Toxic Productivity, Competition & Framing Work

Ali

My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and YouTuber.

Taimur

I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and writer.

Ali

And you're listening to Not Overthinking.

Taimur

The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.

Ali

Hello, and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you doing on this fine evening?

Taimur

I'm doing pretty decently. today. I had a really good morning. I recently invested in a pair of inline skates based off..

Ali

Inline skates.

Taimur

Yeah, like rollerblades, you know, based off of a conversation that two other people were having on Twitter, which rekindled my interest in roller skating. And so that I bought some roller skates on this guy's recommendation. I actually know this guy in real life. So we're friends. He's a podcast listener as well. And so yeah, on his recommendation, bought the skates went out today to skate for the first time. And it was great. It was just so so cool.

Ali

So what's the experience? Because last time I did, I tried rollerblading was when I was like 7. So like, what's it? Is it like ice skating now these days? Or what?

Taimur

It's like, yeah, I think it's like ice skating, the less smooth because obviously, like on you're not on ice. So but the ones the skates that I got are like optimized for the streets, in the mean streets of St. Alban's. And so it's kind of smoother on it's not terrible on like roads and things. And I found a nice, quiet, fairly smooth road on which I can like practice. It was just great. And I think just like starting the day with a bit of physical exercise in the outdoors when it's sunny. It just like put me in a good mood for the rest of the day. And I could feel like, I don't know, refreshed or something like I just felt I felt lighter, you know, for the rest of the day.

Ali

Oh, that's nice. What sort of stuff? Were you practicing on it?

Taimur

I was trying to learn how to do a parallel turn properly.

Ali

What does it parallel turn? Don't you just turn?

Taimur

Yeah, but there's a way to do it properly. And then once you can do that, then you can also stop properly by like spinning in a circle.

Ali

Oh, cool, rather than just like running into something.

Taimur

Yeah, it's really scary because there's actually not that many things to run into. Out in the wild. At one point, I was on an incline. I was going like downhill I had like nothing around me and I had no way of stopping. Yeah, that was a new thing in my life. How are you?

Ali

Oh, no, I'm very good. I've just had a very exhilarating kind of hour and a half. Sheen and I went for a little walk to the local shops to get some supplies for the older Ramadan. Stocking up on porridge and oats and all that kind of stuff. And then when I got back, I was like, you know what, I could do some work. Or I could log into World of Warcraft and see what's going on. And I logged in, and I saw that there were only like four of my guildies, guild members online. So I was like, okay, nothing's gonna happen. But then I noticed one of the guild members is a warrior who had posted in our Discord a few days ago saying that he was down like he's like very highly rated in 2v2 arena a while and he was saying that he enjoys playing with friends who have any guildies want him to help him out in arenas, then he'll play with them. And so I messaged him on while being like, hey, you know, I'm a Holy Paladin. I'm a healer. Do you want to do some arena 2v2? And he was like, yeah, sure. So we hopped on Discord. And we played I think like 25 games. And we ended up winning like 16 of them. And it was so exhilarating because it was like 2v2 PvP style. He's like, really good. And so even though I wasn't very good, he was semi carrying me. It was like that feeling of playing badminton doubles with someone is really good. It's not that I was contributing nothing. But the fact that he was so good, like really elevated my play as well. And so I guess out from like, you know, he's, we're both on 5% health and I pop the perfect abilities and we get back up or, you know, when someone dies, kinda, and I feed him a finishing blow while he's like stunned or something like that. Oh, it's such a great feeling. And obviously, he's doing the bulk of the work, but I get the bulk of the satisfaction. So that was really really really good. It's been so long since I've had that sort of video gaming experience. I just love it.

Taimur

That sounds awesome. Yeah, I think that I like the badminton doubles analogy. That's, something. Just speaking my language. I never did too much WOW arena stuff myself. So I didn't really empathize with that side of things. But that sounds like a lot of fun.

Ali

Yeah, dude, it was so good. And then, you know, this is why we're meant to record this podcast an hour ago. Can you allow me for an hour or so? Yeah, it worked out really nicely. Speaking of podcasts, I listened to a really good one yesterday. Do you know this guy called Tom Bilyeu?

Taimur

No.

Ali

He's got this podcast and this sort of whole media empire called Impact Theory. He's always in the top like 10 business podcasts on iTunes. You know, it's the same sort of stuff as like the Tim Ferriss show kind of vibes. And I've seen him around. He's got like, kind of 2 million subscribers on YouTube. So like, pretty big deal overall. I seem to have seen him. I've seen him around but never really seen any of his stuff. I just sort of lumped them in the category of you know, self help interview podcast. I suppose he is in a way but yesterday evening, I was listening to an episode of The Dave Asprey podcast. Dave Asprey is this dude who's big on like bio hacking and has another one of those like self help interview podcasts where he was interviewing Tom Bilyeu. And I was like, okay, let me find out what this guy's about. And he was sick. It was really, really good. A lot of interesting insights. Like this guy, Tom, he says the single best decision he ever made in his life was marrying his wife. And the second was like going into business with his wife. So he and his wife have been like business partners for 15 years now or something like that. So he had a lot of interesting things to say about like, how to make a relationship work. And I think one thing that was good about him and I think this is the mark of a good podcast guest in this sort of genre, is that they make very bold claims.

