Why should you invest in a good kitchen bin?

Ali Abdaal
 
Taimur Abdaal
 
14.Apr.2019

Ali
My name is Ali, I'm a doctor and YouTuber.
Taimur
I'm Taimur, I'm a data scientist and writer.
Ali
And you're listening to Not Overthinking.
Taimur
The weekly podcast where we think about happiness, creativity and the human condition.
Ali
Hey, Taim, how's it going?
Taimur
Hey man, I'm alright. How are you? I haven't really spoken to you this week.
Ali
Yeah man, I'm great. I'm enjoying life, life at work. I've started m surgery placement, which has been quite tough because I have to wake up at hal
Taimur
Tough times mate. six in the morning every day. But apart from that
Ali
Yeah man, what can you do?
Taimur
All right, this week. Let's talk about a theory of mind. If you don't mind.
Ali
I don't mind at all. What's the theory?
Taimur
The theory is called measure. I'm gonna go into explaining measures.
Ali
As in M E A S U R E?
Taimur
Yeah, like measuring tape or something, you know?
Ali
Okay, cool.
Taimur
So now we know how to refer to it. So I'm just gonna put the name out there. It's a theory called measure. So I'm gonna start off by telling you a story that happened not too long ago in our house. So we recently moved into a new flat as you know, in St. Alban's, my mom and I live here. And we started sort of decking out the place getting furniture and things like that. And so one of the decisions that we had to make was, what kind of bin to get for the kitchen?
Ali
What kind of bin to get into kitchen?
Taimur
A kitchen bin.
Ali
Okay. Yeah. Cool.
Taimur
You've got a bin in your flat. Right? You were you quite like it.
Ali
I quite like it. But like for ages, we don't have a bin in the flat. And my housemate Molly was was full on campaigning to get a decent bin and all that.
Taimur
Oh, nice.
Ali
And I was thinking, you know, how can we possibly spend money on a bin? And she said that actually, at her sister's house, they had this bin that you wave your hand over it, and it you know, the lid pops up automatically? And then it closes automatically?
Taimur
Oh, yeah.
Ali
And genuinely since buying this bin for her as a Christmas present, I think it's the single most, most kind of quality-of-life-improving purchase that I've almost ever bought in my life.
Taimur
Amazing. Now, the reason I thought it was still worth it was because I think a bin is a
Ali
Yes.
Taimur
I'm sure you agree with with me on this story. So we had to decide what bin to get. My mom was of the school of thought that, you know, it's just a bin like it's not going to make your day, it's not going to be super exciting. It just has to do the job. And she wanted to get like a pretty average kind of standard bin for the kitchen. Now, I thought that actually we should, actually it is something worth investing in. It's something that we should really just go all out and get a top of line bin. So I was campaigning to get a particular bin called The Simplehuman butterfly, slim line, 30 liter bin, really, really nice bin. My mom didn't really get it at all. And even to me, it seemed counterintuitive, like 120 pounds on a bin! That seemed insane. I'd never really bought a kitchen bin before. But it did seem kind of bonkers. higher measure item. Right? And by that, I mean that it never gives you any massive amount of value each time you use it. Like you're never going to tell your friends "Oh, man I had a great interaction with the bin today". But the act that you use it so much, you know, you probably use your kitchen bin 5 or 1 times a day. And you probably, you probably keep the same kitchen bin pret y much while you're in an in a house, right? Like you might use it for a deca e, you're using this thing 5 to 10 times a day, for a decade. And so even thou h each time you use it, it doesn't really make your day it's not not part cularly exciting. The fact that you use it so often and over such a long period of time, means that even if your bin experience was like slightly better, 20% better, even if even if it was just better, that that would add up to a lot of extra value in your life over the sort of five, 5 to 10 times a day, over 10 years, if that makes sense.
Ali
Okay, so what you're saying is, it's reasonable to buy 120-pound bin because even if it's, let's say a 1% improvement, the fact that you're using it 10 times a day for 365 days a year for 10 years of your life means that that is worth whatever, pretty much whatever money you spend on it.
Taimur
Yeah, pretty much. So I think.
Ali
Okay, so why is this theory particular groundbreaking? Like why, why do you have to give us a name of measure?
Taimur
Good question. Good question. Am I just being pretentious again? I don't think I am. I, so I think you can sort of think about your life in terms of moments in time that give you a certain amount of value, right? And then you're sort of your objective on this planet is to try and maximize like the total value you're getting out of all of your life. So like the total value of all of these events in your life.
Ali
Okay, so like the area under the curve, almost.
