Trying to be Confidently Wrong

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
25.Jan.2021

Ali
My name is Ali. I'm a doctor and youtuber
Taimur
I'm Taimur. I'm a data scientist and write
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hello and welcome back to Not Overthinking. Taimur, how are you
Taimur
Doing great man. We had our first proper snow here in [UNCLEAR] doing today? today. It was looking so nice. It was like sick. went out for a walk with with our mom. That was nice. went out for my daily walk in the snow as well. Yeah, it was just looking so magical, like the snowflakes were huge. We've got these really nice sort of really tall pine trees and conifers which you know, look like Christmas trees. Yeah, it was just looking really lovely. So that was nice. It's been a good week, generally as well. So last night, we had the second the second ever Not Overthinking members Zoom calls. So if in case you missed it, we now have a Not Overthinking members community. There's about 60 people in the slack group right now. And last night, we had a member Zoom call about 23 people on the call. And it was just like a chill hangout. So the week before, we did much more structured, much more regimented call where you were taking us through, like how to do a weekly review. And we were all kind of doing a weekly review together. And then this time, we thought, okay, let's like make it more free flowing. And just yeah, just hang out and chat about stuff. And I think it worked really well. I mean, I had a really good time. Yeah, I think people seem, you know, really engaged, I'd say like, out of the 23 probably like, somewhere between 10 and 15 people spoke at least once. And then there was a core of like, six to 10 people that were sort of speaking fairly frequently during the discussion. Does that seem about right to you?
Ali
Yeah. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by how free how well, everything flowed in a free flowing discussion. I think 23 was a good number of people. There's a Dunbar limit to the size of a Zoom call, but I don't think..
Taimur
Yeah, I wonder how it would have worked if there were more people. But I think Yeah, there was like, it was a good amount of people to be able to have like a discussion where lots of people will actually participating. And you know, other people will like typing on the chats. And that was sort of like a slightly different thread of conversation about the same topic. Yeah, it was just really cool setup. I just thought it was like, so cool to be sitting in my room, and just hanging out with a bunch of random people around the world. And you know, just having a great time for a couple of hours on a Saturday. It was sick. It was magical.
Ali
Yeah, man. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it as well, because initially my calendar was like, uh, you know, this is an hour like, what are we going to do for an hour? But then, you know, the hour passed, and it was into hour two and was like, oh, there's actually quite a pleasant way to yeah, Saturday evening.
Taimur
Yeah. So I think that was great. Yeah, we're still figuring out like, you know exactly how the community should work. But I think these weekly Zoom calls are pretty good. I think people enjoyed it. So we'll probably do one of those every week. We've also now decided on a transcription service for the podcast. And so very soon, we should have all the episodes properly transcribed with sort of nice interactive show notes where you can kind of click, you know, click on a paragraph and hear that person, say it out loud, and all this kind of stuff. And sort of do a full text search on the whole sort of Corpus. So you can search for a word like kids or something. And you'll see like all the mentions of kids in all the episodes, and you can kind of yeah, make sense of things that way. So that should be pretty cool as well for members.
Ali
Yeah, I wonder how much people actually read transcriptions of podcasts. Like I almost never reached Tim Ferriss's or enough sign up to [UNCLEAR] transcripts. Again, never read them, but I guess it's a service for some people.
Taimur
Yeah, I mean, I think it could be interesting if, I think highlights from podcasts are useful. So I use an app called Air Audio, to take like 15 second highlights. To be fair, I actually have never gone through the highlights, but I like that they exist. And if that's something that was somehow synced up to my read wise, which resurfaces highlights every day, I think that'll be really valuable. And yeah, if there was a way you know, if there was like a particularly good part of a podcast episode, if there was a way you could like add it to your instapaper or like, highlight it and send it to Readwise or something. I think that would be pretty interesting.
Ali
Yeah, yeah, definitely
Taimur
But I'm not sure how that actually works. We'll see work in progress. And then the final big change in my life is that I now have an I have a painting in my room you can see it in the background if you're watching this on YouTube. And I have a sofa in my room as well. That's what I'm sitting on if you're watching this on YouTube, and so now have upgraded my Zoom setup where I'm just sitting on a sofa got a nice kind of background going on kind of good vibes yeah, I'm happy with it. What do you think?
Ali
I think looks pretty good. Have you had many compliments from people on the internet about it?
Taimur
I mean the sofa the sofa and painting background has only been here since yesterday. But yeah all of this week like I upgraded to the fancy camera and fancy mic for Zoom calls for over the past like two weeks or something and yeah, I find it's a good icebreaker usually like on a calls people will open with like oh man like love your setup, man. Like what is that funny thing?
Ali
Yeah, find that's usually do I might go to icebreaker be like, Oh, I'm loving that shelf in the background. And that's a good way of like easing into the Zoom call.
Taimur
Yeah. How's your week been?
Ali
I think it's been pretty good. I can't quite remember what's happened this week. I feel like was this the week where we launched Part-Time Youtuber Academy on YouTube? Oh, yeah, we launched a Part-Time Youtuber Academy on Monday morning, Monday afternoon at 4pm. And we decided to cap it at 200 people for cohort too, and we doubled the prices. And I thought, okay, you know, I was thinking in the shower that morning that if we can get over all 50 people in the cohort, that would be great. We were going to have the cart open for three weeks. And for most of early January, I was semi stressing out about, you know, all of the different marketing content we were going to be putting out and, you know, putting content out on the socials each day and creating like an email funnel and marketing automation list. And then I was in the middle of a Zoom call when 4pm hit and the cart opened. And it's just started getting messages on Slack from Angus and Elizabeth being like, Oh my God, have you seen how many sales we've got? Oh, well, we sold out of the first 100 in seven minutes. And we sold out of the next 100 within like the next three hours and have to have bloody hell like all this. Sort of, I'd built up the Oh, my God, like, fell in my head for so long. And was like the only thing that I was, like, I don't have a lot of stress in my life. But this was a source of minus stress that are we gonna sell enough seats for this to be legit. We just sold out immediately. So that was really quite nice. And yeah, it was, it was good. Because as the sales were coming in, we, Angus, and Elizabeth hopped on a Zoom call that had just posted in the Slack. And we were just like, oh my god, and you know, refreshing the page together. It was quite wholesome.