Taimur

Nice.

Ali

Very, very large oversimplifications. Like, you know, the host asked him what, what are three books you would recommend? Immediately, he said, you know, Mindset by Carol Dweck is the single most important book in the English language. Okay, so it's pretty strong statement. But yeah, I think I can get board with that. He said, he has this thing where he says something like, the single most important thought process you can have, or the single most important belief anyone can have is to have a growth mindset. And he's just like, very, very bullish on that. And just the conviction and simplicity with which he says all this stuff feels like, oh, this guy knows this stuff. Yeah. And there's none of this kind of caveats and hedging, and all this we often do. And just like, you know, say something, be bold about it. And everyone, like, I've been finding this when it comes to the book, book writing process, as well, where my book proposes a collaborator guy and my editor, keep on pushing back on me when I say that this claim feels too strong. And they say, that's like, look, when someone's reading a book, they will head for you, you don't need to, like when you make a strong claim, they will, you know, trust the reader to not be to not be dumb and not take a claim at face value. Yeah, I thought that was that was quite interesting. This Tom Bilyeu guy. I'm gonna check out more of his stuff.

Taimur

Nice. Was there any good insights from the relationships front?

Ali

Yes. So one thing that was that was very interesting was that he said that he and his wife, when they got into business together, they were like, okay, you know, he said to his lawyers, let's make it let's make this purely 50/50. Like their is, lawyers were like, someone needs to have 51% because it's so close. It's such a ball, like further down the line, if it's purely 50/50. He was like, no, it's going to be purely 50/50. We we want this to be as entangled as possible. But crucially, he said that he and his wife got together in the end, they decided that, okay, if there is ever a circumstance where despite communication, despite all the talking about it in the world, you and I have opposing viewpoints, we're going to go with my viewpoint. So Tom's, like he was going to have the deciding vote in every situation, given that he was like the kind of CEO guy. And he said that that decision made upfront, has solved sort of avoided tons and tons and tons of problems over the years, because everyone knows what their roles are. And even though they're 50/50, it's like, you know, he's still, he's got that decision making power in the domain side that he knows about in the domains that she knows about execution, he's more division goes, she is more the execution person, then she has authority, but he was like, you have to write all these out in advance. And then you've got to be like, well, if there's a gray area then who's gonna decide what, you know, whose gray area that fits in, it was interesting how systematic he was an intentional about this whole relationship thing. Because it can be tricky, apparently going into business with someone that you married to.

Taimur

Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. It's also common startup wisdom, where, you know, even if you have two equal co founders, you need to agree beforehand, who has the final say, basically, otherwise, you know, you're going to get into tough spots. Nice.

Ali

There are a few other things from this episode that I wrote down. So one thing that he said which, which sort of stuck with me was that every single weekday, if I'm awake, I'm either working or working out. Wow, it's like, okay, that's a lot. But his whole thing was very, like, it was very hustle culturey, but like, in a nice way, and that he was like, look, the weekends for work. And the weekend is for play. And I'm going to be intentional and efficient about all the things I want to do, because I want to be the next Walt Disney. And that requires, you know, hustling hard, and you know, getting my team of high performance and this sort of thing. And he was like, just very unapologetic about, like, you know, even if I'm on the toilet, I'm listening to a podcast or audiobook, if I'm eating, I'm listening to a podcast. And it's unusual to hear that in 2021, where at least the people I follow on Twitter have started to push back against this sort of narrative. Like, maybe it's not all about that. But I thought it was something very inspiring about how he was like, no, I've got my vision. This is what I'm going to do. The weekends are for fun. And the weekdays off purely for work and working out.

Taimur

That is very interesting. Yeah. It's not a very fashionable thing. I think it was saying that you work a lot. It's not a very fashionable thing or like advocating for working a lot is very unfashionable nowadays. So well on something.

Ali

This is something that Elizabeth and I have been talking about recently. So you're like in the sort of medic youtuber community of which, which has swelled in its ranks in the last few years, there is this ongoing debate like someone will post a 14 hour study with me video. And then someone on Twitter will screenshot the 14 hour study with me video saying this is wrong. This is what is wrong with the world. These metrics are promoting toxic productivity. And it's like a bizarre state of affairs where on the one hand, you're told to be authentic, and to be the real you. And if you're a medical student and a YouTuber, then obviously you do, you know, obviously, you hustle quite hard, because it's hard to be a medical student and a YouTuber and stuff at the same time. And people tell you, they want to see the real, the real you. And but as soon as you say that you work, or you kind of lost out on sleep, because you were busy editing a video or doing an essay or something, suddenly, the Twitter mob will come off to you for promoting bad mental health and promoting toxic productivity. And so it feels like you're allowed to be, you're told to be the authentic self, but only if the authentic self is kind of promoting all of the ideals that would like to espouse. Good work life balance and sleeping eight hours a day and not working beyond 5pm. And you know, that kind of vibe.