Taimur
Yeah, if you've done like GCSE maths or something, it's kinda like taking an integral or whatever. But you don't need to think of it that way. And so some events might, events contribute value in different ways, right? Some events might have like a really high burst of value that lasts over a very short period of time, I think like, going out for a nice meal or something like that, you know, maybe you're eating this food for like an hour or something is really, really nice while you're having it. But after the meal is done, that food isn't really providing you much value. So it's like this, this burst of high value that goes away quite quickly. Now, other things are less exciting, like there's no burst of value, but it kind of sort of drips a small amount of value over a very long period of time. Right? And what I think is that when we, when we're evaluating different decisions, when we're thinking about, oh how best should I spend my time or how best should I spend my money, we actually have a bias towards thinking about sort of these bursts of value events, you know, these events that have a high magnitude of value, but don't last very long. So you might think of like going, going to holiday to a really nice place. Oh yeah, I actually spent loads of money on holiday, it'll be like loads of fun, because you're thinking about like, the magnitude of the value you're getting out of it at some point in time. But I think, I think this is actually really misleading. And the things that add up to a lot more value over time, are these things that aren't particularly exciting, but they just provide a small amount of value over a very long period of time, and very often. And so I think a bin is an example of this, where you use it a lot, use it for a very long time. And so it's worth having a nice experience every time you do. Other things for example, like, say a backpack, right? I first got a serious backpack, maybe like three or four years ago, it was like a birthday present to myself, I spent, like, I think, like 60 pounds on a backpack. This was in the summer after my second year or something. 60 pounds at the time was a lot of money for me to be spending on a backpack. But my thinking was that like, you know, I use a backpack every day, you know, I carry my books in there, I carry my laptop, and whatever. I use this thing every day for a few hours. And I'll essentially not replace it until it breaks. And so if I get a good backpack, you know, if the 60-pound backpack was just, you know, 20% better than a 20-pound backpack, it would still be worth it because I use it so often, that this extra 20% adds up to a lot of extra value over the course of my life. Does that make sense?
Ali
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think I'm fully on board with this measure theory of yours. I've always been an advocate for spending money in the areas in which you're spending your time. So this was a piece of financial advice that I came across like ages ago, that was you should always invest good money in a pair of shoes. And you should always invest good money in a bed, because you're spending 8-hours a day with your pair of shoes and in your bed.
That thing, you know, that that is a nod to your measure theory just
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. not called exactly that.
Yeah, that's right.
Ali
I think one, one domain in which I struggle with reconciling measure theory with other other sort of heuristics of decision making --
Taimur
Yeah, sure.
Ali
Is this idea of diminishing returns. So as you said, 20-pound bag versus 60-pound bag, it's not going to be, you know, your 60-pound bag is not three times as good as your 20-pound bag. It's only let's say 10% or 20% better. Equally, you know, when I evaluate technology on my on my YouTube channel, or whatever, you know, a 1300-pound iPad Pro is not twice as good, and definitely not four times as good as the 319 pounds regular run of the mill iPad. But, you know, how do we how do we justify that four times increase in price? One way of doing it, as you've said is, you know, in terms of in terms of measure theory that I use my iPad so often that even a 10% improvement is is worth it.
Taimur
Right.
Ali
But I wonder to what extent that's true. So for example, with my car. My car, let's say it costs six grand, to buy a secondhand. I could at a stretch buy a Tesla if I really wanted to. And let's say I were commuting two hours a day back and forth from work, which I will be doing next year.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
You probably still wouldn't advocate me buying a Tesla for 40,000 pounds relative to my car of 6000 pounds. So like, how does this this? How does this calculation fit into your measure theory?
Taimur
Just to point out that was a nice bit of wealth signaling there. Oh, yeah, I could, I could probably buy Tesla if I wanted to, just sort of put it out there.
Ali
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say go buy a Tesla with a change in my wallet right now. But I think that'd be a little bit excessive, possibly alienate a few members of the audience.
Taimur
So that's what that YouTube money...
Ali
All of that. All those brand deals. And you know, I suppose that people are right when they say it's just these two rich boys chatting.
Taimur
Yeah, you're always saying things.. Anyway. Yeah. So I think that's, that's maybe where the series sort of starts to break down. The question is like for you, how much extra value might that Tesla provide? Right? If you're driving like eight hours a day or something? Which you won't; you're driving like a couple of hours every day? Right? I don't think a Tesla would actually provide that much extra value. Right? It might only be sort of a couple of percent better than.
Ali
Than like a Nissan .. or something.
Taimur
Yeah. And then another. So I think there's definitely diminishing returns is there. I think maybe in the in the Tesla example, it does seem like the extra value you get out of it is extremely low. So I probably wouldn't go for the Tesla in that scenario. But I think there are things where there are diminishing returns. But the thing is so high measure that it's worth investing in, right? For example, I think, I think maybe glasses is something like this. I think glasses is sort of under invested in by most people. I mean, I wear glasses, you wear glasses, it's pretty much the way we see right? In the grand scheme of things like glasses are like extremely valuable to us in terms of what we get out of them. But they're they're pretty cheap for what they do. Right? They're like, I know, you can get glasses for like 50 quid or something. Right?
Ali
Sure.
Taimur
But one thing, for example, is that you could sort of spend more money on glasses by getting better lenses, right? You can get lenses that are like anti reflective.
Ali
Or like yeah, anti blue light.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
So you see better at night and all that crap
Taimur
So I think something like seeing is such a high measure thing, like you're doing it every moment you're awake. It's it's so it's so high measure that you, you know if you can afford it, it really does make sense to go all out on whatever lenses there are, right? Like, if if Leica made lenses with glasses I'd buy a bloody Leica lens with my glasses because glasses are just so high measure, right? It's hard to argue with with investing in something like eyesight.