Taimur
That sounds like great vibes. Wait. So how did was that like a waiting list where people will be notified once it opens or something. And so people were just signing up off the waiting list or what?
Ali
think about 4000 people on it saying cards [UNCLEAR] And just like they just got snapped up absolutely, instantly. It's been pretty good.
Taimur
So when's the cohort kicking off?
Ali
Cohort's kicking off mid February. So the challenge now is that, you know, we we've still got another three weeks to go until mid February. So we want to keep the momentum going while it's still high. And we're thinking about how do we really make this like as fantastic and experience for the students as possible. And one thing I was thinking is that, you know, if we have a cohort of like 300 peoples, or 200 new students and maybe 100, returning students, it would be nice if we can break them up into, like, you know, into like groups of between 20 and 30. And have one person on the team and be responsible for a group kind of like the college system, whereby we track the data, and are they doing the homework. And are they attending the Zoom sessions, and we actively reach out to people And we got loads of replies from people being like, Oh, my God, thank you so who are in danger of falling off. Because a big part in an online course, like this is actually in the accountability and the community. If they do the work, they will get enormous value out of it. But if they don't, then they won't get any value out of it. And they're going to feel bad for not having done the work. And so we're trying to create a system where we can kind of outreach, sort of in my head, I call it our "No Child Left Behind Policy." whereby we can outreach to people who, for example, haven't finished homework assignment number one be like, hey, everything, okay, anything we can help with? And we did. And we did some of those in the last cohort halfway through. much for reaching out. And you know, honestly, it's not you, it's me, you know, my kids have just been crazy. And therefore, I haven't had the time to film the videos and stuff. But there were a few people who were like, Oh, actually, you know, the thing that's holding me back is not knowing what my niche is. And then that's a very easy problem that we can solve. Yeah. So it's that stuff we're trying to do now just to make the experience as great as it can be. Yeah, part of me is thinking that you know, what, next time, why don't we just not cap the cohort size. Because really, like if we can create solid systems to keep track of all the students this time around, then even if we have 1000 people in a cohort, all that requires is to hire a few more people on the team to kind of manage the system. And there's no reason why we should cap the cohort to 200. So yeah, it's all fun and games ready.
Taimur
Yeah, that sounds sick. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Ali
Yeah, I guess kind of on. Apart from that, it's just really kind of focusing on trying to write the book. And so I've been doing lots of informal chats and formal interviews with people who think a lot about meaning and purpose and productivity and things. And anytime I have a phone call with someone, I always think this has been a really useful phone call to have. And, you know, just sort of shaping of the argument in the book.
Taimur
Why are you stressed out about whether enough people would sign up to the YouTuber Academy?
Ali
I think I still have a fear of selling the fear of being like, you know, it went well last time. What if that was just fluke, and we're increasing our prices significantly. So what if at this price point no one's gonna buy because they won't see the value in it? And yeah, I think it just is it's a throwback to when I was selling packs of bowl tickets in my third year of union 2015. thinking, oh my god, I'm selling snake oil here. And I think it's, it just feels it feels hard to get over that, that fear of what if? What if no one buys from us? And so I was doing the usual like, mental shenanigans of well, you know, even if we had like five people, that would still be a good experience, and it would still be fun and stuff.
Taimur
What's the actual fear if no one buys? Like, you know, it's not like you need this to pay the bills?
Ali
No, yeah, it's not. It's not I think it's more that's, for example, if we sell out a cohort, we make half a million pounds. And then just having having that in my head is like, you know, this is a remote possibility. Means that it's like, you know, we don't need the money to pay the bills. But when, and this is partly why I am not, I'm not too good at setting goals or thinking about outcomes, is that I feel like if we didn't hit that, then I would feel disappointed. It's like, you know, let's try and let's try and get as close as possible to that and you know, in the shower that morning thinking, well, if we can get 50 that's still like a, you know, it's still a relatively profitable course, etc, etc.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's interesting. Wait, one sec, I'm just gonna switch to my other Wi Fi.
Ali
You have two WiFi's? That's very upwardly socially mobile.
Taimur
All right, we're back.
Ali
So what are we talking about this week?
Taimur
One thing that's kind of been on my mind that I've been thinking about.
Ali
Are you on? Are you on your proper microphone or are you on AirPods?
Taimur
I am on my proper microphone.
Ali
Okay, cool. That's fine. It sounds a bit weird to my ears. But maybe cuz I'm on AirPods. But yeah, sorry, continue.
Taimur
One thing that I've been thinking about recently, is that it's kind of related to hedging. You know, we've talked about, you know, always, I think when I talk, I'm like, constantly hedging. I'm constantly, you know, trying to make sure that I'm not making any kind of strong claims or strong statements, and I'll use words like might or possibly, and some people rather than people, and, you know, all of this kind of stuff. To sort of, yeah, I guess to sort of express a level of epistemic humility, you know?
Ali
What does epistemic mean?
Taimur
Sorry?
Ali
What does epistemic mean?
Taimur
Like, you asked us every episode, knowledge and stuff.
Ali
okay, sorry, I'm not very epistemic.
Taimur
So, like epistemic humility would be kind of recognizing that, you know, the things that, yeah, it's kind of about, like, recognizing the limits of your knowledge and the, you know, the limits of your own, of what you can know, and perceive and things like that, right?And so, this came up in a discussion with Lucas, my co founder. Where, you know, with causal, we have a certain approach, building a very general number crunching tools, and all that stuff, there are a few products that are not directly competing with these things yet, but there are a few products that are trying to solve some of the same problems, but with a different approach. For example, their approaches, it's not, the details aren't too important, but their, their approach is different. And I think I have pretty strong conviction that their approach is wrong, that our approach is, right. And in the past, if I was having this discussion, I would have like, you know, done the whole hedging thing where it's like, you know, based on what we've seen, you know, I think their approach, you know, might run into x, y and z issues possibly. And you know, I feel like our approach you know, all of this kind of stuff, but I decided to stop talking like that a few weeks ago instead, I just you know, was a lot more direct about like, right they're [UNCLEAR] is obviously wrong. They get it they're about to spend the next five months learning x, y, z which we already know to be true. And our approach is right, for these reasons, kind of thing. And Lucas thought that was me being yeah, like arrogant or something. And not appropriately accounting for the uncertainty in my beliefs. Which is fine.