Taimur

That's so funny. Have you ever received accusations of promoting toxic productivity?

Ali

I'm sure I have. I don't see them very often. Because if someone is, if I'm being sub tweeted, it's rare that it gets back to me. There was that forum, which I haven't checked in several weeks. Yeah, so maybe there was stuff around toxic productivity there. But I don't know. I don't think I promote toxic productivity. Like my whole spiel is have fun, guys. Like, it's all good.

Taimur

Yeah, that is interesting.

Ali

Yeah, I think , I'm not really sure what to think on that. So the analogy that comes to mind is I you probably won't have seen but a few weeks ago, Dwayne The Rock Johnson tweeted that he was a photo of himself having cupping therapy. Cupping therapy is an alternative medicine thing where you they put cups on you and you end up with these like huge bruises. Allegedly, this was something that was used by the prophet peace be upon him back in the day and stuff. And so there's quite a lot of religious baggage associated with cupping around among some people. A lot of people view it as like, Oh my god, this is amazing. Michael Phelps apparently does it and thinks it's amazing. But so The Rock tweeted a photo of it. And one of my friends whose name is Rohan, who is another medic YouTuber. So he's like an actual doctor. Like a you know, I think nearly consultant cardiologist he's got a channel called MidLife Crisis, where he does like genuinely medical topics, rather than just generic productivity. He replied to The Rock saying, hey, great to see that you're taking your health seriously. But I'd be careful about promoting alternative medicine that doesn't have an evidence base. And he just posted that and you know, The Rock has zillions of replies to his tweets, The Rock replied to this guy's tweet saying something to the effect of, "Hey, man, I'm just sharing what I was doing. No need to hate on it. Like, you know, you do you, I'll do me that kind of thing. Good vibes all around" And then Rohan's point, which he replied, and then it's made a subsequent video about was yes you do you, but given that you have such a big platform, there is a level of responsibility on you to think about how even the stuff that you do, the stuff that you do implicitly promotes that stuff. And if you're implicitly promoting something that doesn't have any evidence, or around health care instead, like, around the sort of alternative medicine thing, that could be potentially problematic and, just think about it a little harder. And I was thinking about that when it comes to this kind of medic..

Taimur

Rohan didn't reply off to that?

Ali

No, he didn't reply for that, sadly. I think it's a good point. It's like this, this balance of, you know, let's say I work 18 hours a day, is it acceptable for me to make a vlog talking about how I work 18 hours a day, because it would promote people thinking that, oh, I should be working 18 hours a day, which is not generally the sort of advice I would want to give? Or what is that like? Deontology or something where it's like a work of kantian ethics, or it's, like, operate on the maxim that everyone will do the thing that you're doing. And if you'd be okay with everyone doing it, it makes it morally right. And if you wouldn't, it makes it morally wrong. It's like, it feels like there's an element of that, which comes up against the be yourself, show your authentic self, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I don't know.

Taimur

It is interesting, I think. I mean, I think when most people think about the Twitter mob and think about this stuff, it's sort of presented in a way that like, something has gone wrong. If this is where we're ended up where like, if you make a video about how you work 18 hours a day, then the 20 more goes off to you. And even when you're framing this discussion right now, you're framing it as if we're in some kind of failure mode here, where you sort of you can't be your authentic self. You know, the Twitter mob wants you to be your authentic self and then when you're authentic about certain things they're not a fan. I mean, there's also the possibility that this isn't a failure mode. And every, everything is working as intended. If people think you're doing something wrong, though, they'll call you out on it, and you can have a discussion about it, you can decide how to handle it. And something, you know, sometimes you will conclude, actually, the mob is correct. And I will no longer do this thing. And sometimes you will conclude, you know, screw the mob, and I'm gonna, you're gonna continue making these videos. And that seems like, it seems like a decent state of affairs like people getting back, having discussion. It's, like, not terrible.

Ali

Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not terrible. I think, generally, the Twitter mob is less about opening up a dialogue. And more about, you know, this is what is wrong with the world, sub-tweeting someone not tagging them not linking the video, so they won't even know that they're being talked about necessarily unless the one we'll be by the way, do you realize your video was screenshotted. And that tweet, which then somehow got like, 18,000 retweets from doctors all around the world? Okay. Like, that kind of thing isn't quite in the interest of promoting. Promoting dialogue. But no, I mean, it makes sense. It's totally reasonable for people to call someone out if they're, if they feel like what they're doing is.