Ali
Yes, but then again, the idea of diminishing returns comes in because let's say you could get a pair of Specsavers glasses for 30 or 40 pounds.
Taimur
Yeah. Would you really notice the difference between that and you know, let's say the glasses I'm wearing at the moment Giorgio Armani frames that were 425 pounds when I first bought them. But yeah, in fairness, I've been using these exact same glasses for the last five years and I get cheap lenses made from Pakistan. But even then I still get the old the anti reflective, anti scratch, anti blue light coatings on them. Is there really any difference? Any tangible difference between that and a 30 pound pair of pair of glasses from Specsavers? I don't even probably not? I actually I don't think the issue here is diminishing returns because like, yes, there are diminishing returns, I think the measure does sort of cancel it out the fact that the returns are diminished, but they're still multiplied by such a long sort of period of time. I think the issue here is sort of this idea of the hedonic treadmill, right? The idea that we sort of get used to whatever luxuries, we sort of get, and we stopped getting extra value out of them.
Ali
I don't think that's quite the issue I'm referring to. I don't, I don't think I will hedonically adapt to my -- because when it comes to something like glasses, you'd want to think that a better lens that you know, your Leica 800 pound glasses lenses are providing a distinct value, as opposed to just the fact that you feel good about them. Hedonic treadmill refers to how you feel about that particular purchase. And sure, yeah, I mean, I could be wearing a pair of 10 pound Specsavers glasses, and I wouldn't feel any different about them. But surely my 500 pound pair of glasses, surely with those expensive lenses is providing some actual value. And I'd hazard a guess that when it comes to glasses, maybe maybe not the case. Although now that you mentioned that I think there is something else that that needs to come into this equation. And that is the idea of how much disposable income do you really have, like, if we were both bajillionaires, we'd probably feel differently about the Tesla situation, we'd be like, you know what, you know what, I'm in a car for two hours a day, that's such a high measure item. (laughter) I should spend $80,000 on a Tesla, and that was just so high measure, you know, it's worth half of your whole life. Whereas we, we don't quite have the luxury to be able to afford a Tesla just like that, therefore, we regard it as, as more of something we have to think about. Whereas you and I are privileged enough that spending 120 pounds on bin is you know, it's not going to change your life in the slightest. It's not, it's not going to make a dent in your bank balance essentially.
Taimur
Right.
Ali
Whereas for someone else, the idea of spending 120 pounds in bin, let's say if you took our six years ago, when we were just finishing school, spending 120 pounds in a bin would have been completely and utterly absurd.
Taimur
That would have felt wrong.
Ali
And end even the measure theory would have would have not convinced either of us that actually, I should be spending 120 pounds on a bin.
Taimur
You make a good point there. Yeah, I think obviously you do sort of have to rescale everything and adjust for sort of how many, how many resources you have, how much time you have or how much money you have, right? So maybe maybe this measure theory doesn't really help too much in making those kinds of decisions. I feel like it does a bit because like the bin thing, for example, it was it was counterintuitive. Like we could afford the bin but it was still counterintuitive. It still felt weird, and it still felt wrong. And I think it was the right thing to do to think about it in terms of measure thing that's.
Ali
Yeah. I agree.
Taimur
I think so, I think it is helpful there.
Ali
Okay, so. So I think what you're what you're saying is that the measure theory is good as a way of counteracting our pre-existing bias towards valuing magnitude rather than considering measure.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Ali
And given that we know we have that bias, we can call to, to the forefront of my mind measure theory as a mental model, which you love to go on about all the time.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And that does help make better decisions. Obviously, there are other factors that go into it, like how much disposable income you have, or how much actual practical value you get out of your new pair of glasses. But ultimately, you know, the point is, once you have the vocabulary to describe a particular thought process, a mental model as such, then you can apply it where it works and choose not to apply where it doesn't.
Taimur
Yeah, I think I think the vocabulary point is actually pretty good. So in my sort of day job, I work for a tech startup, we often have to sort of prioritize what we work on, like what new features, for example, to add to our app, let's say. And often it comes down to like trying to figure out okay, how valuable is this feature actually going to be for our users. And often like, there'll be some like big sexy feature that might make like a splash and, and get lots of attention. And that would be like a high magnitude feature that that might not necessarily be high measure. And on the other hand, there are features where we're just making like a small tweak that very slightly improves some part of the experience. But this part of the experience might be something that all the users face, you know, for a long time while we use the app. And so having having this vocabulary of like distinguishing between things that are high magnitude and things that are high measure, we have actually found it useful. And often in these discussions, we might say, Okay, yeah, let's work on this particular thing. It's really high measure, so we should work on it. So I think that's nice. However, I think the real value here, yes, this might help you make better financial decisions, better decisions on how to spend your time, I think there's probably a ton of things that we overlook in our lives. I think I think we overlooked a lot of things just because it's kind of unconventional. So if we sort of think about the high measure aspects of our lives, and whether we're investing in them, I think it could lead to like, new new ways we can improve our lives and get more value out of things. I think one thing, for example is, you know, you often hear about other people in the music industry, actors and actresses and singers and stuff, they'll have like voice coaches, right? They have voice coaches to help them control and understand their voice. And that's great, like they're getting paid to use their voice, they're getting paid to sing and act. So it makes sense for them to be investing in this way. However, the rest of us, I mean, we use our voices all the time, right? Now, much of our waking hours, all our interactions with people are using our voice. So our voices are like a very high measure thing. You wouldn't normally think of it as something to invest in like something to spend time thinking about something to spend money training. But if you could sort of spend some resources to better understand your voice or improve your voice by like 10 or 20%. The fact that it's such a high measure thing surely means more people should be doing it. And how many people are thinking how many normal people who aren't in the business of show, aren't in the show business are thinking -- look, outside the sentence, I had to, I had to say that. (laughter)
Ali
We aren't in the business of show. Someone needs to improve their voice.