Ali
The irony.
Taimur
Yeah. And, I think a few months ago, like yeah, even even as, as recently as a few months ago, I would have been Lucas in that discussion. If someone had like said those things. I would have been like, No, man, you need some epistemic humility. Like you don't know that there's uncertainty, all this kind of stuff. But now I just, I just don't care for it. And I think the epistemic humility stuff is good. I don't think I've like let go of that. I still I think I still have that. But I think there is something to be said for having actual conviction in things. And not like falling prey to not like drowning in the uncertainty of the world where you feel you don't feel like you can make any kind of you know, substantial statements about how the world works. Right? And there were a couple of articles I read recently related to this. Well, actually, one was a tweet by Agnes Callard, who else? About, let me find it actually.
Ali
It kind of reminds me of the whole strong opinions loosely held kind of vibe.
Taimur
Yes. Yeah. I think it's related to that. Yeah. So, Agnes tweeted in December, I've actually even mentioned this in the podcast, she said, "it's paradoxical, that epistemic humility shields, one from experiences of being humbled. For example, if we discover aliens, would you rather be [UNCLEAR] thinking kind of, I never, I never assumed they didn't exist." Or you ought to be bowled over thinking I can't believe this. There's aliens. And so is this is sort of protecting us from having to say, Oh, my God, like, I was wrong about this thing is that like, really humility? And he had that, that definitely kind of made me take a step back and think about how I talk and how I talk to myself about my beliefs about things. And then there was another post. Let me just dig it up from my, my instapaper.
Ali
Your second brain?
Taimur
No, third, third brain. Just give me a moment, okay? Just give me a sec.
Ali
It's all right, mate. The pauses are gonna get cut out. Too much hedging on your part.
Taimur
Man, it's still so hard to find things. Bloody hell, notes is in Instafavor highlights. I know I DMed it to a friend on Twitter. So if it's not in the highlights, that's where I'm going next. Just in case, anyone's interested in the thought process here. Right? To the Twitter, DMs, we go.
Ali
On a separate note, I think we should do Q&A for the podcast more often.
Taimur
What does that mean?
Ali
As in taking questions from the audience and just chatting about them.
Taimur
What made you think about that?
Ali
Because I was I was going through my Castro the other day. And I was thinking that a lot of my favorite episodes of podcasts are where the host is not interviewing someone, but it's actually just answering questions from the audience. I feel like it's a very, like, it's always like solid content. And it always brings out more interesting things than when they have a specific topic to discuss.
Taimur
I'm down for that. Maybe the members, members community can submit some questions. Just give me a sec. Okay, I can't find the article, but actually so this is a end of November via the Twitter DMs with his friend. And we were talking about some company and my friends. I think my friend described something as a shitty idea. And my response was, you know, like, how strongly do you actually believe that? Like, are you just kind of sort of being quite loose with your words, just for fun or whatever? And this friend said, he said, "the issue mate is that you don't have strong enough convictions. I think you're too open minded about things." And, you know, I've talked about this before. And in this case, I was like, Look, yeah, you know, we've talked about this, in this case, you know, I'm not like the target customer, you know, like, why would I know whether that's this is like a good idea or a bad idea. And this friends thought that what you said, mate, so that's what you have to be more opinionated. I'm not afraid of being wrong. But I will say that I think it's a shit idea. And he said, I think it's because I'm more decisive and maybe happier to be wrong, not good at good qualities always to be clear. But I think I am in general, more opinionated and happier to criticize unhappy to be proven wrong. Whereas I guess my general stance is to not really hold many strong opinions, yet to not really go out on a limb really.
Ali
Interesting. And you've been changing this recently?
Taimur
I think so. I think I've been changing this recently. And look, I think part of this is just like a, I think part of this is just a shift in my own personal aesthetic sensibilities of like, I'm just, I'm just bored of the hedging band, I'm bored of the epistemic humility, it's, it's just more fun to kind of just be a bit more straight up about things and like, just hold some beliefs. Dammit. Right. And I think this is related to the, it's kind of related to the trying to try things where, you know, as a recap, if you say, you know, if someone says, I am going to, alright, there's a [UnCLEAR] next to me, if someone says, I'm going to learn the piano, you know, it is already implied that they're going to try to learn the piano. It's already implies that they're going to make an attempt to learn the piano, if you say, I'm going to learn the piano, like no one thinks with 100% certainty, like this person is gonna learn the piano, obviously, like there's some chances this won't work out. It's already there in the language. When you say I'm going to learn the piano. there's already some like uncertainty there. If you say I'm going to try to learn the piano, then like your mindset about it is different. And you can do things that are trying to learn the piano, which are obviously not learning the piano. And so you're kind of trying to try. So when you say I'm going to learn the piano, you're actually to try to learn the piano. And so when you say I'm going to try to learn the piano, you're going to try to try to learn piano. So I think in the same way, like, if someone if I say like, I think that I think x is bad or whatever, like, inherent in the fact that I'm expressing something is that is that like, you know that there's a chance I'm wrong. You know, if I say I think x is bad, I'm not trying to say that, like, it is objectively true that x is bad. And so for me to do all the hedging and the sort of the boring language around, yeah, potentially, I think there's a small chance that in x, y & z scenarios, you know, this thing is bad. I, there's just no need for it. So boring. It's so annoying.
Ali
Yes, I probably agree. I used to, this general thought has crossed my mind when I'm on podcast. And if I'm if I'm being interviewed on a podcast, I feel much more okay, with not hedging when making a statement.
Taimur
Really? Why?