Taimur

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I think the thing about the, I think the thing about the toxic productivity stuff, and I've talked about this before, is that people are coming from different starting points. You know, if you're someone who produces productivity related content, you know, just by virtue of that, you probably enjoy producing productivity related content, and you working 18 hours a day, is much more in line with you living your best life doing what you enjoy and flourishing in your own way. Compared to someone who is trying to force themselves to work 18 hours a day doing something that doesn't constitute them living their best life and flourishing in their own way. And, like, you know, this guy who wants to be in what was his name? The guy you mentioned at the start of the podcast?

Ali

Tom Bilyeu.

Taimur

Tom Bilyeu, yeah, dude probably loves it, dude's having a blast. He's living his best life. And I think the mistake is to take, you know, interpret things, I guess, at the wrong resolution, or whatever, or sort of, you know, you could interpret that and think, oh, man, this guy's, you know, advocating for everyone to, you know, even if you work at some random job that you don't like, he's saying that you should, like, work really hard during the week and then only chill on the weekends. That's not what he's saying. So, yeah, my issue with the productivity thing is that I think the people on whom it has more of a negative effect, you know, it's because you're trying to apply it o something that is to you very different or the productivity Guru is, is the t ing is to them. Do you know what I mean?

Ali

Yeah, but I guess the concern isn't, I guess it's like anything, where if you have a platform, and you're promoting a certain kind of lifestyle. Yes, you can say, hey, it's just me don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you what I do. But if you're like The Rock, for example, and you're saying how work 18 hours a day, a lot of people are going to be like, look, man, this is promoting bad mental health practices amongst the youth of today, even if it is just what he does. And he just friggin loves going to the gym all the time. But like that nuance is lost.

Taimur

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's fine. So right now, I'm making a comment on the people who watch these videos and feel bad. Okay? And there's a separate and I'm trying to say, this is, this is where that kind of missing the point, and kind of taking things in the wrong way. Right? So that's one thing. And then yeah, the other thing is, you know, if there are tangible negative effects of what you're doing, then you should probably think about it a bit. And, you know, caveat things, you know, say the start with video. Hey, man, I'm Dwayne The Rock Johnson. And maybe there is, there is a need for some caveats as.

Ali

How did we go into this? Oh, Tom Bilyeu stuff, yeah. So that was interesting. He had a few other nuggets that I wrote down. One of them was, I guess, kind of like, I written down on the big word, but he apparently often asked himself, do I meet the minimum requirements for this, this thing that I'm trying to do? And if I do, then I'm going to act as if I can be literally the best in the world at this thing that I'm trying to do. And so it's sort of like growth mindset, but with a level of realism applied. Like, you know, if you're a four foot eight, you probably don't meet the minimum requirements to join the NBA. Therefore, like, you know, however much you try, you're not going to make it into the NBA. And so I thought this was, this was interesting. For he's one it's like, do I meet the minimum requirements? Am I at minimum smart enough to potentially be as successful as Walt Disney? Like, I'm not smartest in the world. But yeah, I think I meet the minimum requirements. Now everything else is skills to be learned on top of that. So everything skills in managing companies skills and business building business community, blah, blah, blah. It's all stuff. Once you've taken that minimum threshold thing, I thought that was interesting, because I hadn't come across the minimum threshold model before. You know, the other one was, there was a thing that is, which is, which was interesting. He was like, Yes, a pig is never going to become a racehorse. But with enough training, it can be a pretty damn fast pig. And I really like that one as well. I think that was a nice quippy defense against the I think there's amongst the people who don't kind of live and breathe this sort of personal development stuff. There is a false assumption that.. Yeah, for example, like the 10,000 hour rule, which is supposed to be for kind of achieving mastery, like World Class mastery in anything, where people will kind of dismiss it be like, oh, I don't have the raw talent to be like world class at this thing. Therefore, I'm not going to try. But you can still be kind of top 1% on basically anything, regardless of what the raw talent is, if you just try hard enough at it. So I like this kind of fast pig versus racehorse kind of metaphor.

Taimur

I'm not a huge fan of the framing of any of these things, to be honest.

Ali

Yeah, it's got a very kind of competitive kind of framing.

Taimur

Yes. And, yeah, I often hear people expressing some kind of sentiment of like, you know, this thing is only worth doing or worth trying out. If I can get really, really good at it relative to other people. And I don't want to do things that I, you know, that I won't be really, really good at relative to other people kind of thing. And yeah, this whole competition thing. Man, I really don't know where I stand on competition. I think it's like..

Ali

Also, I think your camera's gone blank.

Taimur

No, it hasn't.

Ali

Is it not? Okay, just my [...] weird. What do we need to know where you stand on this competition?

