time will clean it up." You know, this kind of stuff. This is what a meme used to be. It used to be like, these formats. Yeah, there was this, this frog one. There's one called like, Bad Luck Brian where basically was it'd be a picture of this guy with like braces, he looks a bit like downtrodden by life. And then, you know, the text would describe some like, misfortune that happened to to Brian. Yeah. One of them for example is, "Jumps from tall building, doesn't die instantly" so it is like, you know, dude is unlucky. Basically, I was thinking back then, like, that's what a meme used to be used to be like a weird internet forum nerd thing. And then there was like, a very, almost like, overnight, it became like, it became something mainstream. I remember when I saw my first ever sort of mainstream meme. I think it was on Instagram. Like, my mind was completely blown. Because I think until the whole kind of mainstream meme culture happened, I didn't quite, I didn't feel much of a sense of connection. I felt a sense of connection with my fellow kind of nerd friends and internet forum people. You know, we had this shared culture, we had these shared jokes. We had this, like, you know, we shared this connection. I didn't feel much of that with the wider population in general. And I remember that in 2017, yeah. I mean, the whole kind of meme stuff started to take off before that maybe like 2013 and 2014 onwards it started to kind of go mainstream. And I remember to this day, like the first mainstream meme that I saw, and I posted about it on Twitter. And it's a picture of this guy sort of standing at a microphone looking kind of smug. And the caption is, "When your joke bangs and you're waiting for your friends to settle down" I saw this thing and like, like something. It was such a strong feeling that I had, like, something went off inside me of like, "Oh my God, that's like, A it's like hilarious and B, like so relatable." And like that I had the sense of like, something is happening here. Something new is happening here. If like someone made this picture, and I saw it, like, things aren't gonna be the same again. And yeah, like, you know, meme culture is just culture now, you know, it's like, probably like 50% of all content on Instagram is memes and reposts of memes and, you know, on Twitter as well.
Ali
Oh really?
Taimur
I mean, okay, that was, I pulled that number out.
Ali
I follow like, zero meme page.
Taimur
Yeah, you're lame, is the issue. You're lame and out of touch. And I think you're unhappier as a result. But yeah, I mean, I follow a ton of meme pages. And like the meme pages are consistently the pages where if you go on them you can see like so and so and 100 of your friends also follow this thing. Like, they're by far the most commonly followed thing, at least..
Ali
Can you put a list of good meme pages in the show notes. Because I want to start following.
Taimur
Yeah, and it's like, and the funniest thing is, it's not just like, it's also like celebrities, they all follow like the same meme pages, like you see like a list celebrities following like, I'm just bait and, you know, puberty and stuff, which are like really big Instagram meme pages. And they're like, like these memes and stuff. It's like a real kind of real equalizer.
Ali
It's an experience that brings everyone together.
Taimur
Yeah. So yeah, I was just kind of been thinking this week about like, man, it's like, so cool and so weird. And like, it's like a really special thing.
Ali
Oh, that's nice.
Taimur
Yeah. What's your insight? Let me guess. "I read a tweet this week about like, did you think about how you value your time."
Ali
My insight of the week is lame and out of touch. So I'm not gonna say it.
Taimur
(laughter) Alright just say it
Ali
No I'm not going to say it So you're gonna do that the shownotes for this week, because you can link to all
Taimur
No, say it!
Ali
Taimur, shut up. this transactional analysis stuff and link to all the meme pages I should follow. Actually, earlier today, I actually unfollowed the meme page "I'm just bait" because I was thinking these memes are bit dead.
Taimur
Really? Yeah. It's like, the issue with like mainstream meme pages is that like they have to cater for the mainstream. And like, some of them are funny, and like reasonable, whatever. But like, they're really funny stuff is going to be on like the rogue niche specific ones, you know?
Ali
Cool. Yeah. So list of meme pages in the show notes that we can all follow. And then we'll all have this shared cultural experience that brings us all as podcast hosts and listeners together.