Taimur
Exactly. I think we, most people don't think oh, yeah, I should like invest in my voice. I think that's an example of like something that's really high measure that we just don't think about, because it's not really conventional. Right?
Ali
Okay. Yeah, I fully abide that we don't have the vocabulary to describe things like that, therefore, we just don't think about it.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
I've never once thought about, you know, improving my voice in that sense. But you're right, it is.
Taimur
That's not true. You had singing lessons.
Ali
Oh, yeah. In terms of singing, but not in terms of speaking.
Taimur
Oh, sure. I mean, I'm guessing I'm guessing it's a lot of the same thing. Through your singing lessons, you must have like, gotten a better understanding of your voice, different parts, of your voice different sort of.
Ali
Yeah, I guess..
Taimur
things like that.
Ali
But I feel like it's not -- having having singing lessons hasn't really changed the way that my voice sounds.
Taimur
Yeah, maybe singing is like a kettle of fish. So I think there's, there's probably a lot more of these sort of high measure things that we we just don't think about, we don't think about thinking about them. And we don't think about investing in them. Because partly because no one else is really doing it. And that's sort of that's a big driver of the things that we do end up thinking about. And partly, I think, because we sort of lacked the language to express that certain things are valuable, even though they're not particularly showy or exciting. So I think voice is one of them. I think, like, speaking is one of them as well. So like, this is something that more people are sort of onto than the voice thing, like a lot of people have public speaking lessons. You know, and if you're, if you're any kind of person who interacts with other people speaking is a massive part of what you do. If you have a job where you're working with other people, you know, being able to speak better, being able to communicate better and meetings and things. That's a hugely valuable thing. And even just like socially, you know, you're speaking all the time, if you can get better at speaking, that will surely pay dividends over your lifetime. And so we should, more people should probably be thinking about taking public speaking lessons or having having a coach to help them learn how to communicate, right?
Ali
Yeah, yeah, that sounds that sounds very reasonable.
Taimur
I think that the tragedy in all of this is that the people who do end up investing in this stuff are the people who will somehow end up making money from it. So all these business executives and stuff, they have coaches for all sorts of things, all of these things. They're sort of directly making money out of this thing. And so they directly invest in it. And it's, it's, it's kind of unfair, that like, the rest of us are doing these things all the time. We don't really think about investing in them, because we're not really getting direct money out of it. Like, it's hard to estimate the value monetarily of these things?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
But if we just think about the measure of it, it's almost a no brainer that like, I should actually tomorrow Google for a voice coach, right?
Ali
Yeah, maybe that's what I'm gonna do tonight, or even tomorrow.
Taimur
So like, what what are these other things where? Yeah, I think this is actually the crux of the issue. It's hard for us to like value things. I think capitalism kind of leads to some people valuing some things.
Ali
As you said, I think capitalism leads to some people valuing some things.
Taimur
Yes.
Ali
Ok, fine (laughter)
Taimur
As you could tell, I'm a deep thinking economist. But no, yeah, I feel like I feel like there's something here right?
Ali
I feel like there's something there.
Taimur
It's it's kind of unfair. that the people who end up investing in these things are people who are directly making money off of these things, Eg business executives, whatever, or actors and actresses in their voices.
Ali
And then and then almost in a way becomes a reason for normal people to not invest in those things. Like if I were, if I were thinking about taking voice lessons, my initial excuse for that would be Oh, but I'm not making money through my voice like this, or if.
Taimur
I'm not Jeff Bezos. Yeah. That was a throwback to episode one where we had a bit of a back and forth about Jeff Bezos.
Ali
Really?
Taimur
I think we did.
Ali
He makes money through his voice?
Taimur
His business executive kind of thing, right?
Ali
Oh, okay. I was trying to find some deeper meaning to your Jeff Bezos thing. So I'm thinking about news items recently have just apart from the scandal with his pictures.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Anyway, how do we go into this? Alright, so so so improving the voice? My excuse would have been that, Oh, well, I don't make money from it. I mean, like, it's, it's not something that will directly impact my life. Therefore, why should I put money into it?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And you're saying that just that purely on the basis that it's a high measure thing, you should be investing on it. Even if you're not gonna make any direct money out of it?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
It'll just, by default, pay dividends over.