Ali
I think because, probably because I feel like I'm in a, in a position of authority when I'm being interviewed on a podcast. And, therefore, if I make a strong claim, and I know that I prefer podcasts where the guests make strong claims, because if I disagree with them, then it's a hard disagree. And if I agree with them, and it's a high degree, but there's, you know, if there's, if there is a lot of hedging, then you get to a point where you're not really saying anything, because of course, everyone is going to agree with you.
Taimur
Yes.
Ali
Because, of course, in certain circumstances where x, y and z are true, then this thing is probably possibly, you know, likely to be true as well. And so like, one phrase that I often say that comes to mind is, I don't think anything is fun as a full time job.
Taimur
Okay. Yeah.
Ali
And anytime I find myself saying that part of me thinks, Oh, I should be hedging here. Because, obviously, you know, depending on who you are, and depending on blah, but actually, I do strongly believe that nothing is fun as a full time job. And I will happily argue that with anyone who wants to do was to argue and open to changing my mind on that front, but I just strongly believe that nothing is fun as a full time job. And I think that the difficulty with the hedging thing is what about on this podcast? Like recent episodes, we've done about generalizations and misogyny and things like that, where we kind of said that, look, we landed in a place where we were where we both agreed that there does need to be some level of hedging at the start some level of caveat in some level of trigger warning.
Taimur
I think that's a different kind of hedging. I think that is like, foreseeing ways that things might be able to be misinterpreted.
Ali
Is that not the same as your type of hedging? And if I were to say, I don't think anything is fun as a full time job. For the ways in which that could be interpreted, it would require [UNCLEAR] start?
Taimur
No, no, I think I think the kind of hedging we you know, that was more relevant than the misogyny episode, for example, is hedging where we're talking about something and someone might misinterpret what we're trying to say. I think the kind of hedging I'm talking about here is the hedging that kind of weakens your statements said that it's so that there's like zero chance of you being wrong, like saying something that is untrue. It's not about like, misinterpretation. It's more like dilution. It's almost like dilution rather t an hedging. I guess. I I think that the hedging from to not be misinterpreted I think hedging is actually the wrong word for it. I think hedging is the ri ht word for this for the dilution thing. But whatever. We need to get into t at degree with th
Ali
So agree with? Agree with what? The hedging is the wrong sort of what?
Taimur
Those two things are different. One thing is like, the the sort of epistemic humility rubbish is I've obviously, like, speaking strongly about this. On the theme of the discussion, right, so the epistemic humility stuff is more about diluting your beliefs. And the, you know, what we've been calling the hedging stuff is more about just like, you know, putting some disclaimers and caveats that it's harder for other people to misinterpret. It's not about dilution.
Ali
I'm not sure I agree with that yet. So we're seeing the differences dilution versus mis interpretation?
Taimur
Okay, for example, the kind of hedging that might be appropriate in like the, you know, if we're discussing misogyny or something like that, is, you know, if we're, if we're talking about like, what's a good example? I mean, for example, if you're talking about a controversial or like a difficult issue or something, and you only talk about one aspect of it. One way in which you might be misinterpreted is that people think that the aspect you talked about is the only aspect you care about, or that by only talking about one aspect, you are suggesting that that is the only aspect to it. And so a sort of don't misinterpret me hedging would be before that saying, look, this is a complicated issue. There's lots of aspects of it. We're only talking about one aspect in this podcast, but that doesn't mean this is the only aspect. That doesn't mean we think it's the most important one. You know, we're just talking about this one thing that would be a hedging to avoid misinterpretation, it is not a dilution of what you actually are saying or what you actually believe, agreed?
Ali
Agreed. I'm trying to think of another example that that is outside of that realm of misinterpretation hedging. See, I've got examples in my head that I want to use to just explore this point. But I'm
Taimur
Due to [UNCLEAR]
Ali
I need to head first with those specific examples. So I'm trying to find something that is unlikely to offend any minority group of people, even if it's used and just as a, as a way of discussing this particular theory. Okay. So, if on the podcast, we were to hypothetically say that.
Taimur
Please don't say anything stupid right now.
Ali
If on the podcast, we were to hypothetically say that, you know, women in general are more attracted to confidence, or confident men. To what extent would that need hedging in the form of dilution of the statement versus risk of misinterpretation? It's something I strongly believe, but I feel like it's something if I were to, if I were to say out loud, would require some level of hedging, and I wouldn't necessarily, it wouldn't necessarily be bad for that to be a hedged statement.
Taimur
All right. Give me a second, I need to plug my laptop in. Alright. I mean, I don't think I I'm not sure how that can be misinterpreted. It's seems like a simple statement. And it sounds like you, you, you actually believe it to the strength that most people would interpret what you're saying. So I mean, look if, like, if that's what you believe, and you decide it's appropriate to say that on the podcast, there's no headroom required? Like it's probably not [UNLCEAR] dilusion required, because that's what you actually believe.
Ali
No, but I think the devil is in the detail there where you said, and you think it's appropriate to mention on the podcast.
Taimur
Because?
Ali
Because hedging potentially makes something more appropriate to mention on the podcast than not, like, the reason we would think something is inappropriate dimensional a podcast is because it's sufficiently controversial, or sufficiently polarizing or sufficiently x. Whereas hedging reduces the polarizing the polarized nature of a statement that you're saying, for example, if this was a podcast about business, and you were to say, I strongly believe that Airbnb business model is absolutely terrible. You know, that may be a very controversial statement amongst the distance of that audience. And, you know, you might not think that is that statement, by itself is appropriate to make on the podcast. But if you were to hedge it. And dilute your statement would be like, look, due to all the regulations and stuff, I've strongly believed that in some cases, Airbnb is business practices might not be on the ethical side of the law, blah, blah, blah, that would then make it a more appropriate thing to say on the podcast, therefore, you're dilutional hedging, make something more appropriate to say out loud, which is kind of what I'm getting at, which is that you're like I'm exploring for the record. I'm not saying, Okay, I'm saying I agree with that particular view. But for the record, this is purely hypothetical exploration of your point about dilusional hedging. You know, like, Is it fair to say that dilution hedging, hedging is bad, when it feels like dilusional hedging is sometimes required if you're making a statement, which some people might strongly disagree with on a public platform.