Taimur

Yeah, I think competition is like 90%. problematic. But there is some there is there's some kind of it. That is maybe okay. Yeah, I'm really not a fan of competition in general. And I think it's, it's always a bit iffy if someone describes themselves as very competitive. I can't, I struggle to think of a wholesome way to be competitive. Yeah, I just think like a mindset of competition is very, very, very rarely coming from a good place. What do you think? I think it's all in you know, it's coming from a place of like, A, just like view, viewing your comrades as adversaries of like, oh, my need to be better than these people or whatever. Or it could be coming from a place of like, I want social validation by external attributes about myself, which I think will make people like me more. Or it's coming from a place of I will be okay. If, you know, like, I really struggled to imagine competitiveness coming from a good place. Now, I think that the exception is, I think, in the realm of games, you know, like sports, for example. I think, in a, when the setup is deliberately a competition, and everyone is opting in to compete with one another for a sport, I mean, sport in pretty broad terms, then I can maybe get on board with it. And I think that can be done in a way. And that can be approached in a way that is, that is good. But outside the very narrow confines of literal competitive events, I think, yeah, just approaching things from a lens of competition, and then sort of being competitive about things. I struggle to see it coming from a good place.

Ali

Do you struggle to see it coming from a good place if Jeff Bezos is like, I want Amazon to be the biggest retailer in the world.

Taimur

Yeah, I don't know. I think yeah, goals is another thing. I think we touched on this. We talked about goals. At one point, I can't remember, if we had Mac on the podcast for this, this was just a conversation I had with Mac. So Mac, who's been a guest on podcast a few times, you know, he's really into sports. So it's like cycling Iron Man that kind of thing. And a big part of that is, I mean, like he enters competitions for this stuff. And so he has goals, like, you know, I want to qualify for whatever tournament this year that kind of, you know, that kind of thing, or like, I want to get to a certain position in this tournament or something. And I think, I think if, you know, if Jeff Bezos says I want Amazon to be the biggest retailer in the world, I think it's a different kind of it's qualitatively different from you know, I want, I want to come top of my year and my exams or, you know, I want to be better than the Jones'. You know what, I don't know, I don't know what what do people compete on these days? I want to be better at so and so on the musical instrument or like, I want to, you know, whatever.

Ali

What if it's I want to be better than Jones' because I want to learn that promotion, to become partner. And there's only one of them going, therefore, I need to be better than these other five candidates that are applying for the same thing.

Taimur

All right. Yeah, sure. But that is a sort of specifically constructed competition that you are in for this one job or whatever, right? Like, it's..

Ali

I mean, for example, what are you thinking of where there, where there's not a specially construct? I mean, I want to rank first in the group, because I want the gold medal prize, and it'll be good to my CV, and it'll be fun, fun little challenge. Let's give it a go.

Taimur

Yeah, I mean, look, it comes down to like, why do you want the gold medal prize? You know, and again, I think, in that question I struggled to imagine it coming from a good place most of the time.

Ali

What do you mean like a good place like? Yes, sure. So you're saying, if you want a certain accolade, the chances are, it comes from a place of insecurity where you feel like you're not enough without the accolade.

Taimur

I think there's a good chance of that. There's a good chance that comes from a sort of, like a zero sum mindset, not doing..

Ali

What do you mean zero sum mindset?

Taimur

Sorry?

Ali

What do you mean by that?

Taimur

Like, a mindset of one person can only succeed at the cost of someone else, like not succeeding or whatever, right? Like, I just really struggle to imagine it coming from a good place.

Ali

I mean, I think so your broad point is, in general, competition equals bad because I struggle to see it coming from a good place.

Taimur

Yeah, I think, a competitive mindset, or mindset of competition is bad, most of the time, outside the confines of like a competition. You know, and it's tricky, because I do think, you know, pursuing excellence, you know, pursuing excellence in something, I think is good, it's good, it's to be encouraged. But it shouldn't come from a place of, I want to pursue excellence in this thing, so that I can beat other people in this thing, so that other people will like me, or think I'm a worthy human being, or whatever, right? I can feel like, you know. I think there is a there is a healthy way to pursue excellence. But I think, but that's excellence for from a mindset of competition. I don't know if the same [...]

Ali

I think your broader beef is with the idea of doing anything, or having any sort of mindset, or just any kind of mindset is bad. Any kind of mindset where there is a level of wanting our internal self esteem to come from an external factor. So you can say the same thing about what's the real reason why you want to buy an Apple Watch, if the real reason is because you want to signal your identity to yourself and others, that's probably a bit problematic. Equally, what's the real reason for taking part in this competition? Is it because you want to signal your status to others in some way by winning, that's probably problematic. I think your beef isn't with the competition. It's with any realm in which the reason for doing the thing is because you're coming from a place of I will be okay If this, if I get I get this.

Taimur

Yeah. Correct. And I think probably like 60% of competitive mindset stem from that.

Ali

Okay, that's a hugely arbitrary kind of,

Taimur

Fine 50 to 70.

Ali

Okay, whatever. Yeah, fine. I mean, I don't like to [...] other people mindsets.

Taimur

Sorry, what?