Taimur
Yeah, it's such a far reaching thing in every aspect of your life, that you should definitely be investing in it, whether that's whether that's just like reading up on it and trying to improve yourself, or whether it's getting a coach or going to lessons or whatever. It's something worth investing in. And I think the rest of us don't really see that because we're not getting tangible money money out of it. And some people who are getting tangible money out of it, they do see that.
Ali
Okay, yeah, I can buy that.
Taimur
So what might other things be that like, really high measure, that normal people won't even be thinking, normal people won't even be thinking abou, because it doesn't feel like we're directly getting value out of them. But they're actually hugely valuable.
Ali
So that reminds me. Prior to this conversation, and the previous conversations we've had about this, I didn't have this vocabulary of measure to describe stuff. So for example, when I was trying to tell people like recommend books about stoicism, about philosophy to people, I'd I find it really hard to sell this as why this is valuable people be like, Oh, why do I care about this, whatever. And, and I'd be thinking in my head that, like, Surely it's a no brainer, the way you feel about events, and you know, how they dictate your personal happiness, and whether they make you feel angry or sad or whatever, being able to control your emotions like that, and just becoming happier in in general day-to-day life. It just has so many far reaching consequences throughout your entire life, that surely it is a no brainer to actively invest in reading about thinking about things like philosophy, and these mental models, these ways of thinking that make us happier people.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
But now I have this met this idea of measure that Yeah, pretty much anything that happens, you're going to respond to it in some way or another. It's, it's, as you say, a no brainer to work out how to do this.
Taimur
Yeah. Stuff like your, your mindset, and the way you frame things in life. This is this, like, affects your well being at all points in time, right? And so if you can somehow get better at that, then you're gonna get massive extra value out of your life.
Ali
Okay.
Taimur
The same thing goes for things like mental health, I think people are starting to get more aware of it now. And more people are starting to think so very consciously about their mental health, especially in the tech industry. Now, there's much less of a taboo against that of having a therapist and stuff. And so lots of people are getting therapist, and it's quite an open thing now. Whereas maybe a couple of decades ago, if you were open about oh, I have a therapist, that might have been an extremely weird thing to do. And people might have sort of looked down upon you for it.
Ali
Yeah, that's a good point. Like, I wouldn't even think of getting a therapist unless I had some sort of, quote, mental health issue. But even if I don't, it's it's it's a no brainer that you should just get therapist because
Taimur
Yes, it's because it's like a super high measure thing.
Ali
Because even even if you can improve your mental health by 2%, even if you don't have a you know, if you don't have a diagnosis of anxiety, or depression or something.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
That 2% is gonna be 100% worth it over the long term.
Taimur
Yeah, exactly. Like physical health is another another no brainer. That's something that's like fairly well accepted in society. But I imagine there was probably a time you know, in like, the Victorian era, where it's like, cool to be fat and stuff because it means you're like wealthy.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
I'm sure there were some people who were like, Oh, yeah, I want to like lift this rock up and down a lot. You know, I just I just feel like it'll add a little value to my life.
Ali
It's such a high measure item (laughter)
Taimur
I'm sure there was some people who were like, really into weird things like lifting things up and down, maybe I'm sure there was a time when it was like weird to be into like cardiovascular fitness, like going for runs and things that I'm sure that there was a time in all societies where this was unconventional. And the people who were investing in their physical health will probably seem to be quite weird. Why is this dude running laps? He's not getting anywhere. What an idiot, you know?
Ali
He's literally going in circles.
Taimur
Yeah. Now it's more accepted thing. And so everyone, everyone's fairly normal about like investing in physical health. It's like a high measure thing. It's very valuable.
Ali
Ah, so earlier this year, actually, I was deciding what sort of workouts to do this year because I was like, you know, before work, I want to go to the gym. I want to do this and that. And I realized that actually, the thing I need to focus on this year is my posture. And if there's only one thing that I focus on this entire year, it's going to be my posture. I'm going to do my face pulls, I'm going to do the stretches gonna get rid of my anterior pelvic tilt and get rid of my nerd neck thing.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Because who cares if I have slightly bigger pecs? What matters is that you know, my posture thing just is so high measure.
Taimur
It's crazy. Yeah.
Ali
I never had the vocabulary to describe that.
Taimur
Yeah, I think posture is a crazy one. Because every year I reached the conclusion, man, I have really bad posture. This is starting to become a serious issue in my life. I have almost constant back pains. I think my spine is deformed, malformed. I definitely have anterior pelvic tilt. And I often reach, oh, man, I should probably do something about this. But sort of labeling it as like a very high measure thing to do. I think it does help. It especially helps if you've started to started going on about this measure stuff on your blog, and your podcasts and stuff. And then you're not actually sort of taking your own medicine.
Ali
Investing in the high measure thing.
Taimur
Investing in the high measure things yourself.