Taimur
Absolutely. Let's just round it off by reading a review. This week's review comes from Iosis in Canada, your review is titled "This is amazing heart emoji exclamation mark." And Iosis says, "I absolutely love this podcast. I am an avid watcher of your videos. Probably means me."
Ali
I think she's talking to you.
Taimur
"And (laughter) I recently discovered this podcast and it's changed my life. I couldn't listen to podcasts. But now I have listened to 15 episodes in one day." Wow. Okay.
Ali
Wow. That's impressive.
Taimur
"Keep up the awesome work and never forget that we support you, peace, Ali and Taimur fam." Thanks a lot, Iosis. That's very nice.
Ali
That's very sweet. If you would like to have your review read that on the podcast then do please leave a review. There'll be a link in the show notes to the iTunes page. I think iTunes is the only place you can leave reviews of podcast.
Taimur
It's called Apple podcast now, but yeah.
Ali
Lame and out of touch, clearly. That phrase is gonna keep me up. (laughter)
Taimur
Add it to your Parent.
Ali
Yeah. It's already been added. It was added a long time ago, mate.
Taimur
I just have one final insight, which is that like, like, I watched, I am somewhat of a YouTube watcher. Like I watch somewhat of YouTube, mostly on the toilet and that kind of stuff. And it's nice that there's a centralized platform where like, you can comment on stuff, people can comment on stuff, you can reply to comments. You know, I think like having the centralized platform where people can actually have like a back and forth communication, or even just like a one way communication of like, Oh, my God, like, just make a joke about something. It's actually really cool. And I kind of thought that like, it not already the same with the podcast. So like, I imagine for you, you know, you when you make YouTube videos and stuff, you see the comments and stuff, and you probably respond to a few and so you..
Ali
Mate, I spent hours and hours and hours replying to comments.
Taimur
Wow
Ali
That's what I do on the toilet. I reply to comments. And still people DM me being like, "Ali, please check your DMs, Well, you know, seems like you've forgotten about your fans, because not replying to DMs". It's like..
Taimur
Guys I'm a big deal. Don't you get it?
Ali
Yeah, God. Don't you realize? I'm constantly on 99 plus requests on Instagram.
Taimur
But yeah, I imagine like for you on the YouTube thing, you have like a good sense of how people were responding to the content, like, you know, you have a sense of like what the community thinks and is about, whereas with the podcasts, I don't really like I have no sense of it at all. Like the podcast in my life is the two of us having a chat once a week. And, you know, maybe like every day or two, I read an email of someone saying like, I really like the podcast, and that's kind of nice. But apart from that, the podcast is basically for me, it's just like private discussions that we have. And I'm not really exposed to it's outside of that apart from when we get the occasional message and stuff.
Ali
So this is actually a good a good a very good reason to have to upload all of our back catalogue to YouTube.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. Oh, dude, why did we not think like..
Ali
We've been sort of talking about doing in the first few months. But we just never got around to it.
Taimur
We never thought of this as like the actual reason.
Ali
Yeah, as in like so you can sort of open more of a dialogue and people can actually comment and things.
Taimur
Yeah, I think like the comments thing is yeah, I think it's just cool for everyone involved.
Ali
I'm gonna make one right now. Have you made one already?
Taimur
My YouTube account?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
I had a YouTube account since '08
Ali
I've had one since '07. Okay, hang on. Let's make one for Not Overthinking right now. And I'll ask Liz to upload the back catalogue.
Taimur
Yeah, that'd be great. Because yeah, I imagine it's more fun for everyone else as well. Because if I imagine like YouTube not having comments, it would just be so much work. Like the first thing I do when I open a video is I scroll down and read the comments while the video is playing. And like there's just so much better than not having that. So yeah, I think this is very cool.
Ali
All right, we now have a not overthinking YouTube channel, which will be linked in the show notes. So do please leave a comment on this episode, if feel like it. That would would be good.
Taimur
Cool. Thanks a lot for listening and see you next week.
Ali
Bye. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum, question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@not overthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well. Tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter, please.