Ali

I don't like to opine about other people's mindsets around certain things. Unless it's a field in which I have enough data points to have a reasonable read on, okay, I've spoken to like 30 people about this thing, and like 28 of them feel this way about competition. I just don't have that data around the idea of competition.

Taimur

I don't think this is a problem of data. Alright. Just provide me a theory or just like, give me one possible, some possible explanations for.

Ali

Okay, winning, winning a competition, even if it's not explicitly a competition, the beating of other people in insert domain here leads to better life outcomes for myself. I think that makes up a huge chunk of the things like for example..

Taimur

Okay, dude, like what? Okay, better, better life outcomes for myself, could mean a million things like, you know, 80% sorry, 70% to 90% better outcomes for myself are, you know, stem from my parents will think better of me, people will value me more highly, you know, all this kind of stuff. Like better outcomes for myself is kind of begging the question I'm trying to get at, like, you know, what is it that..

Ali

Will lead to it, will be more likely to lead to an increase in my salary.

Will be more likely to lead to an increase in my salary, or will be

Taimur

Sorry? more likely to lead to an increase in the opportunities that I'm afforded, will be more likely to lead to an increase in people wanting me as a guest on their podcast. The example I'm thinking of in my head is this thing about my goal of wanting to hit the New York Times list with wit this book that I'm writing, which isn't, which is not from a place of, you know, I will be okay, if I hit this goal. And without hitting this, I feel like inferior and myself is literally that hitting this list will actually be interesting for my life. Because of the opportunities that come that are associated with that. And in a way that isn't an arbitrary competition, where you have to kind of be in the top 10 nonfiction hardback books sold that week, but I'm pretty sure the place is coming from is not a place of competition. Like I'm not even thinking about the other competitors in the field. What I'm thinking about is.. And then why are you viewing this as an example of me hogging against competition if you don't actually do it as a competition? Because it is a competition.

Sorry?

Ali

Because it is a competition, I want to hit the list is an implicit, like it's a competition.

Taimur

Certainly the way you're presenting it is not, it's a competition, for example, you know, suppose that you needed to, you know, get some minimum grade in your university degree to then like, you know, qualify for some job or something. It's like, I wouldn't say that's like a competitiveness, it's really a sort of, you don't need a competitive mindset to decide that okay, I need to, like, get this minimum grade. So then get this job. That's kind of how you're presenting this New York time thing of like, Oh, you know, if I want to, you know, my career as a creator or whatever, you know, I make my money going on podcasts and stuff like this. And, you know, me having extra accolades helps with that. Like, I think the book thing is, I mean, it's just, it's just a weird example.

Ali

Let me give you another one. In in third year, I decided that I really wanted to try and rank first in the year group, when I was doing psychology, I don't think I had a competitive mindset around it, I had more of a mindset of it would be cool to try and go for this gold medal thing. And I know there's a prize associated with it. And I actually don't care what other people are doing. I'm not trying to beat other people. I'm just trying to get to as close to 100% as possible myself, like I didn't. During that kind of competition. I didn't want to think, Oh, I wonder what other people are doing. Other than when I was in the exam hall. And it was like me and me and this other girl. Were the ones who had the most paper written in the exam were like, Oh, interesting. Again, is that like, does that not count as competition? Because I wasn't thinking about the end the competitors, and instead just thinking, how can I get as close to 100% as possible?

Taimur

I don't know, man, you tell me like, yeah, if what you're saying is true, then, you know, this doesn't seem sort of like a competitive thing. I was thinking a decent chance you're deceiving yourself about like, Oh, no, I just did for the bands kind of thing. Like, I don't know if I'll take your word for it. But based on what you're saying, yeah I don't think doesn't seem like a competition thing. If that's what you're saying.

Ali

So give me an example of, give me an example of yourself or someone that you know where there is a competitive mindset, which is coming from a bad place.

Taimur

Look, it's hard for me, I think it's a stretch for me to specifically say that someone else's competitive mindset is coming from a bad place. The point I'm making is the wider structural issue here. And so I'm not gonna say that like oh, my mate Bob, right? He's got a prepared mindset to come from a bad place. I'm not going to say anything like that. But I certainly know people who strongly dislike losing at anything. You know, probably doesn't come from a good place, certainly know people who you know, I think.

Ali

I mean, I just like losing when I'm playing an arena in World of Warcraft. I think that comes from a bad place.

Taimur

Sorry?

Ali

I just like losing when I'm in a to 2v2 arena match.

Taimur

Yeah, I deserve my place on this planet.

Ali

if I can continue my yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Probably not a particularly good place to.

Taimur

Yeah. It's that kind of stuff that I'm talking about. And yeah, look at university. There were plenty of people who definitely had this sort of competing as other people sort of mindset of like, I mean, very concretely, there are things like, I'm not going to share my notes with people doing the same subjects as me. I really can't imagine that coming from a good place. And the other point I was making was that, and actually, I guess, partly why I feel semi strongly about this is that competitiveness is often presented as like a positive thing. It's like, you know, people take pride in being competitive. You know, we were talking about, like Tinder tropes, or dating app tropes, one dating app tropes. And one of the prompt of it is like, I'm overly competitive about x, you know. And one, like, really common thing that I have seen people write in their profiles is, I'm overly competitive about everything. And, yeah, it's like, it's something people take a little bit of pride in. It's seen as, like, kind of a good thing to be competitive. And that's what I'm trying to push back against.