Taimur
All right. All right. Let's talk about the Airbnb example. If my true belief is actually that, you know, Airbnb business model is inherently flawed. If that's my true belief, then, okay, so maybe I truly believe that Airbnb, his business model is inherently flawed. Maybe I think that's too. Yeah, that's too controversial to say, on a podcast. And so what you're saying is maybe I might say, I mean, I'm not trying to be nitpicky here, but like, the details do matter, because, yeah, maybe that was a bad example, because there's a difference between saying, a company's business model is inherently flawed versus like, oh, in some, in some countries, you know, based on laws and regulations, they're actually like, doing something unethical or something like that. Right So like, okay, okay, maybe better example is saying, you know, instead of saying, I think Airbnb is evil, I might say, you know, in some countries based on the laws and regulations, Airbnb is operating illegally, unethically, you know, whatever, right? Okay. Is that a fair example?
Ali
Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Because like, what if the thing that you believed is truly the Airbnb is evil? Like, I'm, I'm trying to get out. The point, I'm trying to get out as delusional hedging is not always bad. Sounds, for example, if I were making it, if I were making a general comment about any group of people, I think there would be a level of delusional hedging that would be required to make it appropriate in a public platform.
Taimur
Yes, fine.
Ali
Okay. Great. And therefore, you having sort of, I think, in a one on one conversation, saying that, you know, these other companies that we're competing with are shit, because they don't know how to figured out is very different to you going on a public platform and saying that same thing, right?
Taimur
Yes, I agree. Yeah, I think it Yeah. it is prudent to whatever you call it delusionary hedge on a more public platform than on a less public platform.
Ali
That was the only point I was trying to make.
Taimur
Okay, I think we're in agreement there.
Ali
Are we? Oh, so one interesting thing is, this comes about when we're having discussions of religion between Atheism and Agnosticism. Some I can't remember where I read this, but it was it was in like, like some Atheists argue that people who say they are Agnostic are really like, aligned to themselves. Because Agnosticism is like the ultimate hedge, hedge position, where it's like, I don't really believe in God, but I can't I don't have evidence that God doesn't exist. Therefore, I'm going to say I'm Agnostic, and no one can call you out for being Agnostic. Whereas if you identify as an Atheist, all of a sudden, you're identifying as an Atheist, and that's a big deal with a big deal. And fewer people are comfortable identifying as an Atheist. And so, you know, are you really agnostic about the existence of Santa Claus? No, you are atheistic about the existence of Santa Claus. Are you really agnostic about the existence of God? You know, maybe you're just scared of identifying as an Atheist. I feel like that that often comes that comes hedging thing.
Taimur
Potentially yeah, I guess I'm not agnostic. So I don't really, I don't know what the mindset might be there. It'll be interesting to talk to a agnostic person about that. But going back to what you thought was a conclusion about it being you know, you should you should delusionally hedge in a public sphere or somethin. I think it depends. I think it depends on the content. Like, if you're saying something, if you're saying something that could cause harm to other people, yeah. delusionally hedge. If you're saying something that, you know, even if you're like, really wrong about it, and that, you know, can cause harm to people. Probably okay not to do you know, just say that Santa Claus is real or whatever. You agree with that? I think it's really more about the content.
Ali
Yeah, I agree. I think I think the content matters, the only the only reason I brought up the podcast example was because the way that you you were saying it was it sounded like you were you were anti delusional hedging in general. Okay. And I was pushing back on that saying that well, even I'm pro delusional hedging in certain contexts.
Taimur
Yeah. I said the content, okay. I say, Yeah, I'd say in the context, where you being wrong about the thing, or even you expressing the opinion, whether it's right or wrong, in the context where either those two things can like cause harm to people.
Ali
What do you mean by cause harm to people?
Taimur
Sorry.
Ali
What do you mean by cause harm to people? Would it cause harm for
Taimur
No. [UNCLEAR] safe thing to say, Okay. I mean, if on issues that you to say that Airbnb is evil? are more, more fundamental than Airbnb is ethics, if a public you know, stuff to do with race, or gender and things like that, if a public figure were to say something, it could actually cause harm to people, like, tangible, you know, physical harm, as well as just people feeling bad. I think both is harm to people. So I think that's where it matters to be mindful. Yeah, if you're talking about like, some company's business model, come on, dude. No, nothing. Nothing really matters either way, in the grand scheme of things there. Okay. So I think I think like, I'm not trying to say delusional hedging is always bad. I'm not trying to say it in the slightest. And this isn't just me delusionally hedging my actual view. Okay. Let me call to the stand. a blog post, we, you know, we may have even talked about this on the podcast, I finally discovered it. The blog post is called: "In defense of being confidently wrong." and this person, I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation Artyom Kazak, maybe. They noticed that, you know, some people often talk in a way where they'll often say things like, my mental model of this is x, you know? Or like, it would seem good. It seemed like it's good to do X, or like, the prudent option would be this. And yeah, I probably, you know, think this or whatever. You know, lots people talk like that. I think I have a massive tendency to talk like that. Do you agree? Do you feel like you do that as well?
Ali
Yes, I was. I was in a clubhouse interview yesterday, and I was doing a lot of hedging in that context. Anytime I was about to make a bold statement, where I was like, I would tentatively suggest to that.
Taimur
Yeah. Yeah. So look, I think, I think like lots of people do this certainly mean, you included, and this guy at the read blog post, he says that these are all ways to put out a thought that you have without actually identifying with it. And he thinks if you always phrase things in this way, it means you can never like catch yourself out later by thinking oh, I was clearly wrong about something. You know, if you say my mental model of this is x, and x turns out to be the wrong mental model. Technically, you were wrong, but it doesn't feel like you're wrong. You almost like, uou're almost like passing the blame onto your mental model. Right?
Ali
It was my brain that was wrong, not me.