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
So yeah, I think posture is definitely one of them. physical health, mental health, voice. There's gotta be there's got to be more it's, it's hard to think of them because they're so invisible. Right?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
Like what what are the things are there and like, sort of day-to-day life? I think relationships is one of them for sure. I think one, so for example, I live with my mom, I always spent like a decent amount of time every day, I think, at least a few hours. And I guess I've lived at home on and off for the since I graduated about a year and a half ago. And so my I guess my relationship with my mom is quite a high measure thing. And to be honest, I don't think my relationship with my mom has changed an awful lot in the past year and a half. And that that's kind of a shame, because it would be nice if it's sort of improved in some way. Like we'd both get more value out of this thing. Right?
Ali
Yeah.
Taimur
So that's quite a high measure thing. I haven't really thought too consciously about it. But when I think about it, like I should, I should definitely be consciously trying to improve that relationship, because it is quite high measure thing, we'll both get a lot of value out of it over time, you know?
Ali
Okay, so this makes me think about two points. The first one is, I feel like a lot of this high measure stuff would come under the stamp of self help. And then people like you who are pretentious, would think, oh, God this is self help advice, I'm not going to take it, I'm going to ignore that bit of the thing. Because earlier today, like in this conversation, you were saying something like, Oh, you know, your mindset and the way you think about the world and your mental health. You know, that's, that's really important. And that is exactly the sort of thing that you'd find in a self help section of a bookshop. And yet you rail against self, like self help as a concept.
Taimur
Okay.
Ali
You realize that, essentially, what you're advocating for is self help.
Taimur
Ah, sort of, Okay, I think, I think we sort of run into a limitation of language here, right? I think self help is a very multi dimensional thing. And there are, there are dimensions of dimensions of self help that I don't like. I just think, or at least my experience with self help was that maybe when I was around 15, or 16, I discovered the self help industry, like I started finding out, oh, man, all these people who are like older than me, and more experienced, they've like written about how to do life better. You know, this is incredible. I'd like I spent hours and hours reading this for weeks and weeks, I thought this is going to change my life. And so I'd read all these articles about like productivity and life advice and careers, and all this kind of stuff. And ultimately, I didn't really get that much value out of it. I could, because I think there's yeah, like I said, there's different dimensions of self help. There's, there's dimensions along which advice isn't really the bottleneck, for example, someone can tell me to go to the gym every day, just just like go to the gym, man. Yeah, I know that, you know, obviously. And and the same with I think it's the same with a lot of this like productivity stuff. So I think the self help I don't like is this sort of the life hack kind of approach, which I think is quite prevalent in Yeah, I guess, in the productivity sphere and things like that. Whereas for me, the challenge has always been my own personal discipline. And I haven't really found any advice that can actually help me with that. I think that's just like an internal journey. So that that's my beef with self help. I don't have any beef with people trying to improve themselves. I think that's really important. I just have beef with like, certain slices of self help. Where, Yeah, it's the I think it's certain slices of it are dangerous, because it feels valuable, and it feels useful. Like you're spending time reading these things. Oh, well, I know all this stuff now. And it's actually not that valuable at the end of the day. So I feel like I've sunk a lot of time into self help. Don't get that much value of.
Ali
Okay. Right. Um, I have issue with this, this, this thing that you're saying, because what you're saying is that the advice is out there, but you are not very good at implementing the advice.
Taimur
Me personally. Yeah.
Ali
Yeah. Therefore, you're saying that you have beef with the advice. This does not sound legit. This sounds like me buying a cookbook and saying, Oh, well, I can't be bothered to cook. Therefore cookbooks are a waste of time. And fair enough for me getting a cookbook might therefore be a waste of time. But for me to rail against the industry of cookbooks, because I personally don't know how to use a kitchen is completely unacceptable. And sure, you might say that productivity advice hasn't worked for you. I think it's worked absolutely wonders for me these these books that you would find in the Self Help section of the library, or in the entrepreneurship section, which is probably another section you would rail against those that have completely changed my life and allowed me to build my brand, my passive income, my whatever. Because I think I'm pretty good at implementing the advice that they offer. When Tim Ferriss tells me to do something in his book or on his podcast 100, 125 different times, I'll probably do it, except meditation, which I haven't managed to do yet. But that's a high measure thing that I need to I need to start work on. And it's unfair for you to rail against self help, because you personally don't know how to follow it. Just like it would be unfair for me to rail against the stronglifts a weightlifting program, because I personally am unable to follow because I'm not disciplined enough.
Taimur
I think that's a fair point. I feel I feel a bit personally attacked right now.
Ali
Okay, let's move on. We can talk about self help another time. The second thing I was going to talk about was this, this kind of goes back, this idea of measure goes back to the reason. The reason we started this podcast almost because our initial thing was that we want to think more about things that we think people should think more about.
Taimur
Right?
Ali
If that makes sense.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And things like how you, things like your relationships, how you communicate, social skills, humor, things like that.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
These are all very high measure items.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
If you could do something that would improve your social skills by even to 1 or 2%.
That would be game changing over the long period over the long run
Taimur
Yeah. and normal people in inverted commas would find it weird. Still find it weird when people read books about social skills, or charisma, or humor be like, you know. I once downloaded this book on Kindle called The Comic Toolbox: How to be Funny Even when You're Not. And one of my friends Jake, discovered like, it came up with my Goodreads, like, screenshotted and sent it to like our friendship friends whatsapp group like, "Haha, look what Ali was reading". And yeah, it's fine. That's fine. It's just banter. But I feel like the subtext behind that is that it's weird to read a book to try and actively improve your humor.