Ali

Yeah, fair, I can get on board with that.

Taimur

Yeah, I really can't see it coming from a good place most of the time. And like, Look, it certainly leads to good outcomes. Like if you know, if you hear the way, a lot of very, quote unquote, successful people talk about things. There's definitely a large element of having a chip on your shoulder early on in life, and feeling like you have something to prove, and literally and I can be okay if kind of thing, like, so many of you will have it. And I think that's partly why the competitiveness thing is kind of seen as a good thing. Because, yes, like, it does lead to externally better outcomes. Like if you, if you are a very competitive person, you will probably try harder at certain things, you will, you're probably, you're potentially more likely to succeed in whatever thing you're trying to do. Because you care about beating other people. And so I think that's why it's seen as kind of a positive thing, because a lot of the successful people are very competitive, and it's probably contributed to their success. But my point is, that I doubt it comes from a good place. And I'm sure there is a wholesome way to get that motivation in the pursue excellence.

Ali

Fair Play. I can get on board with that.

Taimur

Yeah, that's my spiel on competition. I also had a thought recently about work. I found myself, I think yesterday, yeah, probably like yesterday slash today, feeling a general sense of kind of, like, oh, man, I need to do I need to like, do some work, you know, I have a lot of work to do. I need to do some work. Can you ever feel that way?

Ali

Yes. I'm very interested in what you're about to say, because this is the sort of stuff I'm into. This feeling of I have to do work interesting. Tell me more.

Taimur

Yeah. So I felt this feeling of, I have to do some work. And that sort of, that sort of sounded the problematic alarm in my head. That sounded the

Ali

That's interesting. That's a good insight. problematic alarm in my head. And, I mean, I've talked about similar things before where I think it's easy to get caught up in the feeling of doing work and the idea of getting work done and not actually achieving the outcomes you care about. And so I felt myself thinking, oh, man, I've got so much work to do, I need to do like some, a lot of work this weekend, or whatever. And that kind of came with this sort of level of, okay, and kind of some sort of negative feelings of like, anxiety or whatever that like, I have all this work to do. And, and then I thought, like, why am I framing it as like, I have to do work. And then I, what I and then I kind of thought that yeah, yeah, framing it as like, work in the abstract, I think is why my problematic alarm bells went off because I think work in the abstract. Like thinking about anything as work in the abstract. [...] Well, yeah. This, like so much baggage associated with it, that like you, if you're ever thinking about work in the abstract, you're just screwing yourself, I think. And so then I kind of thought, okay, why am I thinking about it as work in the abstract? What do I actually have to get done? And then I thought, Oh, yeah, I need to finish our sort of revamped marketing sites for Causal this weekend. And I thought, you know, that's actually really fun. Like, that is like, right on my street, that is my jam. You know, like, and then when I thought, Okay, I need to finish the marketing side this weekend, they didn't have the feelings of anxiety and like, oh, man, I have to work, out a feeling of like, oh, cool, you know, this is like, this is the thing I'm into, you know, like, why would I feel bad about this? And so I think the insights, if

Taimur

What do you reckon? Now tell me what book you read this in, [...] you will, the concrete takeaway is that thinking about work as an abstract concepts, and framing anything as work as an abstract, in the abstract, is bad. And if you think about what you're actually trying to achieve and what you actually need to do or whatever, then I think your feelings towards the thing will be very different. came up with this in 2018.

Ali

This was going to be #OC.

Taimur

Wait, what?

Ali

This was going to be original content. So I've got a chapter in the book around mindset surrounding work. Where about this thing of feeling as if we, I mean, there's a few different things here. It's like, yes, I agree the general abstract notion of work just feels a bit grim. And yeah, it's like, I often have that like, slight surprise, when, for example, I'm doing something on the computer at like 11pm. And Sheen asks me, why are you working so late? And the framing of that question always surprises me a little bit because, like, oh, am I working? Oh, I guess this is work. But it's just not how I consider it when I'm doing it. And actually, like, this weekend, I also had a thing of, okay, I need to work on Sunday. And then I like literally..

Taimur

In the abstract?