Taimur
Yeah, yeah, you are you yourself are never wrong and certainly your mental models. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with having a, there's nothing bad about having your own mental model, a mental model is just something that happens to me. And so if you if you like, always think and always talk in a style where you say, you talk about how things seem and what your mental model is, you can entirely, he says you can entirely avoid two things, you entirely avoid A, the feeling of fully believing something. And you also entirely avoid B, the realization that you are 100% wrong about something. Like if you're always talking about what things seem to be like, you know, what your mental model is, and you know, what probably might be true, sometimes. You'll never experience fully believing something, and you'll never experience what it feels like to be 100% wrong about something. And the interesting point that he makes is that the good thing about, you know, if there is the potential of you being confidently wrong about something, it kind of, what's a good analogy here, it kind of forces you to like, really think about your beliefs and things. You know, it's kind of like how, if you were, if you weren't, let's say you were trying to jump a distance of one meter, right? Okay, one meter is really easy. Let's say you try and jump a distance of two meters, that would be okay, that's also easy. Let's say, let's say you were trying to jump a distance of four meters, okay? Like you want to jump distance of four meters. Now, you could just lay out, you know, two lines in the sand four meters apart and try and make the jump. Yeah, that's one way of doing it. Or you could dig a pit of fire, and lava, which is four meters long, and try and jump over that, right? And when the stakes are higher, when there is an actual cost of being wrong, your mindset about how the hell you're going to jump four meters is going to be very different, because now your life depends on jumping this four meters. In the first instance, when you're jumping between two lines on the beach, your life doesn't depend on jumping four meters. And so I think there's a good chance that you can jump the four meters when it's over lava when your life depends on it, and you have to do it. And you might end up never jumping the four meters of the sand. And so similarly, like, if you actually stake claims to things, and you expose yourself to the possibility of being, like really confidently wrong about something, and having to like put your hands up and say, I thought that was true, and I'm wrong, then like, it's sort of, it sort of tunes your, your thinking circuits differently, where you're actually, you know, you'll think about things in a different way. And you'll kind of iterate on your beliefs differently, you're kind of like, you know, whereas if you can always, you know, get away with all it seems like, this is the case or whatever, like, there's, there's no stakes, you can you can go around having really, really, you know, bad mental models, if you want to call it that. You can go around your whole life having really bad mental models, because there's never any reason to try and refine them, or like try and actually get them right, because you're never gonna be wrong about it. It's always a probability. So it was it seems to be right. What do you think about that?
Ali
Yeah, I think that's pretty good. All right. Thank you for listening to.
The thing that I'm thinking of is open to being confidently wrong publicly versus privately and all those two different things. And like the context I'm thinking of this as in like, you know, it's it's very easy for me to be confidently wrong when I'm speaking to my housemate. But it's a different matter to be open to being confidently wrong. If I'm making a YouTube video about it like, right?
Taimur
Well I guess the stakes are higher in the YouTube video. Yeah, that's more closer to the lava, whereas your housemate is like, I know jumping over a four meter swimming pool, you'd be fine. Even if you fall in, maybe you just get wet or something.
Ali
Yeah, I guess like, it's that's not quite what I'm getting at what I'm, what I'm getting at is, it comes back to Okay, it comes with what's it called the Overton window? of like, you know, I feel like a lot of the opinions that I or your other people might have that we would be open to be confidently wrong about if they were to see be said publicly, they would fall outside of the Overton window of acceptable things to say in public and so.
Taimur
I'm not sure I agree with that. Sorry, I disagree with that.
Ali
There we go.
Taimur
Now, I'm actually not sure I'd agree with that, because I'm not sure what you said.You're saying that, like, the things that we would dilute or whatever to not the things that we close ourselves off from being confidently wrong about, are things that it would be socially unacceptable to be confidently wrong about, is that right?
Ali
Yes.
Taimur
Really?
Ali
I think so.
Taimur
For example, like historically, I would have, I would have closed myself off to being confidently wrong about what the right strategy is for going to market with a number crunching tool. Right like I would have, I would have like hedged and done all that stuff there. And it's probably socially acceptable for me to be wrong about that.
Ali
get canceled for that.
Taimur
Yeah you might. It sounded to me like you were suggesting that the main reason you do the hedging and stuff in public is because the thing, the only things you hedge about are cancellable beliefs. Is that the case?
Ali
Okay, no, I think, a subset of the things I..
Taimur
Of course.
Ali
Yeah, Would be are cancellable beliefs.
Taimur
Cancellable [UNCLEAR} offenses.
Ali
Exactly. Yeah, it's cancel against the state. Yeah. All that stuff. And so..
Taimur
Yeah, it's obviously like the right strategy to hedge about those things. Yeah. But Okay. Do you think you do outside? There are probably plenty of areas in which you do it. Which on cancelable territory yet.
Ali
I think the main area in which I do it is where I feel like I actually like I actually don't have enough data just to form opinion an about.
Taimur
Okay, I thinkthat's a bit of a trap. And like..
Ali
Like for example, you know, if you were to ask me my opinions on parenting, sure. I mean, I can give all the armchair expertise on parenting that I want. But like, really, the answer to most questions that I have about parenting are, I don't really know, but I, you know, this is what I'm currently thinking about it
Taimur
Yeah, that's fine. But like..
Ali
That's like, reasonable.
Taimur
That's reasonable. Like, that's fine. But like, that's also stupid example. Because like, why would you be opining about parenting?
Ali
I don't, I think you've done it fairly often, on this podcast.
Taimur
I have knowledge that other people don't. So look, but for example, if you're, you know, something more within your wheelhouse might be, you know..
Ali
I mean, okay, I'd be very comfortable to say something like, I don't think anyone should check their phones before 10:30 because it reduces your productivity, happy to be constantly wrong about that one.
Taimur
Is that actually how you phrase it?
Ali
I mean, the way probably phrases, but like, in a lot of circumstances, it's pretty good. If you, you know, set limits on when you're going to check your email and notifications before 10:30 because realistically, nothing bad is gonna happen before 1030 in the morning.
Taimur
Okay, that's, that also feels like a trivial example, I think there are situations where it is important to have an accurate analytical model of the world.
Ali
Okay. And give me an example where this is legit, outside of your, your also trivial example of, you know, a good market strategy for a number crunching startup.