Yeah.
Ali
Which is, I think just goes to show the bias that we have against against this sort of stuff, because we just don't realize how just how high measure.
Taimur
low magnitude, if that makes sense.
Ali
You know, although it's pretty high magnitude when someone laughs at your joke.
Taimur
That's pretty high magnitude, there's actually--
Ali
One of the most high magnitude feelings in the world.
Taimur
There's nothing quite as nice as like making a joke at a dinner table and that whole table bursts out. It's incredible. It's so so good.
Ali
Anyway, how do we get to this? Yeah, so humor, high measure.
Taimur
Humor is high measure of course.
Ali
Any form of social skill, any form of voice, any form of physical health, mental health. These are all very high measure items.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Should we start wrapping this to a close? So we've talked about your measure theory?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Do you want to quickly summarize, summarize it, and then I'll talk a bit more.
Taimur
Sure. So I think different events in our life sort of contribute different value in different ways to us, some of these events are like, let's call them high magnitude, but low measures, this might be like having a really nice meal. It's really, really nice while it lasts, you know, you have this burst of pleasure or whatever. But it's low measure, once it's over, it's sort of over and you're not getting more value out of it. Other things are very quite low magnitude, but quite high measure things like having a nice bin, for example, it's never going to make your day but use it a lot. And so it does contribute a lot of value to your life. And what we've we've tried to do here I sort of think of other high measure things in our lives that might not be obvious to us that is probably worth investing in. It seems like the list right now is I think: voice, speaking, mental health and sort of mental well being, that's becoming more conventional now; voice and speaking I think are still unconventional for normal people.
Ali
Social skills, human --
Taimur
Yeah, social skills, humans.
Ali
Pretty much anything that changes the way you interact with other people.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
It's gonna be pretty high measure. So then just like in terms of wrapping this up on a on a more lighthearted note that might actually be actionable, because I'm a big fan of actionable advice. Apart from the bin and the backpack, are there any other high measure physical items in your life that that you've that you value spending money on, because of their measure?
Taimur
Because of their measure? I think jeans are really important. Jeans are sort of a staple part of my outfit. I basically wear the same pair of jeans every single day. I don't wash them. I wear them, I'll wear them until they essentially fall apart. And so like I'm wearing these jeans for like 8 to 12 hours a day, every single day. Thet's a, that's like super high measure. And so yeah, whenever I'm buying a new pair of jeans, I really don't think too much about how much it costs. I think when it comes to clothes, there is a point after which you're actually not paying for any any extra value. Like if you're getting some brand or whatever. I'm not really into that. But I think like investing in jeans and trainers as well, like I wear those almost constantly.
Ali
Which brand of jeans you tend to go?
Taimur
I don't know, it's not, I think it's called Only and Sons or something. There's no particular brand, but like it just fits really nicely. So I think, yeah, for me it's worth, like having a pair of jeans that I really love because like every day I put them on. Okay. Yeah, I'd agree with that. When I was in like, I think up until third year, I would buy Zara, there's a jeans from Zara for 5.30 pounds. Yeah.
Ali
And they'd always be, yeah, they'd be a pair of jeans, that'd be alright. But then in fourth year, I think I discovered AllSaints jeans. And they've got just a perfect amount of like elastication in them and make them feel really comfortable. And that there was a period for about a week or so where we accidentally swapped jeans because of similar size. And I was like, Oh, these jeans just not nice. And then when you gave me mine back, I was like, Oh, thank God for these jeans. And that made me really appreciate that yes, every every 18 months, once my jeans fall apart because of the back pocket, it gets screwed. I'm just going to spend another 80 or 90 pounds at AllSaints. They could have my money. I don't even care to wait for the student discount yield to come on. It's such a high measure item. I wear them for so long every single day. It really does not matter how much money I spend in a pair of jeans.
Taimur
Yeah, jeans are amazing investment.
Ali
I've heard other people say things like high thread count of bedsheets. Which is like somewhere or like you like Merino wool socks? Supposedly stuff like this, like, according to those Reddit threads that what's what's the most unconventional investment in your life that's actually provided lots of value.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
Things like these are also high measure. So maybe people are just saying things that are high measure, but without quite having the vocabulary for this.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
I wonder if I can think of anything else.
Taimur
I think another sort of high measure thing, which isn't really a physical thing is just sort of your, your workflows for different things that you do quite often.
Ali
Ah, right.
Taimur
So in, in, in the, if you work in tech, for example, if you do coding of any sort, there are like various tools that you use just to do your job, like you write all this code. And then you have to use these tools to, for example, collaborate with other people and things like that. And that's that, that, for me has always been something I've heavily under invested in. I never, I've never really tried to sit down and spend like a day just really getting to grips with my code editor, like learning all the keyboard shortcuts, all the things like that. And honestly, if I if I do do that, at some point, to be honest, I should just do it tomorrow, because it's so high measure, it'll make me I probably significantly more productive whenever I'm doing anything to do with coding. Another thing, if you're, if you're in tech is GitHub. This is sort of a tool that lets you collaborate with other people on projects. And so every time you have to like, upload a change that you've made to your project, you have to do it through this thing called GitHub. And like getting better at using GitHub, and like learning all the commands and learning how to do everything was going to do this would make a massive difference to your life. I, I have heavily under invested in this. And so every time I run into like an issue with GitHub, I have to like, ask someone about it, or Google it, whatever. And if I just like taking the time to spend a day or two really getting to grips with this, you know, three years ago or something, my life would be probably better.