Ali

In the abstract. And then literally, this morning, I had the thought that, no, I shouldn't think of it as work like, what do I actually need to do I need to all I want to kind of do a, do another draft of chapter one of the book and then I'm going to film this video around passive income. That's pretty fun. That was like my exact thought process this morning. I think it's sort of like, one thing I often advise students when it comes to is like, like, I need to study chemistry feels like, I feel really bad. But I need to do some questions at the end of chapter one feels like very, very reasonable. It's like when you actually know what you have to do. It's like when you don't have clarity. Clarity is the thing. Anytime there is an item on the on the to do list that doesn't have clarity, it is a total, it really, really sucks. And this is why no one studies on it. I have to tell you today is that okay well, if you if you just define what you actually are going to do, it would be a lot more fun. So work is kind of I have to study chemistry. But like one layer abstracted from that I have to work tonight. Yeah, it just makes it feel awful. The other thing that ties in with this, which I think about a lot is have to versus get to. I think like when you're like when you think oh, I have to work and there's like Oh, actually I get to revamp the Causal marketing site. That's kind of fun. Like, I often, like deliberately use that shift. [...] Literally in front of my monitor, saying this is going to be fun. And anytime I just it's like, you know, it's been there for a couple weeks now. But anytime I just read that I just think this is gonna be fun. But I just like automatically like, oh, yeah, I am actually having a good time. One of the things to remind myself to enjoy the things that I'm doing.

Taimur

Yeah, I think in addition to like, the feeling thing, it also, you know, if you consider what you're doing to be, I don't know, I have to study in the abstracts, or I have to work in the abstract, then your compass will be pointed towards feeling like you're studying in the abstract and feeling like you're working in the abstract. Whereas if the thing in your head is, I need to like do X, I need to do this specific thing or need to like, accomplish this specific thing, then your compass will be pointed towards doing that specific thing. And I feel like you're much less likely to get caught up in the sort of in work theater or study..

Ali

Theater of work. Yeah.

Taimur

Yeah, I feel like study theater. I think we've talked about it. I think study theater was a big thing at school and university. I where I think there was a general sense of oh, man, I study in the abstract. In the abstract is like, like, no one's actually thinking about their head.

Ali

[...] Ridiculous this thing is.

Taimur

Anytime you think of the word, think of the idea of work or study it. Like, you have to add it. How stupid does that sound? (laughs)

Ali

I'm gonna work in the abstract tomorrow.

Taimur

I love it. Yeah, that was my, that's my productivity advice for the year.

Ali

Excellent. Please do keep it coming. This is a good photo for the book.

Taimur

Nice. Cool, I think we should wrap things up there cuz I do actually need to work in the abstract.

Ali

Great. I need to write my newsletter in the abstract. I've been slacking on the newsletter front a bit, I just can't be bothered to bring him and maintain consistency with it anymore. Yeah. I think the the issue there is that, like all of the writing that I'm doing is for the book these days. And so in a way I don't want to, I suppose actually I could just put segments on the newsletter. To see how they learned, that'd be easy to read. It feels like for the past few months, it's about like when I need to do a newsletter issue it's like, oh, I need to do this extra thing. I really want to do this extra thing, but the only reason I'm doing it because it's a means to an end of building the list. But if I have a more concrete, I wrote some stuff around chapter one today, chuck into newsletter format, copy and paste. Send it out. Yeah, people like it.

Taimur

Like, you know how I process it. It's all about repurposing content for different platforms.

Ali

Really? Oh, tell me more.

Taimur

All right, we'll wrap things up there. I'll read out a review. This is a five star review from [...] in the United States. It's entitled my Favorite Waste Man pod. Oh, this is Paul, this our good friend Paul [...]. Paul says, was on the pod once and it was grand. I challenged Ali to take a week off from YouTube. And I think he actually increased his output after our chat. Incredible. Now to listen to the pod, Taimur makes me message him every time I hear his voice, quite needy, but worth fries. Good pod. Thank you. Thank you, Paul, for the review.

Ali

Good stuff, Paul. Yeah, I think Paul was the first person to suggest that I can take a break from my newsletter. And now I've really, I've taken many breaks on my newsletter. Thank you for that, Paul, if you're listening. The other thing is I need a brand name for my stationery brand. Do you? What should I call it?

Taimur

Why don't the listeners send in their suggestions?

Ali

Good idea, guys. I'm making a stationary brand. I want to sound cool. If you have any thoughts, email them or tweet them or comment under the YouTube video. I actually have like 1000s of suggestions because I posted on Instagram and Twitter and YouTube community posts. I literally have 1000s and 1000s to choose from. One that I particularly like, is Vitals. I think Vitals is a nice name.

Taimur

That's cool.

Ali

Problem with Vitals, it kind of takes itself quite seriously. But, you know, it sort of works on those two levels. I mean, like the Vitals notebook, Vitals pen, Vitals post it note that that kind of thing. I'm sure we can do like a cool logo around that maybe with a sort of a nod to the medicine thing. I've been thinking about like waste man or something like that. I think that's trying too hard to be funny.

Taimur

Yeah. All right. Good stuff. Thank you all for listening. And see you next week.

Ali

See you next week. Goodbye. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.

Taimur

If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.

Ali

If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.

Taimur

Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.

Ali

If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well. Tweet or dm us @noverthinking on Twitter, please.