Taimur
I don't think that's trivial. Like, okay, for example, business strategy, like business strategy, right? Like, it's not a hard science, there's no, there's no exact rights or wrongs. But, you know, if you, you can always have the mindset of like, well, I don't have enough data on this, you know, I haven't tried both strategies. So how am I supposed to know like, that is a, that is a realm where there's decent amount of uncertainty, there is some data, there are, there are theories, you can cook up in your head, but you could drown in the uncertainty, if you wanted, you could put your hands up and say, Oh, well, I don't have enough data about this thing. So I'm not gonna like, I'm not gonna have a position, I'm not gonna have any conviction about something. And that will lead to bad results. I think you need to have conviction.
Ali
Conviction in decision making for businesses very important. Sure.
Taimur
Right. So that's one realm. I mean, look, just like any most things.
Ali
Okay, what's the realm outside of business strategy. You're just missing any example, I come up with this trivial when I'm trying to, I'm trying to think about this, I would love to hear examples of yours outside of the realm of business strategy.
Taimur
Okay, let me tell you why I think the phone before 10:30 thing is trivial.
Ali
I agree, it's trivial. I'm trying to use a trivial extreme example, to figure out where the limits of this point.
Taimur
I mean, there's loads of stuff, right, like, any kind of big decision or thing that has large consequences. For example, you know, choosing a career or, you know, entering into like a relationship like these are all things where there is uncertainty, you could plausibly put your hands up and choose to drown in the uncertainty and not have conviction. But it will serve you poorly if you decide to go down that route.
Ali
I don't know if it would, if I'm choosing a career at the age of 16. I think, you know, one way of having conviction is, I want to be a doctor. And I think that attitude would serve you more poorly than a more hedged attitude of to be honest, right now, I think I might want to be a doctor based on my very limited life experience. But you know what, let me actually think about this a little bit harder. Let me get some experience. Let me actually decided this really want to get into speeches and people that know me. You know, when I'm in med school, sure, I'll try my best. But, you know, if it gets to the point where I feel like this isn't really what I want to do, I will have an open mind about going into something else. That's a hedged position. And that position will serve people much, much, much better than the position of I've decided at the age of 12. I want to be a doctor and I'm going to go for it with full conviction.
Taimur
Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, that might be a realm where you know collects your bits of data rather than zero data before making it..
Ali
Equally when it comes to relationships, you know, if you had the conviction for a non hedged decision to marry the first person you had a crush on in high school, again, probably suboptimal, there's a level there's a level to which delusional hedging is actually useful when it comes to decision making in these contexts. And I don't think I think you're drawing a false dichotomy between either you have conviction in decision making, or you drown in uncertainty. And it's, not that simple, man.
Taimur
I'm not trying to draw any dichotomies, all I'm trying to say is that there exists this trap of thinking and talking in this always thinking and talking in this way, which A, is just a lame way to live your life makes you a bit of a loser and B..
Ali
Strong words there.
Taimur
Maybe I'm overcompensating a bit here. But yeah, A, is just like a lame way to live. You're like closing yourself off from fundamental things like holding beliefs as being wrong about things and B, it like, it doesn't train you to be right about things. Right? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that this is a trap. I have fallen into this trap before, where I'd be extremely reluctant to take a stance on things. And now I'm more open to it. In large part for aesthetic reasons, I think it's lame, but also, because I do think it's true, that if you close yourself off from being wrong, you will, there's a good chance you'll never be meaningfully, right.
Ali
Okay. the reason, I'm not like, Yeah, fine. The the way you're phrasing it is very delusionally hedged.
Taimur
No it's not. It accurately represents what I'm trying to say, I'm not, I'm trying to say that there is this trap that I fall into that I think people fall into, I'm not trying to say anything stronger than that. I think it's really context dependent. You know, how much data you need to make a decision how important conviction is, and faith is versus like, you know, being as usual or something. It's like completely context dependent. But I have fallen into this trap.
Ali
Fine. If your only point is, there is a trap that sometimes people can fall into. And I have fallen into that trap on occasion, and I'm trying to think be more mindful of that trap. So that such that I may fall into it less, then we have nothing to disagree on. Because that statement is so hedged.
Taimur
The statement is hedged. But I think it's a meaningful statement. It's useful statement. Like, yeah, fine it's hedged. But it's I think it's very meaningful. [UNCLEAR] yeah, I don't think there, I think there's a stronger opinion I can have about this, because I think it's really context dependent. I don't know what a stronger opinion would look like, you know, because it just depends on context. Whereas in the case of I think this strategy is wrong, versus or within this strategy is possibly, maybe sometimes, you know, well, maybe there is a strong opinion you can have, which is that the strategy is wrong, or worse or whatever, right?
Ali
I think the main thing I was disagreeing with, with what was your initial, you know, like, an hour ago, your very first mention of this, which is which, which were, which sounded quite like brush and raised alarm bells in my head, because it sounded as if you were saying that, I want to, you know, in the past, I wouldn't have said that this company's business practices are shit. And now I realized that actually, I should be talking like that. I was like, hold, hold the hell off. You know, what about this and that, and this and that, and this and that. But if you're only point is, this is a trap where it is possible to fall into. And sometimes I fall into that trap, and I'm trying to be more mindful of it, then hey, sure, fully agree fully in full agreement with that.
Taimur
But yeah, I think I probably should, should say things like, I think that's good, or I think that's bad. More often than maybe, like, possibly sometimes. It seems like, yeah,
Ali
I guess I mean, I think we talked about, you know, this is good and about on the podcast quite a lot.
Taimur
Yeah. it's also related..
Ali
I thinkthose conversations are like, it's, it's more interesting when you say, I think the way we treat children right now is bad. You know, it's like, oh, okay, that's interesting. And if someone agree, someone disagrees, you've you've made a position clear, which encourages some level of discussion. Whereas if you were to be like, Well, I think in some contexts, the way that some people treat some children is bad, but literally everyone will be like, okay, okay, fine. I have to agree with that statement. There's no interesting conversation to be had about it.
Taimur
Yeah. I think this is also related to the mind virus of relativism, which is sweeping the lens.
Ali
Oh, okay. Well, what does that mean?