Ali
Yeah, I agree. 100%. I actually wrote a blog post on I think this was like the second or third post on my blog in like, 2016, about how Alfred, this productivity app for the Mac has changed my life because it just lets you, you know, press command and spacebar and then you can type anything you want. You can search files, you can open apps, you can pretty much do anything, you can create custom custom workflows, custom shortcuts. And the the point I was trying to argue in this blog post is that every time I open a file, if it's you know, if I can save even three seconds, every time I do that, that is just gonna add up just so much save time over my life.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
That is absolutely worth doing. And people will be like, Oh, why would you spend that 7.99 a month on this on this? They'll be like, mate, do you know how much time I'm saving with this with this piece of software?
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
It's like It's like 20 quid for the whole year's license or something like that. But yeah, I agree in investing in workflow is just incredible. And like, every time if I learn a new shortcut in Final Cut Pro, my video editor, it's gonna save me time.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
And time is our only is our most valuable, non renewable, non renewable resource.
Taimur
Yeah. So I think it's really valid. Like, think about the workflows that you have in your sort of day to day life. Whether that might be in your job, was a hobby you have on the side, or just like sort of your morning routine and things like that, the things that you sort of do everyday quite regularly. If you can improve those a little bit, then it's gonna add up to a lot of change over the long period.
Ali
Cool. So that's it for this episode. Thank you very much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. If you liked it, then please leave us a review on iTunes. I think that's the only review platform for podcasts these days.
Taimur
Yes.
Ali
Yes, please do leave us a review.
Taimur
I do have one. One more thing I'll talk about.
Ali
Oh, sorry.
Taimur
I'd like to talk about your mini rant at the middle of this podcast about v railing against self help. Where did that come from? I didn't really -- I agree, I do sort of rail a bit against self help in general. Why? I haven't really been doing it during this conversation. It kind of came out of nowhere. I haven't really seen you so impassioned. You were genuinely, you were genuinely triggered in that moment.
Ali
It's because I felt personally attacked.
Taimur
By what?
Ali
By your because when you were saying these things that "Oh, well. You know, there's all these productivity advice you like this one simple productivity hack".
Taimur
I didn't say it during this episode. I said that in response to your rant.
Ali
No. No. But you said, No, that's what you said first, and then I gave my rant about how it was unacceptable for you to not like cookbooks.
Taimur
Oh okay.
Ali
And the reason of doing that because I was thinking back to all my weekly email newsletters, and how many about maybe 25% of those are about, you know, simple productivity hacks. For example, when you know, putting your phone across the room from you, when you're going to bed, you would, that's a simple productivity hack.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
It changed my life.
Taimur
It actually do.
Ali
Things like, you know, this rule I set for myself that I'm not allowed to watch TV on my own. I have to watch with other people. That is, again, completely changed the game. It's allowed me to do so much more with my time. Time that would have been otherwise completely squandered.
Taimur
But why.... I get it, you're right, you're right. I'm wrong.
Ali
Yes.
Taimur
I'm the twat.
Ali
Yes. Thank you.
Taimur
Well, I'm curious as to why you were so impassioned. Like, nothing gets you riled up. You're, you're you literally don't care about anything enough to get that emotional about it. I've, I don't see you like this very often.
Ali
In fairness, I was feeling the emotion to an extent because I realized that I could, as soon as I realized the cookbook rant (laughter).
Taimur
Yeah, let's kick him while he's down (laughter)
Ali
Exactly. 100%. It's kind of like with David Mitchell. Once once he recognizes that. Oh, he's got a rant coming up.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
..Full on goes to town on this rant.
Taimur
Yeah.
Ali
"You're saying. Just because you haven't got a cookbook. That's because you haven't got a kitchen doesn't mean cookbook is of any value."
Taimur
That's that's a really good impression.
Ali
Thank you.
Taimur
All right. Fair.
Ali
Working on it. And hence the rant.
Taimur
I get it. Well played. You got me 1-0.
Ali
1-0. We'll keep track of the score for the next episode. So thank you for watching. Please leave us a review on iTunes. Email us at hi@notoverthinking.com. If you want to chat, we reply to everything. We still reply to everything, aren't we?
Taimur
Yeah, it might take like a day or two sometimes.
Ali
A day or two. Yeah.
Taimur
If I haven't replied to your email it's probably because I sor of saw it and then was hoping to reply, but then forgot. I will probably go thr ugh my emails at one point and reply to everyone. So sorry about that if that has happe
Ali
Yes. All right. So thank you very much for for listening. We hope you have a fantastic week ahead and yeah. Bye.