Taimur
I had so yesterday, I had a fuse a bunch of Zoom calls with friends. One of the Zoom calls, that I didn't bring this up. This wasn't me, this wasn't me. A friend had bought a new monitor. And the other friend on the call. He bought a new mic, he bought a cheap, crappy new monitor. And the other friend of the call, called him out and said, That was stupid. It's a really high measure. Then we go into discussion about the measure stuff. And yeah, and I like, you know, we will try to convince this guy that look you should have spent more money on a monitor. Like you spent ages do you spend your whole day on your computer make, like, what are you doing? And a lot of the pushback coming from him, were sort of appeals to relativism of like, Oh, you know, someone might think that you don't have a fancy enough monitor that you should have an extra monitor, you know, like, someone might equally say that about you. That kind of thing. And I think I think like, the sort of, yeah, there's a danger of like drowning and relativism, where you should put your hands up and say, like, Well, you know..
Ali
Anything goes,
Taimur
Yeah, anything goes, all right. And again, you're you're closing yourself off from being wrong, but also closing yourself off from making any kind of meaningful or useful statements, and closing yourself off from like, actually iterating towards correct beliefs. Yeah. Anyway, I think that's, yeah, what I think is the mind virus of relativism is something I've been thinking a lot about, I need to consolidate and do some reading on. And then we'll talk about that on the pod
Ali
I was reading a summary of "12 Rules For Life" by Jordan Peterson earlier today. He talks about, he talks about his is a very anti relevant relativistic vibe.
Taimur
Yeah, I think he also doesn't like it.
Ali
There are fundamental truths, and there are fundamental moralities. And, you know, it's not just a case of, you know, do whatever suits you, and you know, you do you and as long as you're not harming anyone, it's all good, type vibes. Somewhat, like, you know, somewhat right leaning sort of ideology.
Taimur
I think we're seeing a bit of a resurgence, towards traditionalism in general. I've started seeing it on Twitter, which is, you know,
Ali
The hub of all of all human knowledge, of course.
Taimur
I wouldn't say it's the hub, but I think it's the precipice, it's where the change begins, like, once you start like, seeing whack jobs, say, weird things on Twitter. It kind of grows from there. Eventually, large swathes of society are now saying, say those things, and it's no longer like a whack job thing to say. But I'm definitely seeing a bit of a push back against. Yeah, modernism, post modernism, whatever those things mean. I don't know dude. I mean, just like the whole trad thing, the whole trad movements?
Ali
Well, what's the trad movement?
Taimur
Trad is short for like, traditional or whatever.
Ali
gender roles, and you know, that sort of stuff?
Taimur
And no, it's sort of like, I think the senses that in, you know, there were real problems with the traditional ways of thinking and living. And in correcting for those, we've sort of thrown the baby out with the bathwater. And now there's a bit of like a correction back in the opposite direction, where maybe we're starting to see the wisdom of some of the old ways of doing things. Obviously, not like all of them are not like, to the same degree. But you know, there's, there's like a bit of a redirection back in that direction. Yeah. And it's kind of related to the sort of IQ curve meme. I think you mentioned the one of like, you know, the dimwit is like, Oh, yeah, just nine to five job wife and kids. It's all about family. And then the Midwest is like [UNCLEAR] digital nomad. family's stupid I'm in a polyamorous relationship in a polycule. That's what they called polycule. You know?what's actually the smart person called? On the thing? Yeah, whatever. Then the smart person's like, yeah, stable job. Wife and kids so about the family, a local community, you know, all this good stuff. Like I think that get that is like a nod to the slight resurgence towards traditionalist. Anyway, whatever. That's fair. That's another topic for another day. All right, I think I think we'll start to wrap things up there. Let's read a review. I'll do the honors.
Ali
Fantastic.
Taimur
Oh, we had a funny one this week. Yeah, this is funny. Okay, it's a four star review. It's entitled, "Thoughtful, Insightful, ..." It's by Josh813 and the United States of America. Joshua813. were taken. Anyway, the review is "Pompous. Man, these guys are pompous. You can tell they are a couple of upper class lads from the UK. Born into privilege, maybe an assumption, but perhaps a correct one." Lot of delusional hedging. "Maybe an assumption, but perhaps a correction." Now, I'm not trying to shit on you here, Josh. I'm just trying to like, draw attention to the thing that we talked about in the episode. To be clear. People have their ethnicity at this. This is a weird statement. "People of their ethnicity in the UK do not end up so highly educated and with secure employment without coming from means." I think that's interesting because neither of us are securely employed. Yeah that was a weird state where people have their ethnicity in the UK do not end up so highly educated and would secure employment without coming from means. Probably true. This is good. This is good. "Infantile takes about the opposite sex are abound when the topic of dating or women in general is brought up. Perhaps it's an age issue. Question mark. This comes off as misogynistic, although I do not think they're intentionally being misogynistic." infantile takes by the opposite sex are bound.
Ali
Yeah, fair enough.
Taimur
I can see where you're coming from for sure. "Other than the annoying pompousness these two leak without realizing that the podcast is thoroughly enjoyable and a must listen if you're into gathering insight into the human condition, frameworks and philosophical quandary.
Ali
Wow, what a great review.
Taimur
I loved it. I loved it. Thank you, Josh. That was great. Thanks for keeping it real. Thanks for calling us out on the infantile takes on dating and women. Yeah, that was cool. I like the style of review. I wish all reviews were of that style.
Ali
All right. We've got to do is we've got to do a sponsor segment for this recording. We can just use your we can use your recycled plug. Yeah, we'll use your recycle plug. All right. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode of not overthinking. And we'll see you next time. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening.
Taimur
If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on the Apple podcast website. If you're not using an iPhone, there's a link in the show notes.
Ali
If you've got any thoughts on this episode, or any ideas for new podcast topics. We'd love to get an audio message from you with your conundrum question or just anything that we could discuss.
Taimur
Yeah, if you're up for having your voice played on the podcast and your question being the springboard for our discussion, email us an audio file mp3 or voice notes to hi@notoverthinking.com.
Ali
If you've got thoughts, but you'd rather not have your voice played publicly, that's fine as well tweet or DM us at @noverthinking on Twitter please.